Hi,

I was once labeled a "well-known blue troll" (by BenH personally), so i was considerably very happy about the announcment of the MorphOS Team and Genesi to bring MorphOS to the Efika Mainboard.

I see this as a big chance for MorphOS to reach a wider audience and to really build a foundation for the future of this system. But i'm not here to celebrate that event with dancing bananas nor do I want to stir up troubles or generate hard feelings of any kind. I was just thinking how this could move the Amiga platform in general and OS4 specifically ahead aswell and felt the need to write it down to share my opinion and hopefully catch some of you.
This post is about MorphOS, so please dont argue i havent warned you, but i guess you'll quickly notice why I do so: because everything COULD apply for OS4 too, just replace MorphOS with OS4 and you'd be done, however theres a small thing preventing this from happening, so it actually CANT, but some words on that later.

As already mentioned, I see the Efika as a great chance for MorphOS to get a wider userbase, especially from outside the 'ever-since' shrinking Amiga community, and therefore getting closer to what should be (and probably is) every amiga users dream since the demise of Commodore: a growing market.

Since I own a Pegasos I've presented MorphOS to quite a large number of collegues and friends and i can generally say that:

a) many play with the thought to get another computer apart from their main system for certain tasks

b) there is generally an interest in alternative operating systems (even apart from Linux and MacOS).

All of them were pretty buffled by the way MorphOS operates on its considerably low-end hardware, and amazed about the many features and possibilites of the OS aswell as its native and legacy amiga application. But in the same way as before, I could filter out two arguments why they dont consider joining this scene (for now):

a) paying 500¤+ for a mainboard alone is too much for people who just want to have an additional machine for certain tasks. Hence, it might be even too much for someone as a primary system.

b) the hardware characteristics arent outstanding, means it is not 'geeky' enough for ppl to consider spending some extra cash for it.

Both points getting adressed by the Efika mainboard. With a price of actually 160¤ (excl. VAT) it already is an affordable piece of hardware and it might get significantly cheaper when its produced in larger volumes, making complete MorphOS-based systems for 250¤ and even below possible and.. the Efika has some unoverseeable outstanding characteristics, namely is power consumption and size.
Combined, the Efika is quite interesting for someone outside the userbases of the supported operating systems, as you can realize ideas, hardly possible before because of certain limitation (in terms of hardware, software, availability, price).
So, the ultra-small, completely silent, almost no power-consuming: Audio/Video-Player, Filesharing-, FTP-, HTTP-, etc Server or whatever someone may think of, can be realized, but of course when running a full-blown Linux installation it will be noticeably slower than on a standard desktop machine.

That is where MorphOS can draw a lot attention on itself. It doesnt perform unacceptable slow for that regard, but surprisingly fast.
Lets take somebody who gives it a try: he will probably pretty soon notice (that could be right after the 5 sec. boot ;) that there is something special about this operating system. After doing his first step in this alien environment, he might find out that there is a vibrant and very helpful user community, helping him to configure the system and getting used to the basics, solving his problem etc. Next he'll notice that theres quite a lot of software developed despite the fact he never heard anything of it before and that there are already thousands of programs available, a complete environment..
Will this user get dragged into what someone here might sum up as the 'amiga spirit' ? to what extend? will he drag others into it? ;)

I dont know, for sure..but i'm convinced that with the Efika could create a sustainable market for MorphOS, where commercial development makes sense. And that is, what i see as the basic thing needed to be established in order to have a prospering environment (eg. users, developers, dealers).

I do see a great chance for MorphOS to establish itself and (to get back to what the sites focus is about) also for OS4.Yet, there is a pretty small stopping gap preventing this from happening for OS4 aswell. It is called the Amiga License Scheme (and was introduced right a week after Hyperion officially annouced to support "any suitable hardware" including the Pegasos).
So if OS4 makes any progress in that regard (the 'hardware issue'), solely depends on Amiga Inc. like for all these past years, and hopefully they take the right decision this time and not miss that chance once again.

So why am I repeating this old shoe here, while I should perfectly know that its not in our hands and none of our business anyways to decide what happens.
Well..the thing is, i think it IS our decision and i must admit i really wonder if ppl are aware of this situation, when i read through some of their posts.No matter what a group of ppl want in general, as long as it can be realised technically and economically there'll be high-likely a company doing it.
But the Amiga community is even more and this circumstance did already draw the attention of market analysts on it, when they speak about organised or self-improving communities and who see these kind of communities as major assets for companies willing to establish products for these or tangiable markets.
Btw. AFAIR not all members of the MorphOS-team were convinced of a success of MorphOS on Efika, apart from the unclear financing. Yet many Users requested it and Genesi and the MorphOS-Team finally came to an agreement. Why shouldnt this work for OS4 aswell, just think about it..you decide ;)

I personally think an ideal solution would be if OS4 utilizing OpenFirmware and come as OEM just like MorphOS to every Efika sold or being avaiable for download.
Then everyone could test out the different systems and make his choice. It would furthermore establish a united community again, where all 'flavors' could live
in harmony (think about the guy in the alien world again, who finds a species moaning and bitching around..guess hes happy when hes back on earth ;) and work together on moving the platform forward. As strange as this may sound, this has been common practise ever since.

As for the concerns i've read about the identity of the system I have an idea floating around. The Efika seems to be a cutom form-factor, so a special case needs to be designed for it anyways. I think that gives a good opportunity to give the system an 'identity' (like fe a MacMini or an a500 has).
Why not make a design competition in both 'camps' to come up for an individual Amiga and MorphBox (?) case. Then everyone can get what he want and still run the other OSes if he like to :-}

Just wanted to share this. Please dont take offence and enjoy yourself.

Regards,

logain


edit: changed topic and some words slightly. I leave it as it is now.

Last edited by lgn on 26-Nov-2006 at 09:24 PM.
Last edited by lgn on 26-Nov-2006 at 02:33 AM.

@lgn

if morphos will run on efika mainboard my guess is that the aos4.0 will not, hyperion and ainc will not allow this...

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I was a ZX Spectrum owner....

@lgn

I do not think that anyone will really disagree that combining the Morphos community, and the Amiga community would be a good thing (TM)

However, the fact remains that Amiga Inc. will determine who gets a license and who wont, and the way Genesi has behaved in the past, and seems to be repeating now, does not engender confidence.

My emails with BBRV have shown me that he is not interested in doing what has been clearly stated needs to be done to gain a license, and it is my belief he has not changed his position, despite how he portrays otherwise.

I doubt us putting pressure on Amiga Inc. will force them to change thier position either but you are of course most welcome to try.

Of course there may be a third alternative, that Genesi license or do whateve they need to do to produce the "official" board, whatever that may be, when it finally does come along, and support morphos on that. I think this tactic probably has a higher chance of success than any other.

Why is it that the "Amiga side" always is the one that has to go over to the "Genesi side"

Why dont they try coming to this side for a change.
Morphos on the A1, morphos on the Micro, or the SAM or the Panda or whatever comes available.Genesi licensing the hardware and producing it.

Last edited by IonMane on 26-Nov-2006 at 02:52 AM.

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@IonMane

The impression I get is that this Efika mobo is a likely modified version of a design by some company whose whole business is making runs of mobos for various companies, and that the company selling it under the Efika name basically just contracted out the work to that mobo company, the mobo having been adapted from one of that mobo company's standard designs.

So, why can't some other company just go to that same mobo-pressing company and have them devise a new mobo identical to the Efika except that it has a different ROM on it, and maybe has some other minor changes, and simply market it under a newly-devised brand name as an OS4 machine?

I've been thinking that ever since I first saw the Ekika being offered as a possible MorphOS machine... and I kinda get the impression that that's what @Ign and friends have been thinking, too...

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"I love peacenicks, they're so easy to conquer." --Ivan J Ironfist, the Dictator

@NomadOfNorad

As I understand it, the board is designed and proced by BPlan which is either owned by genesi or in some kind of extremely close partnership. Hard to tell with these private companies. All thier hardware seems to go through Genesi anyway.

As a result of this, it seems that Amiga Inc. wont, if you believe the anecdotal evidence, grant someone attempting to do this a license,for reason of thier own which may be "supporting thier competitor"

It has been claimed that someone has tried this before, and I must admit I have thought along those lines myself on a couple of occasions.

Of course, the reverse idea I have just had is: Why could not the morphos team port thier OS to whatever hardware is eventually produced for AOS4 and thereby circumvent the whole issue completely?

I have discussed this idea here

Last edited by IonMane on 26-Nov-2006 at 06:24 AM.

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@IonMane

I think Bill McEwen's thoughts on licensing is more serious than "anecdotal evidence".
http://www.amiga.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6955&page=1

10. "Getting a licence for Amiga, Inc IP seems to be impossible due to unresponsiveness. Could you outline the procedure, requirements, or, possibly, details of getting a licence?"

Bill McEwen -- It is certainly not impossible as we have signed more than one contract for our IP and there will be some products coming out later this year from some third party vendors that will show that to be the case.

The process is simple really. Let us know how you want to use the IP, we will then send you some questions, take a look at areas where we may have already licensed the IP and then begin working with you to determine if it can work and makes sense to move forward.

There must be a clear understanding however that we are looking for people and businesses that currently have revenues that can support this business. We request a business plan, budget and current revenue figures that are at least $ 500,000.00 per year in revenue.

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Men who have girlies in their avatars are Girliemen!

@lgn

Quote:

I was once labeled a "well-known blue troll" (by BenH), so you can guess i was considerably very happy about the announcment of the MorphOS Team and Genesi to bring MorphOS to the Efika Mainboard.

You probably are a blue troll, so perhaps if this is your second chance you should use it to post something intelligent and beneficial for everyone instead of just trolling, right?

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Men who have girlies in their avatars are Girliemen!

@IonMane

The A1(including the mikro) is a dead product, only very few were made none more will be made again, and the HW is far from pefect. Porting MorphOS to these would be a waste of time.

The "Sam" might at some time actually work (we just have to wait and see), so porting any OS to it is impossible. Wether the board with it's rather expensive design (on-board-gfx and other goodies) will ever be marketable outside "Amiga" is questionable, but absolutly mandatory to make licencing the HW an option.

Panda doesn't exist, the only thing that exist is a UDTech-board+sticker thats planned to go through a complete redesign before becomming the real "Panda". Rest can be copied from paragraph above.

But than it makes me wonder why people who critize Genesi to be acting unproffesional would consider Troika an alternative....

I'm sure the MorphOS-team would consider porting to any "red" HW if that is actually available and makes sense, but sofar none of that is looking to happen soon.

I also remember Ainc. stating again and again that they are not a HW-company. Add to that they have never shown any real interest in AmigaOS (only when it allowed them to get some "free" money), and one has to wonder why they don't just take a step back.

Hyperion porting OS4 to HW x, and than HW x failing to make that 500000$ wouldn't cost AInc a single ct, so why not just give Hyperion full control and cash in a fixed amount per copy sold ?

Also were do all these demands come from ? 1st it was supposed to be free, only with some quality-assurance tests to be passed. Than it was suddenly required to "open the books" and compulsory bundling. Later Hyperion asked for 20000$ (or was that Euros?) per port.
And now it's 500000$ revenue.

None of that stopped them talking positivly bout projects that would clearly fail (if not all) of these demands.

Dunno, maybe it's AInc and Hyperion battling bout the few breadcrumbs OS4 is likely to generate in the near future, but also maybe it could be that AInc don't want to give licence to anyone in order to keep the brand "clean" and making more on a potential sell-out.


AHT failed to get a licence.
ACK failed to get a licence.
Troika seems to have problems getting a licence.
The italians still believe they can get a licence, but have sofar failed to get one.
It was tried to get a licence for PPC-Macs, as it was tried (by a 3rd party) to get one for Pegs, but again no success.

I'm somehow sure Genesi could aggree to the most absurd demands but would still not be able to get a licence.

Last edited by Kronos on 26-Nov-2006 at 11:01 AM.

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- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@lgn

Quote:

I personally think an ideal solution would be if OS4 utilizing OpenFirmware and come as OEM just like MorphOS to every Efika sold or being avaiable for download. Then everyone could test out the different systems and make his choice. It would furthermore establish a united community again, where all 'flavors' could live in harmony (think about the guy in the alien world again, who finds a species moaning and bitching around..guess hes happy when hes back on earth ;) and work together on moving the platform forward. As strange as this may sound, this has been common practise ever since.

I think it would indeed be fantastic if MorphOS and OS4 could run on the same hardware, but I doubt this is going to happen on Genesi hardware. Hopefully it might happen on some of the other planned hardware.

@madtrekker

Quote:

I think it would indeed be fantastic if MorphOS and OS4 could run on the same hardware, but I doubt this is going to happen on Genesi hardware. Hopefully it might happen on some of the other planned hardware.

What about having OS4 running together with MOS on some already existing hardware for a start? A triple-boot of OS3.9, MOS Powerup *and* OS4.0 on an BPPC/CSPPC would certainly be quite nice. It would be a great proof that both MOS and OS4 can happily live together (at least on a harddisk) .

From today's blog (a useful tool in documenting information and views): Likewise, we do not think it is the processor, whether we have open or closed source, and we definitely don't think it is a choice between one AmigaOS or another...

Indivisible Community

Be an Amiga, be first.

R&B

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genesi

@Kronos

Quote:

Also were do all these demands come from ? 1st it was supposed to be free, only with some quality-assurance tests to be passed. Than it was suddenly required to "open the books" and compulsory bundling. Later Hyperion asked for 20000$ (or was that Euros?) per port. And now it's 500000$ revenue.

Indeed.

Quote:

None of that stopped them talking positivly bout projects that would clearly fail (if not all) of these demands.

But that's all there is, and all it ever was. Talk, talk, talk, talk. Only empty words.

And the ones *actually doing something*, the ones *actually delivering* gets the "but it isn't teh reel!!1!" cries from a few loudmouthed zealots that are mental slaves under a corporate brand.

@takemehomegrandma

Once again, here is a discussion about how why etc but constructive and you come along throwing names about and insulting people with your generalizeations. Funny how it is that you scream louder then most when people get sick of it and you wonder why some of us dont want genesi\morphos around.

Way to go to build on that spirit of co-operation again !

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@bbrv
I really like the Efika and will probably buy one in the new year. I am not trying to be rude or troll but I really do not know what you are talking about in your blogs, they just baffle me!

@Radfoo

if your gonna buy an efika then do that but there is no need to shout it out on aw.net. becouse efika dont run an amiga os and at this time have nothing to do with amiga at all, probably will not ever run amiga os at all.. if you want that morphos/genesis solution that bad go talk about it on the morphos/genesis sites.... we dont need to hear about it here...

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I was a ZX Spectrum owner....

@d0c
er, thanks pal.

FYI. I already own an A1-XE and am quite happy with it, no reason why I can't own both though!

@d0c

Quote:

we dont need to hear about it here...

What kind of "We" are you talking about, d0c? This one? Stop telling others what they are allowed to say/post here.

@Radfoo

Don't mind about d0c's post, his only purpose is trolling (as you can already see from the number of abuse reports that he received).

Last edited by hatschi on 26-Nov-2006 at 01:51 PM.

@Radfoo

Quote:

I am not trying to be rude or troll but I really do not know what you are talking about in your blogs, they just baffle me!

Is it any wonder that some of us get frustrated and dont trust him after many repeated attempts to get a straight answer from him?

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@IonMane

Quote:

Is it any wonder that some of us get frustrated and dont trust him after many repeated attempts to get a straight answer from him?

Good that we have McEwen, isn't it? A man that doesn't talk but acts. A man that has never let us down and that has never made any false promises.

@hatschi

Did I say anything about him? I dont believe I did.
Has he posted in this thread, don't believe he has.
So whats he got to do with the behaviour of BBRV what he says?
What does he have to do with Efika?
What does McEwen have to do with this thread or anything that has been said here.

Oh damn, I just went and fed the trolls.

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