I have recently discovered that the Wii is not 100% backwards compatible with the GC.

The game BMX:XXX does not work.
From a developer with access to the Nintendo SDK, I have found out that Wii accesses memory differntly than the GC.

Notable differences:
GC's ARAM runs at 81MHz and was 16MB in size of type SDRAM.
Wii's ARAM runs at 487.5MHz and is 24 MB in size of type 1T-RAM MoSys.

They essentially moved the GC's ultra fast main memory onboard into the gpu.

The GC's main memory is 24MB of 487.5MHz 1T-RAM.
The Wii's main memory is 64MB of GDDR2 (or is it GDDR3), clock speed unknown.

Nintendo has just recently released an SDK that supports OpenGL2.0. The GC's SDK supported OpenGL1.1 and the initial Wii SDK was OpenGL1.2.

Nintendo includes more hardware banging API's in both called the GX libraries. The Original GC TEV was able to Handle 8 Textures thru 16 Stages in a Single Pass thanks to the GPU's internal 3MB cache... Each Stage can apply multiple "Functions" to the Texture - examples of TEV stages would be bump-mapping or cel-shading... By comparison the Xbox "Hardware Shaders" could handle 4 textures and 4 Stages... The advantages of onboard gpu cache were carried over into the Xbox 360's gpu (also made by ATI) in the form of 10MB of embedded memory in MS's 360 gpu.
The enhancements to the Wii are unknown but I would expect a little more of everything, if not doubled. Again these are fully programmable shaders, not pre-packaged hardware shaders. By this nature, most developers never took advantage of it.

The Nintendo GC's cpu improved upon SIMD capabilities over traditional G3-class processors by adding 38 SIMD instructions. These are vector processing commands. The Wii cpu has an addition 50+ commands over the GC chip. What they are for are unknown so far. The GC version removed the 64-bit integer processing unit in your typical G3-class processor and added 2 32-bit processing units hence could process 2 at once at the cost of precision...that was not needed for your typical game. Again, enhancements in the math-processing capabilities of the cpu are unknown, but assumed to be enhanced.

Now that the Wii is a commercial success, a couple of middleware engines are being ported to the Wii to take advantage of these features...FINALLY. One company is even porting the Unreal 3.0 engine for a game. Note: Red Steel was made with the UnReal 2.5 engine.

When looking at the Wii hardware physically, the Hollywood package was also done on a 90nm wafer (as was Broadway and Cell), however, Hollywood is propotionally over twice as big when the die-shrink from 180nm is taken into account when compared to the Flipper of the GC. The DSP inside Hollywood is a Nintendo design and I believe it is there that contains some physics-processing capabilities...

In the end, the Wii is not simply GC x 1.5... In some cases it's GC x 1.5, 2.0, x 3.0. I believe the issue with the backwards compatibility may be due to the extra speed of the ARAM that probably throws the opening animation video out of sync in some way. Factor 5, when they were Nintendo exclusive developers, developed a Divx codec for the GC and has licensed that codec to other developers. It may even be part of the SDK... I assume this codec does not suffer from the compatibility issue of custom video/audio playback that the developers of BMX:XXX employed.

I have a library of 60 Gamecube games and will have to try to look for some that use streaming video playback to see if more games suffer from this minor incompatibility. Can anyone else do their own experiments?

Last edited by Lou on 20-Mar-2007 at 12:35 PM.

I stand corrected. The game doesn't run in progressive scan and you have to set the Wii to 480i to play the game.

@Lou

Thanks for the nice GC vs. Wii technical overview

In an interview (I think at IGN.com) Factor5's Julian Eggebrecht stated that the WIi really could do much better if the other developers took better advantage of its capapbilities (same holds for the GC). If I look at Zelda an that it is more or less only using the GC power, I hope there will be much better game graphics etc. on Wii in the future. But I also like the comic/cartoon/cell-shade style games and for these I think Wii has more than enough power Another big plus for the Wii is IMHO also that the games are not as expensive as the ones for X360/PS3 Wario sells for 35Euro and Zelda for 45 at amazon.de ATM I think upon release most games still will sell for the "normal" 60, though. But PS3 games are up to 70

@fisk

Thanks.

Did I mention that the GC had more cpu cache memory than the Xbox or PS2?

Actually, if you buy Red Steel (underrated game by reviewers), you'll see better visuals than Zelda or even Resident Evil 4. It used the Unreal 2.5 engine and does take advantage of the advanced lighting and particle physics that the system is capable of. The visuals are good at first, but the deeper in the game you go, the better they get. I have never seen such natural beams of light before, but I don't play many FPS games, though the controls, once you get used to them, has made this FPS quite pleasant to play. For me, it's much more natural than mouse and keyboard. I don't understand the complaints with 180 degree turn speed. It happens quite fast and I challenge anyone to turn around faster in real life. Being able to flip 180 degrees in .1 seconds by a flick of a mouse is totally unrealistic to me as is jumping 6 feet in the air. This game is realistic.

I think early reviews about the controls were bad because reviewers themselves had little dexterity with the Wii Remote and Nunchuk. I had the same problem and put the game down for a couple of months. Now that I'm a nunchuck-weilding Wii blackbelt, I am gliding through this game quite pleasantly.

The key I think, to me, is to leave your remote hand on your lap and just aim with your wrist. No more shaky-ness that way, just pinpoint accuracy. People don't realize how much they shake then blame the controls for being bad.

On thing I'd like to see in the future: while twisting the remote with pistols is cool seeing your arm twist as well, I think the function should apply to all guns in a way but act as a LEAN so you can lean around corners instead rahter than fully exposing yourself.

Medal of Honor: Vanguard comes out next week and supposedly pushes the visual a bit farther. Though in some sections of Red Steel, I don't know how much farther 480p can be pushed beyond that, it was beautiful.

@Lou

I also found the Wii remote to be shaky, but the other day I finally bothered to go into the setup menu and realised you're supposed to callibrate the controller for position and sentitivity. Now it's a totally different experience and the controller works great.......awesome for shooting and no more shaking.

With Red Steel, for me the problem is the sword fighting. I actually wanted a game where I could use the controller as a sword, but Red Steel is simply not designed that way. For me, the attraction of the Wii is the immersive nature of the controller and I'd like the opportunity to use it so, not have the movements limited to wrist action (sort of a limited half way house). It's why the Wii Sports tennis and baseball are so good....you can put your whole arm into it

@fisk

Wii games seems actually just as expensive here in Norway as the newest xbox 360 games. There is also some older xbox 360 games that is actually quite a bit cheaper than wii games as well.

@Tomas

That's too bad. In the US they are $10 cheaper with a couple that are an extra $10 cheaper than that.

@Jules_s
When pointing a gun, people don't realize how a little twitch can throw your aim significantly off even in real life. As for sword-fighting, without resistance when contact is made, how can it ever be 1-to-1? If somebody blocks, you still follow through with your swinging motion while your character should not? To me the sword fighting improves through the game and is more of an action/reaction stagedy game as it is among true swordsmen in real life. Even in Red Steel, you can only wildly swing for so long before your character has to catch his breath. Some hit, most miss.

1-to-1 swordfighting will never happen. Atleast in a baseball game it can and you always follow through even when contact with the ball is made. I look forward to a "real" baseball game for the Wii. WiiSports Baseball limits your actual swing to straight across.

@fisk
The Wii's Zelda had 16x9 graphics and a longer draw distance. The longer draw distance is a good indication of having more speed and possibly memory to play with. Other than that, the detail level was all the same as on the GC. Expect the next Wii-exclusive Zelda to look like a proper Wii title.

Last edited by Lou on 22-Mar-2007 at 01:30 PM.

@Lou

Thanks for giving insight into Red Steel. I do not play FPS, though. My last attempt was Metroid Prime and I failed to complete it, tried 3 times from scratch and then gave up. Anyhow I quite enjoyed playing it (60+ hours) and it had tremendous graphics on the GC Spinter Cell Chaos Theory also was nice because it was not just dump FPS. I really enjoyed the 2 player mode here. Sad that the port of Double Agent is so bad.

Except Zelda I only own Rayman and Wario Ware (both made great fun together with friends).

Currently I am keeping an eye on Heatseeker, but not sure to by it. Mario Galaxy will be the next must have of course! And I think more interesting games are also on the way...

The next Zelda will take at least 2 years from now until release, I think...

What I also think about is that Nintendo might release a Wii2 with more power earlier than the other next-gen Consoles. And I think it will then also be not a 100x power update, maybe around 8 times for handling HD...

@all: The controller works even better in Zelda, where there is a further calibration menu. In Zelda aiming really is precise!

Last edited by fisk on 23-Mar-2007 at 08:15 AM.

Excite Truck is the best Wii game, IMHO. Totally addictive. The more realistic racing games got, the less interested I was (Gran Turismo? No thanks), but Excite Truck's insane speed, and absolutely crazy jumps make it brilliant fun.

Gamestation are doing it for £20 now so theres no excuse not to get it

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@Lou
Actually, if you buy Red Steel (underrated game by reviewers), you'll see better visuals than Zelda or even Resident Evil 4. It used the Unreal 2.5 engine and does take advantage of the advanced lighting and particle physics that the system is capable of. The visuals are good at first, but the deeper in the game you go, the better they get.

I just came to Tokyo (in the game I mean ) and I strongly disagree.

Even considering that the PAL version of RE4 doesn't support progressive scan (only NTSC GC do) and it even runs letterboxed, I find it faaaaar more detailed than Red Steel (which DOES support both progessive scan and real, fullscreen 16:9) in almost every aspect.

Maybe the graphics will get better going further (I've been told so by many different people) but at the moment there's nothing that could make me hope this will actually happen. I mean, not to the point to make RE4 look worse.

Red Steel's game engine also often drops many frames... To be honest I have yet to see a 60fps game on the Wii, which is a shame considering how good was the framerate in many games which ran on the good old GC.

Oh, please don't misunderstand me: I've bought the Wii PAL on launch day, and I love its potential; I also think that Excite Truck is at the moment not only the best Wii-exclusive title available, but an excellent arcade racer, too (far better than some so-called nextgen games which run on more powerful hw like X360 or PS3), but honestly I do not think Red Steel sets any benchmark, graphically speaking.

(PS: sorry for my english, it's not my native language)

Yeah - Excite Truck FTW - it is raw unadulterated fun! Excellent graphics too. I wish multiplayer mode offered a horizontal split rather than vertical. That's my only complaint. Oh and the Diamond level on Super Excite mode was really hard, but I did eventually beat it.

@Turrican3
I wasn't impressed through the first 25% of the game which is where you are now. When you get to places where reflection of the rooms are on the floor and natural light is coming in from windows, you'll see what I mean. I've never seen that stuff before. You can even read reviews where they say the game improves graphically as you get farther into it. Hang in there. Also, the characters don't have those blocky hands that alot of FPS games have.

I'm playing on a Samsung 50" DLP so maybe I notice more detail that would be washed out on a smaller 480i screen...

I plan on picking up The Godfather: Blackhand Edition this weekend.

@Lou
Well, it seems you're one of the persons who says the game actually improves later, too.

I will keep on playing, but I have a Zelda to finish before continuing Red Steel (I got all the "S" in Super Excite, this game was really absorbing, I stopped playing all my other Wii games just to unlock practically everything, it was like a drug: "just one more try, just one more try"!!!)

PS: my setup is not that bad, Panasonic plasma 37" (PV60 series) connected via component (480p)

@Turrican3

Quote:

Turrican3 wrote: @Lou Well, it seems you're one of the persons who says the game actually improves later, too. I will keep on playing, but I have a Zelda to finish before continuing Red Steel (I got all the "S" in Super Excite, this game was really absorbing, I stopped playing all my other Wii games just to unlock practically everything, it was like a drug: "just one more try, just one more try"!!!) PS: my setup is not that bad, Panasonic plasma 37" (PV60 series) connected via component (480p)

how have you progressed? does the game not look better?

@Lou
Sorry mate, I can't answer yet: I still have not completed Zelda.

Besides that, I'm starting considering selling Red Steel, my local Gamestop/EBGames would give me 25¤, which is not bad at all.

I'm not 100% sure at the moment, problem is that I just got Black for PS2, and now it's very difficult for me to go back to the highs and lows of RS's frame rate, not to mention its less-than-gamecube standards graphics.

Hey, it's still quite innovative as a FPS, but I'm afraid it was made in a rush: IMHO Wii can do much better than that (and I hope Metroid 3 will demonstrate it).

Regards

The problem I found with Red Steel is not the quality of the graphics (which I think are great but not groundbreaking), but in the finer details. Shoot someone in the leg and they can run away, shoot them in the arm 3 times and they die. I know it's a long time ago now (7 years) but the original Perfect Dark on the N64 had way better attention to detail in that respect than Red Steel, and so was (and still is) much more engrossing for me. Couple that with the uncoordinated leg movements of the characters which gives them a gliding quality, and I find it difficult to take it seriously in a way that Perfect Dark utterly captivated me.

I'm sure other FPSs will have better detail along these lines, but to me it's the biggest shame that this game was a great idea but never reached its full potential due to what seems to be laziness on the programming side. Metroid Prime 3 I'm sure will have phenomenal detail - just like the previous 2 - and should show off the Wii far better than anything before.

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@Daedalus
& Turrican

Yeah, it was made in about 8 months time before the dev kit was final. Even since launch, the dev kit has improved greatly.

All Wii launch games, and even the ones just recently released, have been rush jobs or quick Gamecube "ports". No one game uses all the Wii's features. Not even from Nintendo themselves.

This should start to change come June.

Anyway, that said, Red Steel is better than any FPS I've seen on the Gamecube. With all the delays to Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, I expect it to set a new standard that will be hard to beat.

In the meantime, I actually look forward to Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition. I beat the Gamecube one, but look forward to the higher resolution and true widescreen mode as well as the extra missions that were added to the inferior (graphically) PS2 version. On the PS2, it did run in widescreen mode but the resolution didn't seem as good as the 'Cube's nor did the texturing. The Gamecube version ran in 640x360. The Wii version will run in 852x480.

@Lou
Yeah, it was made in about 8 months time before the dev kit was final. Even since launch, the dev kit has improved greatly.

Yep, I've heard about that.


All Wii launch games, and even the ones just recently released, have been rush jobs or quick Gamecube "ports". No one game uses all the Wii's features. Not even from Nintendo themselves.

I'm a programmer but not a 3D expert. Having said that, I think everybody with minimum expertise in this area has seen Mario Galaxy in action will easily notice it's a completely different affair from what we've seen until now on the Wii.
I expect similar, high quality work will come more often in the future.


Anyway, that said, Red Steel is better than any FPS I've seen on the Gamecube. With all the delays to Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, I expect it to set a new standard that will be hard to beat.

As said I agree with your expectations about MP3, not (judging from what I've seen until now) for Red Steel.
Metroid is classified by many (including myself ) as a first person action rather than a FPS, but I think it can be compared to Red Steel graphically speaking and the latter is IMHO inferior to the Retro Studios masterpiece.


In the meantime, I actually look forward to Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition.

Me too!
But, I'm still not sure they're actually using the GC engine. I hope to be proven wrong (ingame pictures I can currently see on gaming websites are too small to judge) but I have the feeling it's actually a backport from the not-as-detailed PS2 version, with wiimote support.
That would be awful (and a shame), because RE4 graphics in real (not letterboxed!) 16:9 should look very very good, IMHO.

@Turrican3

Quote:

But, I'm still not sure they're actually using the GC engine. I hope to be proven wrong (ingame pictures I can currently see on gaming websites are too small to judge) but I have the feeling it's actually a backport from the not-as-detailed PS2 version, with wiimote support.

There's no chance they're gonna spend the time to *port* something when they have a working engine codebase that already runs on the hardware, seeing that the Wii is compatible to the GC. I hope they're gonna add proper 16:9 though. For your health and safety: Do not try the PC version, it's a crap PS2 port.

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@Lou

Who cares? This is an Amiga site, not a Nintendo site. Take the Nintendo talk to the proper site.

@AMiGR
There's no chance they're gonna spend the time to *port* something when they have a working engine codebase that already runs on the hardware, seeing that the Wii is compatible to the GC.

I hope you're right: those blurry PS2 textures really scare me!

I remember reading problem with GC was that its somewhat limited fillrate prevented Capcom from implementing a true 16:9, opting for a letterboxed approach instead.

It remains to be seen if the added Wii's horsepower is enough to just change some rendering parameters in the old GC engine, turning from letterbox to real 16:9.

If the Wii is really 2 to 3 times more powerful than GC (and I think that's true judging from the leaked specs) there should be no problems.


I hope they're gonna add proper 16:9 though.

Should have been already confirmed (luckily)


For your health and safety: Do not try the PC version, it's a crap PS2 port.

Ahah don't worry, my poor old Duron800 would run that stuff at 320 x 200 @ 5fps