@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote: I have been told it is pleasure to use on a PPC.

........

Quote:

After all we have been through to get OS4 are we going to let it die?

Not our descision to make.

_________________
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TheDaddy

"OS4 future isn't uncertain as we all know that development is ongoing..."

Do we?! And how much is that development worth if/when Amiga Inc wins in court?

"I think the future is PPC as it's found in the latest consoles, but maybe that is just me."

The technology behind these consoles are now several years old. The
next generation of Xbox will run a multi-core x86 CPU. I can garantee
you that. By running POWER and Cell, they are way too power-hungry.

So yes, it is just you.

Last edited by ironfist on 22-Mar-2008 at 12:23 PM.

My OS choice for the Natami

OS 3
Run all old 68k software so a very good choice to start with!
Will run blazingly, lightning fast on the Natami.

OS 4
Nice upgrade idea to PPC but its in a legal deadlock atm
As the OS4 ABI is close to OS3/MOS/AROS porting of OS4 apps to OS3/AROS is simple.
So even if OS4 might get killed by legal issues - the new applications could be relative easely moved to AROS or OS3.

MOS
Status is abandonware atm.
Luckely apps can be ported OS3 or AROS easely.
For example porting the MOS version of RobinHood to NATAMI, is just a 30 minute job.

AROS
Great choice. No legal risk, open source.
A 68k AROS version running on NATAMI is a great combination.
With this combination you will be able to run old games and apps natively
but also allow to run new apps that require more resources.

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@TheDaddy
I think your enthusiasm is again 'allowing' you to miss the point.

I'd love to see OS4 on Natami. As well as AROS and MOS, for that matter. The more options out there make it more appealing, to put it simply, and it would likely gain some sales it wouldn't otherwise.

I think anyone would be a fool to target Natami at _only_ OS4, however, and it also goes against the main point of the project - re-read the web site. The goal is an 'advanced Amiga' with backward compatibility. So, that means, yep, it's going to run, or be capable of running, 3.X.

That's Thomas' primary goal. While an add-on card may be made (I also seem to recall the wording of 'allowing thrid parties to create CPU cards..which might not imply Thomas would..), I find it unlikely for the project to 'discard their primary goal.'

If a PPC card were to be made available, I'd assume once again, the primary goal is 3.X compatibility.

If Hyperion and AI sort out their mess, and THEN port to Natami, after it's out and happily running 3.X, great. But I wouldn't make it a primary concern or expectation at this point.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote: That's Thomas' primary goal. While an add-on card may be made (I also seem to recall the wording of 'allowing thrid parties to create CPU cards..which might not imply Thomas would..)

There are concrete plan for upgrade cards.
Thomas wants to produce upgrade cards by himself.
If he would not , then he would put the expansion for it on the board in the first place.
That the slot is documented is only to allow other parties (ELBOX, BPLAN, etc) to create cards too.

I agree with you, that holding the breath for OS4 on the Natami is not a good idea as the future of OS4 is a bit uncertain.

If you would run OS then SAM would probably the best choice for it today.
You can buy the SAM today.

_________________
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@Zetr0
Some good questions there. Sounds like you are in a position to help Natami development, so I'd definitely recommend sending Thomas Hirsch (developer of the NatAmi) an e-mail, asking your questions: info@natami.net .

@bbrv
As far as I know from the Natami website the first developer prototypes will use a 68060, which is sensible as it helps get the machine out there quicker (also means you are only dealing with one unknown at a time, which should be SuperAGA first).

Coldfire is certainly worth considering. You may wish to speak with Oliver Hannaford-Day, a member of this website who was designing a Coldfire accelerator for the Amiga. I'm sure he'll have some useful information to contribute. You can send him a PM using this link:
Send Oli_hd a PM.

You can see pictures of the (unfinished) Coldfire accelerator here:
http://www.seal-amiga.co.uk/bigbash4.html

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote: Natami with PPC/Cell yes (even on a separate card), anything else NO, NO, NO.

Hard as it may be for you to understand, not every Amiga fan wants or needs OS4. I would only support a PPC accelerator card option, not built into the machine. For those who don't want OS4 a PPC CPU adds unneeded cost and forces use of OS4 or AROS. For those that do want OS4 they can buy the accelerator card.

Quote:

ironfist wrote: The technology behind these consoles are now several years old. The next generation of Xbox will run a multi-core x86 CPU. I can garantee you that. By running POWER and Cell, they are way too power-hungry. So yes, it is just you.

No ironfist, it is you that has it wrong. PPC/Cell CPUs are used in both Wii and PS3, making XBox360 the exception rather than the rule with x86.

@BigGun
Great summary of the different OS options for NatAmi. OS3 is by far the easiest choice to implement first. Where we go from there is uncertain, but OS3 will certainly do for now.

Quote:

wegster wrote: If Hyperion and AI sort out their mess, and THEN port to Natami, after it's out and happily running 3.X, great. But I wouldn't make it a primary concern or expectation at this point.

I agree completely.

@all
This annoying armchair hardware designer trait is showing again (not just in one of us). Can I stress again that this doesn't help. It seems to me that some people think if hardware is unreleased it is possible for them to redesign it by posting ideas on a website. Stop smoking crack. Look at the released information and base your judgements on what the machine is and not what you want it to be.

If you really want to build a new Amiga that is radically different from the Natami we currently know of I suggest you learn VHDL or Verilog and start work on the Minimig, which you can modify the design of as much as you want.

@Kronos

I simply won't buy something which can't run OS4, I have a million machines running OS3.9...

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@ironfist

>>Do we?! And how much is that development worth if/when Amiga Inc wins in court?

They will setle on something not even Amiga are that stupid...

>>The technology behind these consoles are now several years old. The
next generation of Xbox will run a multi-core x86 CPU. I can garantee
you that. By running POWER and Cell, they are way too power-hungry.

Well then, you keep you "fast" 266MHz piece of crap and I'll use Amikit on my quad cpu.

You can tell me whatever you want but Quake running on a 266MHz or a 2GHz is just not comparable...

_________________
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@wegster

>>I think anyone would be a fool to target Natami at _only_ OS4,

I never said Natami should be OS4 only, I said I would prefer it to run OS4 above anything else because I want and I like OS4, Aros is way unfinished, the only stop gap, for me would be, OS3.9 until OS4 is a possibility, other than that I might just as well stick Aros on my quad Intel machine which should give me way more speed than anything else.

>>however, and it also goes against the main point of the project - re-read the web site. The goal is an 'advanced Amiga' with backward compatibility. So, that means, yep, it's going to run, or be capable of running, 3.X.

That is FINE, I am just saying that it would be great to have OS4, it would be the next logical step., I'd assume once again, the primary goal is 3.X compatibility.

>>If Hyperion and AI sort out their mess, and THEN port to Natami, after it's out and happily running 3.X, great. But I wouldn't make it a primary concern or expectation at this point.

I am not saying is a primary concern, I am one of the first supporting the Natami in 060 OS3.9 form but I would trust and hope that OS4 reaches Natami PPC/Cell one day just because that would be an awesome machine.

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HenryCase:

"No ironfist, it is you that has it wrong. PPC/Cell CPUs are used in both
Wii and PS3, making XBox360 the exception rather than the rule with x86."

Please, read my post one more time. Where did I ever deny that
today's consoles are using POWER technology?


TheDaddy:

"They will setle on something not even Amiga are that stupid..."

Why would they settle, when they are certain they will win?

Last edited by ironfist on 22-Mar-2008 at 02:00 PM.

@HenryCase

>>Hard as it may be for you to understand, not every Amiga fan wants or needs OS4.

I don't find it hard to understand actually. I just find weird that a real Amigan would not want OS4 on the Natami in the future (if it ever happens). But I would actually like to ask all the members of amigaworld.net what you are saying.

Does any Amigan want or need OS4? Would anyone hate the idea of having OS4 on Natami in the future?

You'll see that you are wrong there. I am pretty sure EVERY Amiga fan wants or needs OS4.

I'll go further saying that not every Amiga fan wants or needs MOS/Aros and especially people on this forum are interested in OS4.

>>I would only support a PPC accelerator card option, not built into the machine. For those who don't want OS4 a PPC CPU adds unneeded cost and forces use of OS4 or AROS. For those that do want OS4 they can buy the accelerator card.

I don't mind if it's an add-on, I am just saying that given the option between a puny 266MHz cpu and a Cell I know which one I would go for.

But who are those people who don't want OS4? Tell me. OS4 is definately better than anything else, certainly better than Aros and OS3.9 so who doesn't want OS4?

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@ironfist

>>Why would they settle, when they are certain they will win?

If they win and they stop OS4 develpment (they are stupid) and NOBODY with REAL interest in the Amiga name would bother with Amiga or any dodgy OS they will try to feed us.

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@All

I am just saying that NOW I can run Amikit which is an advanced version of OS3.9.

I can run it on a 3.0GHz Quad processor with 8GB Ram, with either a nvidia or Ati dual gpu graphics card (if you want to go nuts you could run two X2 graphics cards in SLI or Crossfire mode to have the power of 4 graphics cards), installed on a 1TB SATA HD or a delicious 150GB Western Digital Raptor 10K, on top of Linux or Windows.

Why on earth would I use a slower machine?

Last edited by TheDaddy on 22-Mar-2008 at 02:17 PM.

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@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote: You'll see that you are wrong there. I am pretty sure EVERY Amiga fan wants or needs OS4.

Geeeeee...... your sounding more and more like one of those religious nutcases

You are not in a position to tell what "EVERY Amiga fan" wants or does not want, and the faster you get that notion out of your head the better.

Why are some peope the resitant to understand that these projects (Natami,Minimig,CloneA) are NOT about OS4 or PPC, but about the bringing the real Amigas (those produced between 1985 and 1997) a little bit closer to today (but without loosing the orginal spirit) ?

If you want Cell, G5 or a fast G4, go buy an PS3 or an old Mac, cos those or the only ones available for the forseeable future. You might also want to hope on Genesi,Acube or simailar building new legacy-free boards with these chips however unlikely that is.

Now offcourse we all know that OS4 won't be availbale for these anytime soon (probraly never), but thats not gonna change if we try to produce PPC-accels that will only sell a 1000 units (probraly far less).

As i allready wrote that limited number also rules out anything but SoC-style CPUs.

OS3.x is better than OS4 in atleast one regard, we will never run out of HW to run it (even if that might involve UAE), and parts of it can easily be replaced by newly-written components (see AFA-OS). Hmmmm.... actually thats allready 2 points ....

_________________
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- blame Canada

@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote: @All I am just saying that NOW I can run Amikit which is an advanced version of OS3.9. I can run it on a 3.0GHz Quad processor with 8GB Ram, with either a nvidia or Ati dual gpu graphics card (if you want to go nuts you could run two X2 graphics cards in SLI or Crossfire mode to have the power of 4 graphics cards), installed on a 1TB SATA HD or a delicious 150GB Western Digital Raptor 10K, on top of Linux or Windows. Why on earth would I use a slower machine?

Ok, so that means:
- you're only interested in Natami if it has a PPC card and runs OS4
- You also have zero interest in minimig or any other 'duplicate Amiga' then, to be consistent with your statements above, right?

There's nothing 'wrong' with wanting to run OS4 on Natami, but it's not their primary goal.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@TheDaddy

Quote:

You'll see that you are wrong there. I am pretty sure EVERY Amiga fan wants or needs OS4.

You are making erroneous assumptions there. For a start you have said that EVERY Amiga fan wants or needs OS4. I do not want or need it. A year ago, maybe. I had the cash for hardware and I was really keen to get hold of it.

Now I'm sick of it to be honest. The millions of dollars being spent on such a stupid legal battle has made me grow to resent the product itself. The OS has become less and less significant as it has less and less people developing for it because nobody can get hold of it!

You complain 'Aros is way unfinished', This may be true, but at least it's gaining momentum and developers, which is less than can be said for OS4.

For somebody who seems so keen on NatAmi, I can't help but feel that you've kind of missed the point!

@TheDaddy
Quote:

TheDaddy wrote: @Kronos I simply won't buy something which can't run OS4, I have a million machines running OS3.9...

Then don't buy Natami until it has a PPC accelerator and a OS4 license.

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote: Does any Amigan want or need OS4? Would anyone hate the idea of having OS4 on Natami in the future? You'll see that you are wrong there. I am pretty sure EVERY Amiga fan wants or needs OS4.

Hahaha, go and ask that question on the English Amiga Board (for example) and see what response you get. I'm with you by the way, I would like to run OS4, but I don't want to make Natami only for OS4 fans.

@ironfist
Quote:

ironfist wrote: Quote: HenryCase: "No ironfist, it is you that has it wrong. PPC/Cell CPUs are used in both Wii and PS3, making XBox360 the exception rather than the rule with x86." Please, read my post one more time. Where did I ever deny that today's consoles are using POWER technology?

Reread your post? Yes, let's do that...

"The technology behind these consoles are now several years old."
x86 is older than PPC. Of course there are new revisions of x86, just like there are new revisions of PPC, but your point is useless.

"The next generation of Xbox will run a multi-core x86 CPU. I can garantee you that."
You seem very sure of that. Granted it is likely next gen Xbox will use x86, but I could say it is equally likely that PS4 and the next Nintendo console will use the POWER/PPC/Cell family, so what difference does the Xbox technology make for the overall relevance of PPC?

"By running POWER and Cell, they are way too power-hungry."
Do you mean in terms of electricity consumed or computer processing power? I'm assuming you mean electricity consumed. Taking the Cell CPU for example. Currently it is manufactured at 65nm scale, but IBM have already demonstrated that they can manufacture chips at the 45nm scale (equal to Intel's Penryn CPU). Check out this recent announcement:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080207-ibm-shrinks-cell-to-45nm-cheaper-ps3s-will-follow.html

So what was the point of your post again ironfist?

@HenryCase

Quote:

HenryCase wrote: x86 is older than PPC.

The Otto and Diesel engines are about 100 years older than the Wankel-engine, but that doesn't mean that a current direct-injection with variable valves and whatnot can't be more modern that the Wankel used by Mazda ....

So whatever your point was, you missed it

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@wegster

>>Ok, so that means:
- you're only interested in Natami if it has a PPC card and runs OS4

In the near future yes.

Basically I want OS4 either on top of a mac mini (with an Amiga sticker on the apple), a SAM or hopefully on the Natami if PPC/Cell happens for it.

>>- You also have zero interest in minimig or any other 'duplicate Amiga' then, to be consistent with your statements above, right?

That is totally WRONG as I was one of the very first people to own a minimig, bothering to take pictures, writing a review, setting up a webpage and keeping a compatibility list up to date AND designing a case for it.

I am also in contact with the Natami team for other reasons so your statement is incorrect.

These were my words:
I can't see the point of using a 266MHz cpu when I can do the same things on my beefy pc. Also I would love to see OS4 for the Natami in the future because it makes sense. With a bit of luck Hyperion can carry on with their job and release more updates for it.

This IS NOT going to stop me buying a Natami (even the developer board) and running OS3.9 for a while but it would make me happy to have OS4 on it too.

>>There's nothing 'wrong' with wanting to run OS4 on Natami, but it's not their primary goal.

I can read that, I am talking in the future. Maybe all this talk is useless, on tuesday for example Amiga might win the trial, Hyperion stop developing OS4 and this discussion would be rendered futile.

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@BigGun

Quote:

BigGun wrote: @wegster Quote: wegster wrote: That's Thomas' primary goal. While an add-on card may be made (I also seem to recall the wording of 'allowing thrid parties to create CPU cards..which might not imply Thomas would..) There are concrete plan for upgrade cards. Thomas wants to produce upgrade cards by himself. If he would not , then he would put the expansion for it on the board in the first place. That the slot is documented is only to allow other parties (ELBOX, BPLAN, etc) to create cards too. I agree with you, that holding the breath for OS4 on the Natami is not a good idea as the future of OS4 is a bit uncertain. If you would run OS then SAM would probably the best choice for it today. You can buy the SAM today.

Thanks. I didn't realize Thomas had concrete plans for doing his own additional CPU modules.

Although at this point, it seems BBRV is 'pushing' for a Coldfire.. any idea if Thomas has any definite plans for a PPC module? One that worked both with 3.X and _potentially_ (if ported) OS4 would really be nice, plus be a unifier of sorts - being able to run all AOS 'variants' (AOS3.X, OS4, MOS, AROS) would really be pretty cool.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!