@Chain-Q

Quote:

because we're not Apple, we won't survive yet another CPU migration.

Are we surviving now? IMO we have nothing to loose to try.. I believe it's the route that most likely will increase the size of the community. Few people outside the current Amiga community will pay through the nose for inferior hardware..

Quote:

Bleh, again all these x86 crapola threads. Speaking for myself, i won't do any hobby coding for x86 again. But i know quite a few other programmers, who think/feel the same. I did x86 coding for years, when i was using OS/2, but not again. If PPC is dead, then nextgen Amiga systems are dead anyway, because we're not Apple, we won't survive yet another CPU migration.

Well, since very few people (except when doing some Altivec/SSE coding) touch any ASM today, I don't see where you code "for x86". Wether it is 68k, PPC, x86, ARM, whatever, you code for AmigaOS... but if I remember correctly you worked on a lot of low level stuff, so maybe this is different.

Anyway, Amiga has always been about that: hobby VS evolution. Back in 1992, users were against AGA... Then people were against graphics cards. Then people were against PPC. And now, well x86...

The difference with Apple is that the company has been leading innnovation and imposed its choices. On the Amiga choices weren't that good (history proves it), and well, the company isn't doing what it can to impose its choices... And today it seems even leading people are against innovation. So I think it's over...

Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 08:53 AM.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

My 20 Cents . . .

Becoming available for old PPC Mac is a good start for the moment but what about the future ? ? ?

Going x86 is a lose lose for OS4. Just the number of drivers having to be written has trouble tattooed all over it. Then there is the competition with the other OS's. Not to mention the cost of development. Indian issues etc . . . This would be a sure way to kill OS4.

If OS4 is going to switch gears for the future, I believe ARM is the way to go. Fast, low power and very capable. ARM is a burgeoning market. Development could be concentrated for a certain class of chip at first, like those with the NEON media array. Fewer drivers to develop. Indianess big and little, to help bridge the transition. And a better market for such a lightweight OS to gain entry.

JMO

_________________
Avatar babe - Monica Bellucci.

Quote:

If OS4 is going to switch gears for the future, I believe ARM is the way to go.

Your argument against x86 stands for ARM as well: there is competition on ARM as well, you have development cost as well, driver problems as well, etc...

This really shows people just see x86 as "evil", and nothing more...

The thing is there's no such thing as "evil"... This is just a question of being stupid until the end... Or being somewhat clever and move on...

See: http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid452319854?bctid=958764703

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@everyone

You people are all nuts!

It doesn't matter if AOS is running on x86, PPC, hydrogen or banana skins...

What matters is the quality and quantity of software (games and applications).

Do you still believe that if we had all the software that other platforms have we would be here arguing about x86 or PPC?

What makes a good system successful is mainly because of the software. You can have the fastest, best looking computer on earth but if there is no software to play with then it's GAME OVER.

If I had every piece of software I need running on OS4, do you really think I would still be using Windows?

_________________
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

@TheDaddy

Quote:

What makes a good system successful is mainly because of the software.

I agree, but how do you intend to get good software without users, let alone developers. In order to get developers, we need to lower the barrier of entry. If we port to x86, any interested developer can test it in Virtualpc etc in few minutes. Don't you think that will get more users than forcing them to buy some obscure hardware before they can even see if AmigaOS is something they like?

the important thing to note is that when Apple chose to go x86 they chose a very prescriptive hardware list. You must run with certain graphics cards, network cards, CPU, chipset. Granted, there are some marvellous illigitimate hacks to allow you to run OSX on some 3rd party systems/netbooks but they wont support those...full stop.

If AmigaOS went to x86 they'd have to follow the same rulset. there is no way that they could support hundreds of graphics cards, dozens of chipsets, hundreds of USB/FW/BT/Wifi chipsets etc.... even Linux, with its hordes of coders and open source methods doesnt support everything out there. many manufacturers will only supply windows drivers.

...which leads to the problem that Apple is now starting to face....they dont make (much_ money from their OS. All their profit is from hardware and their music stuff (soon to be
overtaken by the phone stuff). as a desktop operation, they make cash from their hardware that they prescribe and sell....and when times get tough, people look at that Apple kit
and they think 'shiny, but underneath its just a normal PC' - so they go out, save a few hundred quid and buy a normal PC instead. sure, it comes with Vista (or if they are lucky, WinXP). it might even come with Linux... but , at the end of the day, they dont buy that Apple kit and even if they do run OSX on it... Apple dont get the money for that illegal ripoff AND they dont get the money from the hardware.

I dont think thats a situation that Hyperion should face. I *DO* think, however, that the PowerPC gamble is a wise one.... ALL the current gaming consoles are PowerPC based. thats the PS3, the XBox360 and the Wii . as much as I hate microsoft for the way they have killed computing in terms of innovation, limiting the user, stupid patents etc wouldnt it be a wierd quirk if they ended up giving us one of the best desktop systems to run AOS on? And wouldnt it be even better if, say you wanted more horsepower for fancy stuff, used the PS3 instead?

@VidarL

>>I agree, but how do you intend to get good software without users, let alone developers. In order to get developers, we need to lower the barrier of entry. If we port to x86, any interested developer can test it in Virtualpc etc in few minutes. Don't you think that will get more users than forcing them to buy some obscure hardware before they can even see if AmigaOS is something they like?

By supporting the few developers we have left and try to increase their number. We have the foundations now we need to start building.

I doubt x86 developers would develop for a x86 Amiga when there is alread Windows etc...

_________________
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Quote:

I doubt x86 developers would develop for a x86 Amiga when there is alread Windows etc...

I doubt ARM developers would develop for an ARM Amiga when there are already iPhoneOS, Symbian, WebOS, Android, WindowsMobile, Linux, ...

Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 10:07 AM.

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Gebrochen

Quote:

Gebrochen wrote: @Hammer QUOTE PowerPC also has competition from ARM. With Intel focusing their industrial (e.g. 32nm process) and relationship (e.g. TSMC’s Intel Atom X86 licensing) resource on Netbooks/MIDs and smartphones (e.g. LG) and ARM’s return to the desktop via netbooks, the PowerPC is wedged between two large clone armies. END QUOTE hahahahahahaha Humungously HuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuGe comment! I love this comment. "Clone Armies" I feel like looking at some Star Wars Episodes now. hahaha, the best comment within this repeated type of x86 hardware threads. Your a Champ mate. I like people who make me smile. Keep up the good work too, your not only made a me a smile, but you actually made a nice point. Cheers.

It’s in reference to a certain AOS4.0 developer with a lightsaber.

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Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Leo

>>I doubt ARM developers would develop for an ARM Amiga when there are already iPhoneOS, Symbian, WebOS, Android, WindowsMobile, Linux, ...

Exactly, so why waste energy and time when we have already got our own domain?
It might be small but still...

_________________
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

@wolfe

Quote:

Indian issues

Indian issues ?

_________________
Rock lobster bit me. My Workbench has always preferences. X1000 + AmigaOS4.1 FE
"Anyone can build a fast CPU. The trick is to build a fast system." -Seymour Cray

@wolfe

Quote:

Indian issues etc

Ah yes, because of that new deal Amiga made with Ruksun no doubt...

I don't care how small it can be. I just want something fresh, powerfull, new, and not limited by any hardware or legacy problem...

A true AmigaNG. There are modern OS, but none with Amiga-like features. None different like the Amiga was.

The road will be long. It may not be finished. So what ? Better enjoy a nice road trip, than staying forever with outdated hardware, and stupid legacy keeping us from moving on.

So AROS is not an option since it has the very same limitations. And PPC isn't an option since the limitations are on the hardware side. That was my two cents.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote: @VidarL >>I agree, but how do you intend to get good software without users, let alone developers. In order to get developers, we need to lower the barrier of entry. If we port to x86, any interested developer can test it in Virtualpc etc in few minutes. Don't you think that will get more users than forcing them to buy some obscure hardware before they can even see if AmigaOS is something they like? By supporting the few developers we have left and try to increase their number. We have the foundations now we need to start building. I doubt x86 developers would develop for a x86 Amiga when there is alread Windows etc...

Why develop at all then?
Who wants to develop for a piece of H/W that cost 3 times as much and does far less than Windows already? At least on x86, if they like the AMIGA feel of the OS, they don't have to rely on someone wilth millions to "consider" making that H/W for those 1000 users.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@MrE

Quote:

MrE wrote: the important thing to note is that when Apple chose to go x86 they chose a very prescriptive hardware list. You must run with certain graphics cards, network cards, CPU, chipset. Granted, there are some marvellous illigitimate hacks to allow you to run OSX on some 3rd party systems/netbooks but they wont support those...full stop. If AmigaOS went to x86 they'd have to follow the same rulset. there is no way that they could support hundreds of graphics cards, dozens of chipsets, hundreds of USB/FW/BT/Wifi chipsets etc.... even Linux, with its hordes of coders and open source methods doesnt support everything out there. many manufacturers will only supply windows drivers. ...which leads to the problem that Apple is now starting to face....they dont make (much_ money from their OS. All their profit is from hardware and their music stuff (soon to be overtaken by the phone stuff). as a desktop operation, they make cash from their hardware that they prescribe and sell....and when times get tough, people look at that Apple kit and they think 'shiny, but underneath its just a normal PC' - so they go out, save a few hundred quid and buy a normal PC instead. sure, it comes with Vista (or if they are lucky, WinXP). it might even come with Linux... but , at the end of the day, they dont buy that Apple kit and even if they do run OSX on it... Apple dont get the money for that illegal ripoff AND they dont get the money from the hardware. I dont think thats a situation that Hyperion should face. I *DO* think, however, that the PowerPC gamble is a wise one.... ALL the current gaming consoles are PowerPC based. thats the PS3, the XBox360 and the Wii . as much as I hate microsoft for the way they have killed computing in terms of innovation, limiting the user, stupid patents etc wouldnt it be a wierd quirk if they ended up giving us one of the best desktop systems to run AOS on? And wouldnt it be even better if, say you wanted more horsepower for fancy stuff, used the PS3 instead?

Yes they would have to follow thqat same ruleset. Just the same way as they have to follow it now and write those drivers ANYWAY.

You want a Radeon on your AMIGA, you have to write a driver for that x86 platform designed card REGARDLESS.
The FACT is, this is where the hardware is and maybe there would be a more restricted H/W base then Windows has.
Maybe only ASUS boards, maybe not, at least they are now on the codebase that 98% of hardware manufacturs currently develop for.

the Alternative is to not only code for something hard to produce in this market place, and support it, but you have to get someone with the funding and resourses to design and produce that H/W from the ground up and then try sell it to a very small userbase.

All these efforts could go elswhere on to available and good H/W.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

Quote:

s much as I hate microsoft for the way they have killed computing in terms of innovation, limiting the user

Microsoft killed innovation ? that's new to me...

Nothing prevents you from innovating instead of using 25+ years old software...

Nothing prevents you from innovating and creating hardware of today instead of using 5 years+ old hardware...

No, nothing prevents you, and especially not microsoft. And if what they are doing is as bad as you say it is I wonder why you do not make something better...

Oh wait, maybe you mean they killed the competition ? Well, that's called business... And it seems some companies or systems are still well & alive despite that (Apple just to name one)...

No Microsoft didn't need to kill the Amiga. First because the Amiga was never important to them. And secondly because the Amiga was good at killing itself alone. No need of Microsoft for that.

Now you may keep on blaming Microsoft for another 10 years, or simply move on...

Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 02:46 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 02:46 PM.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@jingof

Quote:

I did say that it would be BAD for the Amiga community if Hyperion where to decide that enough is enough, they've spent enough time and money chasing a dream that isn't working out, the community is indifferent and unsupportive, and it is time to throw in the towel, versus throwing more good money after bad. I don't want Hyperion to reach that point and a mandate from the community majority that they MUST port to x86 or we will "boycott" their products will sign the death warrant for Amiga OS. period.

Well said!

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@Chain-Q

Quote:

If PPC is dead, then nextgen Amiga systems are dead anyway, because we're not Apple, we won't survive yet another CPU migration.

I agree, AOS 4.x would not survive this.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@VidarL

Quote:

VidarL wrote: @Chain-Q Quote: because we're not Apple, we won't survive yet another CPU migration. Are we surviving now? IMO we have nothing to loose to try.. I believe it's the route that most likely will increase the size of the community. Few people outside the current Amiga community will pay through the nose for inferior hardware..

Yes, because we have some users. If we drop PPC we lose the current users and in 4 years no one will care if x86 AOS came out.....for one motherboard, that you would likely only be able to buy used at that point.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200