@feanor

Why dont you contact Troika and take over their project?
They are stall for now as we see... You have prototype board immediately...
Thats 6 months ahead...
Think about that solution...
But first contact Hyperion about port of OS4x..

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F1 Srbija

First, I think the approach of feanor is fair and honnest. No promises, a solid knowledge about PowerPC, evaluation of the market, ...

feanor : You know, maybe vaporware in the past had decreased the enthouiasm about announced products but I am sure once the board is here, people will enjoy to have a more modern board to run their OS. And there will always be people to complain. Remember the low power of the Sam440 (just comparing the CPU frequency) : I think sales are good for ACube and Hyperion on the Amiga market.

About the dispute with Amiga Inc, the fact is that we have OS4 on Sam440 and Pegasos.

@corto

Quote:

corto wrote: About the dispute with Amiga Inc, the fact is that we have OS4 on Sam440 and Pegasos.

Sure, but anyone with a Pegasos owned it already as a MOS machine. And buying a SAM now seems quite safe sure, because you can buy AOS 4 for it now, right when you buy the board. But that was not always the case. There was a time when buying a SAM was not a safe bet, when there was no AOS for it. And this board as of yet is just an idea.

So I'm all for supporting the idea. I'm all for buying a board once it runs these operating systems where I can buy a copy of said operating systems at the time of purchase of the board. But in fairness to feanor its worth him noting that the comfort level for an AOS user may not be the same as that of a MOS or Haiku user if their OS comes out for the board 6 months to a year after they purchased the board.

If the MOS team says they are working on it at the least no one potentially stands in their way. For AOS, if the case goes against Hyperion everything could change overnight.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 29-Sep-2009 at 10:31 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 29-Sep-2009 at 10:30 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@feanor

If we look at the choices from a Linux point of view;

Would Linux be able to do more multitasking with the AltiVec unit included ?

If you go with the MPC8610,
Will the PCIe 8x slot be able to handle some suped-up graphics card not choked
by bus/processor limitations ?

@feanor

Speaking of Linux, can you tell us about the distros that you expect to support the board?

Most of my Linux experience is with Linux Mint. I know Yellow Dog is a PPC distro. Is there a very user friendly PPC distro that this board would likely run?

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

You'll get that answer and perhaps some more if you read the morphzone thread.

This conversation is crossing quite a few websites, as you might suspect.

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

@Comi

Quote:

Comi wrote: They are stall for now as we see... You have prototype board immediately... Thats 6 months ahead...

Ehm, if you're referring to the board in the photos it is the Freescale reference board. It's already available. Anyway we have different goals. I want a mid-range PPC board that might support more than one OSes, and they want an Amiga board.

@Mechanic

At last technical questions!!!

Ok, I don't know if anyone has seen my work on Altivec and libfreevec, but here are a few benchmarks to start from somewhere:

http://freevec.org/content/libfreevec_104_benchmarks_updated

I suggest you read this and see the speed difference Altivec can make and even more in a MPC8610 (MPC8640D performs similarly, but it is also dual-core).

Altivec can make some things faster yes. Multitasking might not necessarily go faster. But memory allocation might (I've been playing with a Altivec-optimised malloc() lately and I would like to try it soon). Of course there are already Altivec optimised versions of mplayer, vlc, and lots of encryption stuff.

Now, I also intend to provide a custom distro design and optimised binaries specifically for the board -which does not happen anywhere. The advantage of controlling both hardware and software -just like Apple does it. More about that in the next post :)

@eXec.pl

Quote:

You can't prove it.

See court documents. Prove me wrong

Quote:

Version 4 of AmigaOS includes source codes from the first version of AmigaOS created by Amiga legends.

OS4 coders already claimed to have almost rewritten everything, exec, graphics.library, intuition... in fact Friedens claim to have developed ExecSG from scratch.

Quote:

After that they abandoned Amiga platform like many others.

who? Carl Sassenrath, David Haynie and Jay Miner? We were lucky to have Frank Mariak and Ralph Schmidt, otherwise you would still be using 040 and AGA.

Quote:

Can you run OWB for Amiga on MorphOS? Can you run SRec for Amiga on MorphOS? Can you run AbiWord for Amiga on MorphOS? Can you run Gimp for Amiga on MorphOS?

Don't make me laugh, old Gimp versions run natively even on AmigaOS3.x. With an XServer I can run even OpenOffice (and probably faster than cygwhatevernix) BTW, OS4Emu works nicely but I have better native ports of most of the programs you listed... in fact OS4 programs run faster on MorphOS. AmigaOS apps run in a more compatible way and faster on MorphOS than on OS4, it's normal since MorphOS was designed by the heroes who kept AmigaOS3.x users using their amigas. They made possible having RTG, 060, PPC, fast dma hd access (with no corruption).

_________________
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@fairlanefastback

A Debian-based distro definitely (Ubuntu? we'll see) as I was a Debian developer myself for 9 years and I know it quite well. Probably OpenSuse/PPC and I think Peter Czanik will continue the maintenance there.

There are several ways to do this. Provide a mini-repository with only the packages that need to be optimised and use that repo with a higher priority -so that its packages are chosen first. This wasy, we could use the existing infrastructure, security updates, etc of Debian/OpenSuse, but we can also provide our own optimised versions of common packages (eg kernel, glibc, etc). This also has the advantages that we don't have to provide Q/A for all architectures, like a full distro does, just our own. YDL is also a good choice to consider.

@feanor

Quote:

feanor wrote: @fairlanefastback A Debian-based distro definitely (Ubuntu? we'll see)

Cool. Well when you get to that point Linux Mint may be worth consideration (since its an Ubuntu variant):

http://www.linuxmint.com/about.php

Quote:

Linux Mint is one of the surprise packages of the past year. Originally launched as a variant of Ubuntu with integrated media codecs, it has now developed into one of the most user-friendly distributions on the market - complete with a custom desktop and menus, several unique configuration tools, a web-based package installation interface, and a number of different editions. Perhaps most importantly, this is one project where the developers and users are in constant interaction, resulting in dramatic, user-driven improvements with every new release. DistroWatch has spoken to the founder and lead developer of Linux Mint, Clement Lefebvre, about the history of the distribution.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Sep-2009 at 12:10 AM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@billt ( I had to answer this one)

Quote:

Go read up on the PowerPC laptop threads from not long ago... Doesn't mean that's your intention, and many here don't understand the risk on your end of your proposal, but we've seen it before and been burned so many times it's hard to trust anyone coming in like this.

Ok, understood, but I really don't see a connection with this case. Still I respect the

Quote:

That's not how AmigaOS port licensing works, at least not last time I asked about it. First thing is to go to Hyperion and Amiga Inc. and figure out what all the AmigaOS licensing simply to allow porting to happen is, what obligations fall on the hardware developer, fee amounts and what they're for, and factor all that into your proposal to us.

And that's not how normal business works either. The discussion you're are referring to, will probably take place when there is something concrete. For one the specs. It's one thing to port for the MPC8610, more difficult -I guess- for the MPC8640D, and much harder for the P1022 (different FPU, no Altivec, SPE-only, etc). Not to mention the difference in drivers in each case.
So, for the last time, this discussion, will happen only if the necessary threshold has been reached (500 mails total) and a significant number of these are AmigaOS (similar for MorphOS). What's a significant %? at least 20%.

Quote:

As it is, it feels like you're asking for commitments (notes of interest, whatever) to purchase a motherboard for OS4 with no guarantee that it will run OS4.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I just asked (politely) for mails of interest. There is *nothing* that constitites commitment in these mails -even if I was such an idiot to try and enforce this "commitment" in the future. Hell, I just want a list of names. At the end of October, I will personally notify all those who honoured me and sent me an email about the status of the project. I will also post on the forums, but these people took the time and sent an email because they believed in this cause as well. These people will be the first to know when progress is made with the board. These people will be the first to be asked if they want to order -in case there is such a huge demand afterwards :D

Anyway, for the last time, it is NOT a commitment, it's just an email.

Oh, and it's NOT a "motherboard for OS4 with no guarrantee that it will run OS4". It's a PowerPC motherboard, that might support OS4 -amongst other OSes. With that possibility, I ask for mails of interest. If it doesn't get to support it, then of course I would expect all those persons that want OS4, they will not buy the motherboard. Plain as that.

Last edited by feanor on 30-Sep-2009 at 12:30 AM.

@Crumb

I asked you to stay on topic and if you wanted to discuss stuff on the court case and AOS vs. MOS etc. to start a new thread.

What is so hard to make a new thread if you really have to go down this path. The answer is it is not. Last chance before I give you an official warning. Lets please avoid that nonsense ok?

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Sep-2009 at 12:16 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Sep-2009 at 12:15 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Sep-2009 at 12:15 AM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Ok, I don't disagree, but I just found out:

http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=21382&p=139826&hilit=powerpc#p139826

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

I was the one that made the suggestion to the Amiga execs (hired by Gateway) to make an intermediate code format. It was at the Gateway Amiga Developers' Conference in 1998. It may not have been announced to the world until after Bill McEwen took over later on with the technology licensed from Gateway.

The idea was around before that, I posted it to the ICOA mailing list at some point. I think there was some discussion about which CPU to use at the time and I figured you could bridge the gap somehow with an intermediate format.

I thought I was being amazingly original but was promptly brought down to earth by Dave Haynie who pointed out the idea was 20 years old!

_________________
Whyzzat?

@feanor

Quote:

feanor wrote: And that's not how normal business works either. The discussion you're are referring to, will probably take place when there is something concrete. For one the specs. It's one thing to port for the MPC8610, more difficult -I guess- for the MPC8640D, and much harder for the P1022 (different FPU, no Altivec, SPE-only, etc). Not to mention the difference in drivers in each case. So, for the last time, this discussion, will happen only if the necessary threshold has been reached (500 mails total) and a significant number of these are AmigaOS (similar for MorphOS). What's a significant %? at least 20%.

How much interest have you had so far? I am interested in any new hardware for Amiga OS4.1 that's better than the Amigaone that I have right now. One thing that you should bear in mind is that we don't know if there is already such a board under development. If something comes out in the mean-time, you can expect interest for your board to decrease.

My suggestion would be to go with one of the dual-core chips. Who cares if Amiga OS and MorphOS don't support it at the moment, that would provide hardware for experimenting with and developing multi-core support, and the motivation to do so. Also, I don't see the value in the 2D graphics cores that a few of the suggested chips have. The first thing that I would do is plug in a secondary graphics card. So long as the card has connections for drives, PCI-Express cards, and USB devices, the rest are not necessary.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@Crumb

Quote:

See court documents.

The case is not over yet. There is no final documents

Quote:

Prove me wrong

You said that AmigaOS is illegal so you have to prove it to me.

Quote:

OS4 coders already claimed to have almost rewritten everything, exec, graphics.library, intuition... in fact Friedens claim to have developed ExecSG from scratch.

ExecSG was deveveloped from scratch but most of the system components is based on old AmigaOS source codes.

Quote:

We were lucky to have Frank Mariak and Ralph Schmidt, otherwise you would still be using 040 and AGA.

Frank Mariak and Ralp Schmidt abandoned Amiga platform long, long time ago. I have not seen anything for Amiga from them for years.

Quote:

old Gimp versions run natively even on AmigaOS3.x

Thats great but you can't run the latest version of Gimp for Amiga on your platform because MorphOS is not compatible with Amiga.

Quote:

With an XServer I can run even OpenOffice

You can run OpenOffice on your MorphOS platform but I can't run OpenOffice on my Amiga platform. Do you see this difference?

Quote:

OS4Emu works nicely but I have better native ports of most of the programs you listed...

If you have to use emulator on MorphOS to run Amiga applications it means MorphOS is not compatible with Amiga platform. MorphOS native appliactions doesn't work on the latest version of AmigaOS too.

Quote:

AmigaOS apps run in a more compatible way and faster on MorphOS than on OS4

Can you run OWB for Amiga on MorphOS? Can you run the latest version GIMP for Amiga on MorphOS?

_________________
www.exec.pl, www.amigaos.pl, eXec TV

@feanor

There's definitely more interest in your project than the emails you received would indicate.

It may just be that some of us are so lazy, disorganized, or busy that unless we can click on a link directly on the page that got our attention and be taken to a form to fill out step by step, you won't hear from us.

At least that's the case for me. As soon as I have to start thinking what to write in an email I get writer's block and cancel the email. With a decent form all I have to do is pick this CPU that price range and OS and I'm done.

My main concern would be to be able to buy new hardware when I'll need it, price and specs are secondary as long as it runs OS4.

_________________
AlexC's free OS4 software collection

AmigaOne XE/X1000/X5000/UAE-PPC OS4 laptop/X-10 Home Automation

@eXec.pl

Quote:

If you have to use emulator on MorphOS to run Amiga applications it means MorphOS is not compatible with Amiga platform. MorphOS native appliactions doesn't work on the latest version of AmigaOS too.

In that case AOS4 is not compatible with the Amiga platform either, because it can't run 99% of all software available for real (68k) amigas.

@AlexC

Lol, at least you're honest. Ok, if that's the only reason, I'll think of preparing a form somewhere instead of a mail (you'd send an email btw, in less time that it took you to post this :)