I know this is not the proper time for this discussion, because of the news from Amiwest, etc. but I have to get this off my chest.

This weekend I had a visit from an old former amigan friend. In 1998 he skipped the amiga scene in frustration, and was very sad and angry over the situation, and the lack of development..like many of us. He just never looked back, and is still very upset over the fall of the Amiga, and don't even follow anything amiga anymore.

But we stayed friends for the years to come, and so this weekend we had some good food and wine, and I gently told him Amiwest was also this weekend. I told him about the situation with new NG hardware in many years - and showed him the new amiwest videos of Trevor talking about three new motherboards. I also told him about Libre Office, Firefox, HD audio, Radeon support, etc. Java on its way, QT, AmiCygnix, etc.

He was rather condescending about the progress, and reacted mostly like he was very hurt once, when i kept talkin positively about what was going on. (and the news from amiwest) - he just couldn't see anything positive about where the amiga scene was today. It seemed like he was almost unsalvable, and I asked what should be done to keep his interest and restore a bit of faith in him. (he is a long time amiga user, and a capable java programmer, so he knows his it stuff)

He answered that long ago the AmigaOS should have been given a linux kernel, and thereby get all the bells and whistles of memory handling, filesystems, SMP, etc.

He said that in his eyes that was the only way to go. To run AOS in a sandbox, or run somekind of Amithlon solution. He thought it was a bad idea that a small company reinvented all the stuff that very skilled people already had put in the linux kernel for free use. He was angry that Amitlon never was used as NG solution, and that amiga used up precious time to code stuff that was already made by experts, and was free for the taking.

And my thoughts are - yes perhaps we should have a Linux kernel booting a workbench environment - like Amithlon. That would dramatically increase the speed of AOS getting all the cool important stuff, and support x86, memory protection, multicore cpus, etc.

So Instead of making 14 different distros running on the X1000 - maybe take the quickest of them boot AOS directly into WB, and use this as a future platform for AOS

I wonder what the devs oppinion are on this matter ? Is this an easy way to get all the important stuff and all the nice apps, games, etc. ?? it seems like A-eon already have some cool linux guys working for them, so maybe the idea is not that impossible to implement.

I could easily live with AOS running on a linux kernel...as long as it looks and acts mostly like AOS

So as far as my personal oppinion goes, I'm optimistic about the idea, because I think the development time is much too long for AOS - and probably costs too much for such a small userbase.

But again I don't know the whole picture legally wise, business wise, investment wise, etc.

So please don't think I say this HAS to be done...I'm merely asking if my friend is right ?

(note he is also unaware of the current/future plans and timeframes of Hyperion)

And yes I made sure he saw Trevors suitcase full of boing stuff...


Hondo

Last edited by Hondo on 21-Oct-2013 at 12:13 PM.
Last edited by Hondo on 21-Oct-2013 at 10:08 AM.

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On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@Hondo

Yeah, we could even call it something like I dunno, "ARIX".

@Hondo

In around 1999, a perfect NG AmigaOS was formed when Gateway announced they will be using QNX as a basis for the new Amiga OS.

That would have given the new AmigaOS an SMP capable, memory protected, POSIX compatible mickro-kernel OS that ran on multiple CPU architectures.

Later, they switched to Linux, but even that was dropped and Amiga ws sold to McEwen & Co. and the rest is history.

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@Hondo

you have a very reasonable friend it seems. use it as a template of what even a total stranger would think about os4 course.
does he know about aros at all? you will have to point him to arix when its launched, i suspect he might like it.

@WolfToTheMoon

And now the circle is complete with McEwen releasing pirated Amiga games for QNX in the BlackBerry store. b)

@WolfToTheMoon

Yes I remember those two options were on the table at the time, and I remember I was thrilled about it.

But just because it didn't happen in 1999 - doesn't mean it can't happen anymore.

I just wonder if my friend is right, or if he lacks knowledge of the consequences of this "easy" solution.

I think it is worth discussing again

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On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@wawa

I have given him the links to this discussion (and the copy I made on amigans.net)

And yes I will give him knowledge about ARIX - which could be fun for him to explore.

I don't care how he gets back into the amiga scene, I just hope he gets back.

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On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@IntuitionAmiga

Quote:

And now the circle is complete with McEwen releasing pirated Amiga games for QNX in the BlackBerry store. b)

Yeah the irony is completely hillarious

So much madness in this amiga scene through the years

_________________
On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@Hondo

Quote:

But just because it didn't happen in 1999 - doesn't mean it can't happen anymore.

There is one crucial difference...

Had Gateway launched an QNX/Linux powered AmigaOS in the early 2000s, it could have been the saving grace of the platform.

Today, it would be that much harder to get noticed in the post-PC world.

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@IntuitionAmiga

But remember that me and my friend was discussing the AmigaOS - and future possibillities for this particular system. So even if there is a system like ARIX it still isn't AmigaOS - unless of course ARIX suddenly is called AmigaOS

_________________
On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@Hondo

Well Commodore never released a product named "AmigaOS" so the name is irrelevant really.

@WolfToTheMoon
QNX and Linux are two very different things. QNX is realtime microkernel and Linux is monolithic kernel. I would prefer QNX any second.


@Hondo
Anyway use Linux kernel as a base of AmigaOS would mean in fact create another Linux distro, not OS we know and like.

Last edited by ExiE on 21-Oct-2013 at 11:50 AM.

@ExiE

Quote:

QNX and Linux are two very different things. QNX is realtime microkernel and Linux is monolithic kernel. I would prefer QNX any second.

I'm quite aware of the differences, but the avarage Joe just wants to have his programs running smoothly and that he can get a lot of them for as little money as possible. In that regard, Linux/UNIX is better.
But even QNX would have been orders of magnitude better than what there is now available.

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@Hondo

Quote:

So please don't think I say this HAS to be done...I'm merely asking if my friend is right ?

Your friend is very right...

We have a long history with linux, even till today.

http://www.google.com/search?q=amiga+debian

But if it is asked to combine the 2 then nobody likes it.

Only the future will tell us what the best way is/was.

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A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

@ALL

Well ... I know another project in his day I found the closest to our interests:

I think it was AROS, mounted on modified MIT exokernel , the exokernel provided what we need:

SMP, memory protection ...

I remember that the file system was specific for hard drives SSD

They used the AROS directory structure and it worked very well, I remember that there was also modified (and lightened a lot) the core exec who communicated with the exokernel

I also seem to remember that implemented full OpenGL on Nvidia cards ...

Do not know what happened with that project, but I think it was orphaned when Computer Engineering students who were about to put their degree.

Sorry for mi bad English ...

@drstrangelove

sounds pretty much like aros, in fact ir sonds like arix for what i know of.

@Hondo

Quote:

But remember that me and my friend was discussing the AmigaOS - and future possibillities for this particular system.

if you narrow it down to os4 then i see black ahead. os4 has historically always refused to decide in favour of the users. amithlon, moana... instead you get things like xena, none asked for. i dont see how this could change without admitting mistakes, so it wont happen.

Quote:

unless of course ARIX suddenly is called AmigaOS

if your attitude towards something stands and falls with the name alone, then there is some serious psychological problem involved. you should ask yourself essential questions instead sticking to words alone, except you particularly enjoy to be misleaden. this actually applky to all situations, not only "amiga".

Last edited by wawa on 21-Oct-2013 at 02:16 PM.

@wawa

Quote:

i dont see how this could change without admitting mistakes

Perhaps you've forgotten that Amiga is still up to its neck in legal implications applicable to each suggested "change". Such things require a bevy of attorneys deciding what can or can not be done as a result and agreeing on such possibilities.

Discussing options is fine but remember that attorneys represent their clients, the owners. What the users want, or what might seem a logical path, is not the focus here.

Ergo, people do what they can within these constraints. Simple as that...

#6

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This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

@Hondo

In top summary do you think we should do what Apple did?

Quote:

He answered that long ago the AmigaOS should have been given a linux kernel, and thereby get all the bells and whistles of memory handling, filesystems, SMP, etc.

I've had this kind of idea myself. Where Exec sat above a Linux kernel and provided an API for Amiga programs. Being nothing itself but a wrapper for the host OS. I thought someone may have already done this by now. I mean wouldn't that be easier than coding a whole Amiga kernel and underlying OS from scratch like AROS does?

Quote:

He thought it was a bad idea that a small company reinvented all the stuff that very skilled people already had put in the linux kernel for free use.

Well hang on, there are a lot of other operating systems that implemented all this stuff and they weren't Linux. Like Windows. OS/2. BeOS. NextStep. Apple, well they just gave up on the real MacOS.

Quote:

He was angry that Amitlon never was used as NG solution, and that amiga used up precious time to code stuff that was already made by experts, and was free for the taking.

Now this is to do with a point I made in the other thread, about how people interpreted Amithlon as if it was AmigaOS x86. I don't recall Amiga really doing anything Amiga at all, apart from OS3.5+OS3.9, or just announcing it. But, I don't see how Amithlon would have been a NG solution. It was a stripped down Amiga emulator, an AmigaOS emulator; infact you could say it emulated a Draco running AmigaOS. I think a 68k emulator would have been a bad idea for a NG solution, all it did was run the same old OS on cheap hardware. With special tricks to run native code inside the emulation.

Quote:

That would dramatically increase the speed of AOS getting all the cool important stuff, and support x86, memory protection, multicore cpus, etc.

Perhaps, but only on a virtual level, and the OS would still needed to be run emulated. Apart from what they could compile. The same setup on PowerPC hardware would have enabled WarpOS/PowerUP support.

Quote:

So Instead of making 14 different distros running on the X1000 - maybe take the quickest of them boot AOS directly into WB, and use this as a future platform for AOS

From what I read that would boot slower than AmigaOS already does on the X1000!

We don't need any more slow booting complaints.

Quote:

I could easily live with AOS running on a linux kernel...as long as it looks and acts mostly like AOS

It's funny to think that a few Amiga people I've come across since OS4 came out all thought that OS4 ran on top of Linux. Already! Don't know why. AmigaOS was said to be based on Unix. "AmigaOS runs on top of Unix!" Maybe they stretched that futher.

Quote:

But again I don't know the whole picture legally wise, business wise, investment wise, etc.

Well there's a problem there. You have a commercial OS people pay money for sitting on top of a free kernel. Then it sounds like the OSX argument. Why pay money for a desktop wrapper and programs sitting on a free OS?

Also, there are technical things not discussed, like filesystems and DOS. It would need to support Amiga filesystems and AmigaDOS would need to be AmigaDOS. Perhaps Linux path semantics could be in there and hidden but it would need to act as well as feel like AmigaOS. Unlike Apple who dumped the Mac path semantics for the incompatible Unix ones. And also unlike the CommodoreOS which tries to be like a Workbench desktop but didn't work as it has Linux sticking its head out.

Wait wouldn't the CommodoreOS do what you want? Did you tell your friend what they did with CommodoreOS and the Amiga branded PCs?

Last edited by Hypex on 21-Oct-2013 at 03:52 PM.