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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  OpenGL ES 2 development continues (was: stopped)
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wawa 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 10:44:24
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5715
From: Unknown

@terminills

Quote:
I'm not sure how you can say Gutjahr is biased. Sure he's critical but then again that is to be expected. iirc Gutjahr was welcomed among the AOS4 community until he started being more critical.


i vaguelly recall that pk has received some cg criticism himself what concerns advertising his numerous initiatives on aw.net.

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pavlor 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 10:45:09
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8425
From: Unknown

@ExiE

I must admit I always apply rose-tinted-filter to anything about OS4 from Cgutjahr. It works good so far.

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wawa 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 10:58:32
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5715
From: Unknown

@amigakit

Quote:
Nobody intentionally releases software "known" to be buggy. Bugs are an unfortunate side effect of software development that can pop up from time to time. The important thing is to identify the cause of the bug and resolve it by having the proper development infrastructure in place.


except when release is rushed because of reasons not related to the software as such, publicity as example.

the problem with the projects trying to "establish new standards", such as warp3d nova is that i dont see how bug fixing can be effectively sustained, especially that this is a project apparently a single developer works on and there is no reference software it could be tested against. such software would have to be written first. obviously the ogles2 wrapper was intended as such a reference, bridging to some actual standard. daniel even refers to his role as being a cheap alpha tester. good thing is thst this probably revealed that the concepts behind the w3d nova were probably to minimalist to be of a practical use for actual software. the problem remains, that if you still can count developers using the library on the fingers of one hand, the new standard wont become a standard ever. but maybe ogles2 library will actually become such a standard instead, assuming it receives expected functionality, and that there is software possible to port againts it. otherwise you probably should have simply ported mesa (gallium) as aros did.

Last edited by wawa on 06-Jul-2016 at 11:01 AM.

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terminills 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 11:04:58
#84 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1234
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
i vaguelly recall that pk has received some cg criticism himself what concerns advertising his numerous initiatives on aw.net.



So I have and TBH it was well deserved. =]

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amigakit 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 11:10:12
#85 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2141
From: www.amigakit.com

@wawa

Well, this contract has taken a year of heavy development to date, so I wouldn't describe it as rushed.

By releasing incrementaly, it is real, tangible and can be used - this is not something that is vapourware and importantly users and prospective devs interested in the API or OpenGLES on AmigaOS can see the feature set and evaluate for their projects.

Hans De Ruiter is lead developer on this project but there are other developers have and will also provide valuable contributions to the project. The AmigaDeveloper.com Team is now numbering 20 active (paid) developers with some have specific 3D experience which is invaluable to this project. We also have a small team of third party developers who are notable in the Amiga world for their 3D projects using Warp3D Nova and the OpenGL ES library now. No doubt this will grow in the future still.

Last edited by amigakit on 06-Jul-2016 at 11:12 AM.

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Senex 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 11:32:17
#86 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 113
From: Unknown

@phoenixkonsole

Quote:
Amiga-news is not equal to cgutjahr. I believe that senex plus others could do it as well alone.


No.

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 11:47:59
#87 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1671
From: Unknown

@terminills
?
No it was because he started to hijack normal threads (about my Projects).
Theres is a difference if someone talks about his Project and someone promotes his project in a News item.

Whatever please try to look form a 3rd Person perspective. It has nothing to do with my own Projects here.

@ExiE
Why is this a Vendetta if I talk about his behaviour and mistakes as leader of a News page which just leads to flamewars?
It is what it is.
And on the other Hand.. why am I not allowed to express my impressions?
Because he has told some things shit? Whait?
I have to be calm? Because he isn't?
What is wrong with you?
The dictator has spoken so it is fact and everyone else a moron?

_________________
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kamelit0 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 11:48:59
#88 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2011
Posts: 588
From: Unknown

@amigakit

Release early release often, that what Steve Solie wanted to do...
I'm glad that you're doing it.

Kamelito
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Release_early,_release_often

Last edited by kamelit0 on 06-Jul-2016 at 11:50 AM.
Last edited by kamelit0 on 06-Jul-2016 at 11:50 AM.

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amigakit 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 11:54:11
#89 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2141
From: www.amigakit.com

@kamelit0

Yes that is the strategy with a mammoth project the size of Warp3D Nova. With the advantage that third party developers can simultaneously create their 3D projects on the Nova or OpenGLES 2.0 platform for AmigaOS. Exciting times !

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 11:58:57
#90 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1671
From: Unknown

@kamelit0
Rero is the way to go in this damn small fragmented community : )

_________________
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kamelit0 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 12:02:35
#91 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2011
Posts: 588
From: Unknown

@amigakit

Sure but I would add 3D or 2D, or 2D gameplay using 3D
Exciting for sure in Amiga Land.

Kamelito

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Rob 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 12:37:05
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5575
From: S.Wales

@amigakit

Payback 2 uses OpenGL ES2. When the Amiga APIs meet the requirements, would you consider working out some kind of arrangement with James Daniels. He probably wouldn't be interested in doing the work himself but might be willing to make a favourable deal if you supply the labour.

I haven't actually played it but judging by the current trailer it's just as fun as the original but with much improved graphics. I think it would sell in Amiga terms but you're the one in the position to know if it will make economic sense.

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wawa 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 13:47:22
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5715
From: Unknown

@phoenixkonsole

Quote:
Rero is the way to go in this damn small fragmented community : )


including "listening to the customers"? that would really be something unheard of this far..

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 6-Jul-2016 14:01:56
#94 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1671
From: Unknown

@wawa
Exactly the problem here.. Wrong impressions.
None of the moaning stars is a customer.
I assume that Aeon listens to their customers.
I am sure the is a lot emailing and Facebook messaging going on none of the ethic commission is aware of.

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 06-Jul-2016 at 02:06 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 06-Jul-2016 at 02:04 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 06-Jul-2016 at 02:03 PM.

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Hans 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 7-Jul-2016 1:27:11
#95 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4789
From: New Zealand

@wawa

Quote:
the problem with the projects trying to "establish new standards", such as warp3d nova is that i dont see how bug fixing can be effectively sustained, especially that this is a project apparently a single developer works on and there is no reference software it could be tested against. such software would have to be written first.

Yes, such tests would have to be written first, which is exactly what I'm doing. Initially I was creating example programs to use as tests, but I've now got an ever expanding array of automated tests.

Even then, there's no way that I can guess exactly how other developers will use and abuse the API, so it's important to get it out in the wild where people can use it. That is the main reason for releasing it early, and incrementally adding features/capability.

Quote:
obviously the ogles2 wrapper was intended as such a reference, bridging to some actual standard. daniel even refers to his role as being a cheap alpha tester.

Umm, no. The GLES2 wrapper is there for pragmatic reasons. Realistically, we need some kind of OpenGL compatibility. OpenGL is simply too important to ignore. Plus, groups like AmiBoing need to release their games on other platforms to be commercially viable, and GL support makes that easier.

Quote:
good thing is thst this probably revealed that the concepts behind the w3d nova were probably to minimalist to be of a practical use for actual software.

Good thing you said probably instead of definitely. W3D Nova has to deliver the features GLES2 needs for the wrapper to be usable for "actual software." IMHO, anyone who knows how to use shaders and VBOs in OpenGL should find it relatively easy to figure out how to use Warp3D Nova. Nova can use GLSL shaders, and anyone who cares about performance should understand VBOs.

Probably the biggest adjustment from OpenGL to Nova, is that uniform variables are stored in a Data Buffer Object (DBO). However, newer OpenGL versions actually move in that direction with the introduction of UBOs and SSBOs. It makes life easier when you can store uniforms in a structure and use that directly rather than having to upload them one at a time.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 07-Jul-2016 at 01:45 AM.

_________________
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Yssing 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 7-Jul-2016 21:53:39
#96 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 920
From: Unknown

@Hans

There are a lot of us, who really appreciates your and other developers hard work.

But unfortunatly there will be those who just have to find something negative, even is there is no negative to say, they just have to find it.

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Tomppeli 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 7-Jul-2016 23:07:47
#97 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2004
Posts: 1592
From: Home land of Santa, sauna, sisu and salmiakki

I appreciate the hard work as well !

_________________
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BCP 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 7-Jul-2016 23:37:20
#98 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2003
Posts: 177
From: Indianapolis, IN USA

@Tomppeli & Hans

As do I...

Last edited by BCP on 07-Jul-2016 at 11:37 PM.

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noXLar 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 8-Jul-2016 4:51:41
#99 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-May-2003
Posts: 619
From: Norway

me too!!!! :)

_________________
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Hypex 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 8-Jul-2016 15:51:37
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8691
From: Greensborough, Australia

@OlafS25

Quote:
but for what purpose would you want to use OS4 to develop for mobile platforms?


I think I can suggest a use case here: Hollywood.

Now that it can export an Android package This provides oppertunity to create in an Amiga enviroment. Yes it work in more common platforms but it's still good to see.

I don't know what kind of 3D support if offers for any platform but it can be a start to building bridges.

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