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      /  Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
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BigD 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 13:22:00
#141 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4076
From: UK

@tlosm

Quote:
is what im say for very beginning this machine is ok for amigaos and mos and if you have extra money you can buy it .... but dont use linux on it or you will start understand the true machine performances.


Or it is not fully optimised for Linux yet or there is a bug causing slow down or your prototype machine is crippled. It could be any one of those things, but what I'm saying is your opinion is simply not relevant to most of the people on this forum because we're AMIGA guys and girls! 'Nuff said teddy thrower!!

Last edited by BigD on 13-Sep-2017 at 01:23 PM.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 13:27:59
#142 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2302
From: Amiga land

@BigD

Quote:
Or it is not fully optimised for Linux yet or there is a bug causing slow down or your prototype machine is crippled


No there are only hardware limits and bad choice when they design the mobo.
ram too slow for have responsive system.

Example try to install windows 7 on a athlon 700mhz with a RadeonHd attached on a pci thru a pci to pcie connector.

Last edited by tlosm on 13-Sep-2017 at 01:28 PM.

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Signal 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 14:38:39
#143 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 509
From: USA

@tlosm

I do not know which kernels work best on X5000. For me the 3.10 to 3.16 work best on X1000.
It seems, after looking at much of the code, that systemd is more developed for X86, and only slightly moved to ppc for compatability with newer kernels. I run Lubuntu 12.04 and Debian 8 with the 3.10.93 kernel with great success.

After OS4.1 up1 killed the Xena bus interface I gave up and took BigD's adviceQuote:
So go and use Linux on a Raspberry Pi 3 join a Linux forum and live a happy and productive life.
and have not turned on OS4 for 3 months now. X5000.....never going to happen.

I truly know your frustration. Been waiting 5 years for a PCIe serial card and a few other things that are hardware related.

I'm not bitching here, it just is what it is.

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A1-X1000, x86 Linux, RaspberryPi 3 Linux

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 14:46:52
#144 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2302
From: Amiga land

@Signal

the best kernel is not to simple to find because for example some new boards are better implemented in new kernels. im using right now the 4.11. on x5000 and 4.10 on g5. I know you are not bitching because my opinion about you is that you are a good man

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 15:51:16
#145 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10680
From: Norway

@tlosm

Sound like Linux has some bad drivers.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 16:10:33
#146 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2302
From: Amiga land

@NutsAboutAmiga

is not drivers Nuts, on of the most bootle neck is the ram that is slow.
and this for sure not a driver issue.

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A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
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Hypex 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 17:08:51
#147 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8628
From: Greensborough, Australia

@All

There's an X5000 thread in the Commodore-Amiga Facebook group that has just blown out of proportion. To which I added too. There's the usual Amiga people now days crapping on about how good the PC is and it's so cheap and better, so fast, so many cores, I can time travel on my PC because it's so fast, I love Intel so much, I want to live on a server farm, no point to these A1 machines, just buy a PC, yada yada yada. Yes bit of hyperbole there.

But one theme runs across the whole thread. These Amiga people don't like Amiga being in the title AmigaOne. They want it to be removed.

Doesn't have an Amiga chipset. Not an Amiga. Nothing to do with Amiga. Why is it called Amiga? Can't run Amiga software or games. Take Amiga out if it! Abomination!

Just to summarise the content there. So I am wondering. Is there a problem calling it an AmigaOne because AmigaOne has the word Amiga in it and it just isn't right at all?

I suggest AmigosOne.
Is it grape vs. grapefruit all over again?

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Arnie 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 17:51:10
#148 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 804
From: Swindon, UK, Earth somewhere in the galaxy

@Hypex
Quote:

Doesn't have an Amiga chipset. Not an Amiga. Nothing to do with Amiga. Why is it called Amiga? Can't run Amiga software or games. Take Amiga out if it! Abomination!

This argument has now been used many times against the Amigaone family but the same applies to all modern computers no matter what OS they are running on what processor. All modern hardware is different from the machines of the late 80's early 90's and the OS's can not run the software from that time without emulation so why insist any computer with the name Amiga should. Everybody else has moved on with the times so why shouldn't Amigans.

There is a healthy retro scene for all those who still like using all the classic machines and long should it continue to live, This doesn't mean the Amiga name shouldn't evolve.

That said from what I've read here about the X5000 it seems to be a repeat of the A1XE's so I certainly won't be falling for that trick again.

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BigD 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 18:01:02
#149 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4076
From: UK

@Hypex

Quote:
But one theme runs across the whole thread. These Amiga people don't like Amiga being in the title AmigaOne. They want it to be removed.


The people that post that sentiment all have one thing in common; they are all morons (offense intended)! They remember the Amiga as a one flopy disk drive A500 type machine that they pirated games on in the late 80s. They thought it was weird to upgrade to a hard drive, A1200 or spend ANYTHING on the platform other than the A500 that they got for Christmas. Those people are not serious Amigans in my view, contributed to the death of the platform and should only be emulating the machine on their PeeCees or Raspberry Pis.

Presumably they'd prefer the 'Amiga' trademark to go the way of Commodore and just be slapped on low cost USB stick and PC cases every few years by the latest venture capitalist that wants to trade on nostalgia?

At least the AmigaOne partners are actually attempting to continue the legacy of the Commodore Amiga and actually attempt to make a profit in the computer business. Not even Apple actually care about computers anymore as they find phones more profitable. A-EON are closer to the vision of the 80s home computers than Apple is.

Last edited by BigD on 13-Sep-2017 at 06:29 PM.

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PhantomInterrogative 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 18:06:28
#150 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Sep-2004
Posts: 741
From: The Interrogative Lair

@Hypex

Perhaps that question is better suited for a new thread. I remember reading an Amigaworld magazine from around 1990 that said the A3000/ECS/Workbench 2.0 broke so much compatibility with existing software that it could be considered a different computer than Amiga. When the A4000/A1200/AA came out, it broke more compatibility with older software. There were people who refused to upgrade their A500s and A2000s to ECS and WB 2.x. Others would not touch AGA machines. There were still others who held onto Commodore machines insisting that Escom/Quickpac machines were too slow and too expensive.

There will always be purists insisting that an Amiga is [fill in the blank], and everything else is a piece of [enter your favorite indecent explicative here]. I define Amiga more by an enjoyable computing experience that one feels when working, playing, or tinkering with a computer that runs an Amiga-like OS.

Reigning the conversation back into the realm of "Is the X5000 worth it," may I say that the enjoyable work/play/tinkering experience it brings may indeed be worth it. I just don't have the funds for it at present.

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I sold my SAM460ex lite... waiting for money to buy the X5000... or Amiga Reloaded... or an A1222... and OS4.2 FE update 9

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 18:17:43
#151 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10680
From: Norway

@tlosm

Even the memory controller can be to configured.
remember all the fixes ACube created for the Sam460?
or check your standard PC bios



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYQCBGLRbNw

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Sep-2017 at 06:21 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Sep-2017 at 06:18 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 18:44:31
#152 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5714
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
These Amiga people don't like Amiga being in the title AmigaOne. They want it to be removed.


might be a good idea to stand on own feet instead trying to score on amiga legacy. if os4 and its hardware is so much fun by itself, then it wont be a problem. simply ask yourself, if you would buy the system and use the os, if it had no "amiga" in name.

Last edited by wawa on 13-Sep-2017 at 06:46 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 13-Sep-2017 at 06:45 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 18:49:33
#153 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4076
From: UK

@wawa

It's the only part of the Amiga IP that has been saved from the vultures. Hyperion fought hard for the right to use the AmigaOne trade mark and their software has a direct link to the Workbench 3.1 source code. I can't think of ANY other platform where the original trademark fits the use as much as it does for the AmigaOne and AmigaOS. I really cannot understand your position other than through the filter of the pain a lot of people feel from the fallout from the Blue vs Red battles etc. On that basis Trevor Dickinson has done his best to heal those wounds and I really can't see much more he could do to appease MorphOS and AROS people.

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 18:57:28
#154 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 149
From: Israel, Haderah

@wawa

I might simply choose to ask a different question: how come there are people here whose only point is to push away Amiga-related developments? you might want to throw away the title "amigan" from a certain relation you seem to enjoy. How about arosian? I know I know - the arosians who seem to lurk on these forums looking to pinpoint every little downside of current Amiga-1 developments. Then of course you have those that actually leech on every tiny newsbit Amiga can generate on the mainstream press like Arstechnica. They can be upgraded to pc-arosians whose only purpose it to influence the current platform to either be "pure" (whatever that may be) or be super-duper pc. I actually prefer to go back and use superduper on the amiga than go back to a day-to-day pc...

Last edited by Srtest on 13-Sep-2017 at 07:32 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 19:01:29
#155 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5714
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:
t's the only part of the Amiga IP that has been saved from the vultures.


really?

Quote:
Blue vs Red battles


never been part of it. actually have never seen morphos first hand. my alignment with aros is the result of my practical experience with os4 confirmed by further observation of its deeds.

Quote:
I really can't see much more he could do to appease MorphOS and AROS people.


what appeasement is necessary? you know its a policy that has been proven to fail. we simply have chosen a different path up from amiga. i doubt people are going to come back because of nice words.

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 19:31:13
#156 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 149
From: Israel, Haderah

@tlosm

Even though I think we once talked without nicks I would address you by your nick.

I have gone over all of your postings and I realy don't seem to grasp your basis of comparisons (I hope that doesn't entitle me to be called childish or whatever):

The X1k here has had one performance when the gfx driver worked on Lubuntu/LXQt, and another one when I switched to a si card based on aos4.1 developments, which lost compatibility on the Linux side.

This makes me think there is something missing in your understanding of relations between hardware and software in the world and more specifically on linux and even more specifically on Amiga1 on Linux.

I hoped the RadeonHD driver could be backported to linux but understood it was not so viable based on it being a comercial product. This is important not because of movies and stuff (which are a considerable part of current computing uses as home entertainment systems), but because most linux distros rely more and more on gfx hardware acceleration. I remember I tested on the X1k (when the gfx driver worked) Nexuiz and didn't believe how well it performed compared to a supposedlly stronger quad pc. That's because of its use of the gfx card and maybe some fine utilization of power processors.

That brings me to another subject: can you really relate to linux as a single coherent vision like amigaos? this is not a critism of linux as I'm talking about the open source and free world which is available to me based on the X1k. Considering Aminet was open source and free before there was a demand for it (Aminet as a hipster presence ), I have no dillemas about it. I'm using linux mainly because of Hebrew, Libreoffice and Firefox which has a special place for me because of the way I explore the web with it. It's something I have to cope with that FF is so badly optimized (with gfx driver or without it) comapred to other linux-based software. I mean some really "heavy" stuff runs really well while FF struggles.

On to another point: the software side. It seams a lot of the advantages other platforms enjoy are software designed with such a development force benefiting from many contributions that give certain platforms an edge. You know, like the amiga classic used to have. That is a place we are at that should be clear to you when you make your comparisons and if you base them solely on benchmarks and not detailed user-based experiences you can get carried away with conclusions. Amiga is about the user and what he goes through while using the system in its entirety.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 19:44:55
#157 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2302
From: Amiga land

@Srtest

probably my bad english dont made better people understand one thing.
i dont use a Si card i use a Ni card on linux where i have on linux better performances of ioquake3 or netquiz or all other games portet to amigaos
linux compiled version of every game run compared on amigaos about 40% more faster this is on x5000.
if i compare desktop experience on same distro with same kernel with same mesa version and same gpu on g5 and on x5000 i have the feeling to drive an merchedes slk (g5) and after drive a ford ka.
for example darkplace quake on g5 with 6570 made me 380 fps on x 5000 301 this onlinux
but the bed feeling is not about game the bed feeling come when you scroll firefox during browsing open heavy website , open a chat scripts ... start opening more windows.
this is because not the much slower pcie 4x of x5000 but because slow ram performances.

@nuts
the uboot is already set for ddr3 1600 dont need any changing

Last edited by tlosm on 13-Sep-2017 at 07:47 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 13-Sep-2017 at 07:45 PM.

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A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 20:37:13
#158 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 149
From: Israel, Haderah

@tlosm

Nobody is here because of his language skills. Rest assured I understood your claim just not the basis which you made it on.

You claim to have a bad FF experience on X5k compared to G5. I claim to have a bad FF experience compared to Gimp. Why? because Javascript sucks on bigendian power-based computing? I don't have the technical background to say so. It just seams to me that linux is a tank from one view and something that is as far from being a single thing in the computing world, from another perspective. I guess you need a certain brute force to drive a tank but why would you want to drive it? Amiga is the value for money car that fits your familty perfectly while still having some juice for the driver. I like it better than if it was more like a tank. I don't need a tank.

That being said, on that tank with the X1k, Libreoffice gives me a good all-around performance even without opengl. I can show people my presentations and they don't know what I'm using to show it. What goes "under the hood"? I don't know. Isn't it the point of all that abstraction and compatibility of modern developments in computing?

You need to remember that not only are Amiga and Amiga-1 not a standard today, they are as away from being a standard as they possiblly can: they are their own custom creations! If you look at standards today you can for example see, that to make E-UAE jit run really well on the X1k, the developer had to make it compatible with a G5. That is because of Apple that the G5 became a standard in power-based computing. Is the Amiga even close to generate this level of impact? amiga can use its smaller stature and wait to utilitize stuff like Vulcan. Do you want the Amiga to be like those giants? I don't. I actually like it that it is special. I also see how those standards are more infllluenced from big name corps than they are from open source standards like opengl (Ubuntu and Debian dropped ppc32 based on what? it not being a market?). It's currently engineered to help those who already have lots of resources. So what about ingenuity? I don't know if the old amiga companies involved in the first batch of those great computers had enough funds to make its system adhere to something like the opengl advanced specifications. It worked quite well for them starting small (until it didn't).

Last edited by Srtest on 13-Sep-2017 at 08:50 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 13-Sep-2017 at 08:45 PM.

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 21:13:29
#159 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 149
From: Israel, Haderah

@tlosm

I have a question: are there certain parts of various linux distros that can be tailored (custom made) for the current crop of Amiga-1? do we have people that develop for A1 hardware on the open source world (maybe even unintentionally) ? the G5 doesn't need this because when you talk about consumer power-based systems you talk about the G5 and G4 (if we don't touch the subject of 64 bit) not the p6ct or the X5k cpu.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 21:30:37
#160 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2302
From: Amiga land

@Srtest

Amigaone x1 or G5 or Qoriq e5500 / e6500 dont need special optimization. they have the standard ppc instruction (open power) if we dont count on e5500 some fpu instruction are emulated by the kernel.
In a distro like was ubuntu and sons, was build as generic (powerpc-linux-unknow).
this distros work from g3 to up.
different are some new PPc 64 bit distro that are using vsx instruction (power 6/7/8) in some gfx library thant need to be rebuild for older or different cpu (G5,semi,e5500 e6500). for example on fedora server PPc64 i had the same issue on x5k and on G5 and i have rebuild some parts for have this distro working on both machine.

More different are PPc SPE (ps3/tabor) who need a special build distro.

Last edited by tlosm on 13-Sep-2017 at 09:31 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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