@OlafS25

Quote:

when Tabor is ready I will nerve you every day until you buy one...

Great! That will teach me to succumb to peer pressure, listen to internet trolls rather than my wife telling me whether she thinks we can afford it or not and override my own ability to discern whether I will use it more than my Classics. No, why not listen to an internet acquaintance who thinks I should buy an unreleased and unreviewed computer on the back of comments that I...

A) ... felt excited about it!
B) ,,, felt that the Trampoline code was impressive and made up for the less than ideal FPU.
C) ... thought it was the only way AmigaNG was going to realistically gain new users in the foreseeable future!\

Yes, with comments like that I can see why I must buy the machine on day one or be perceived to have fallen foul of the hypocrisy police

P.S. I thought the PSX from Sony was cool too but never bought one! Does that make me a hypocrite or sensible for buying a PS2 Slim and a Humax 9200T instead to fulfil the same functions?



If a PS5 allows to create games using Media Molecules 'Dreams' more economically, relevantly and intuitively than a Tabor for a lower price then I might not buy a Tabor if it is delayed until 2020.



If I lose my job I might not buy a Tabor. If Hyperion force Cloanto into administration (unlikely) then I would not want to be seen to support Hyperion and may not buy the Tabor.

You shouldn't immedietly call me unsupportive of the AmigaONE endeavour just because I tend to weigh all the angles! I'll buy a Tabor if I can justify the expense to myself, to my wife, to my God and whether it compliments my Amiga Classic machines and / or replaces them!

I always appreciate your input into my decision making processes though, how would I decide without it?

Last edited by BigD on 23-Apr-2019 at 10:10 PM.

_________________
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"We have no idea when/if anything will happen with anything related to AmigaNG or AmigaOS 4 or any kind of development, but please stay with us and keep buying (non-available) products because it can't get any worse".

@AdvancedFollower

He didn't say that. If the Vampire V4 was available A-EON would be in trouble and I bet a number of people would have bought that instead. As it stands they will still be first to market and in higher stock levels than the Vampire will ever be (it seems) so if it arrives this year I think it will sell and Trevor and A-EON in general should be applauded for following it through when the Troikas, Tinkers and Adam's of this world couldn't, wouldn't or shouldn't

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

If the Vampire V4 was available A-EON would be in trouble and I bet a number of people would have bought that instead.

That is a common myth. People don't stick with A-EON hardware because the Vampire V4 is not available, but because they want to use OS4. If they wanted to go the OS3 way, they already have a number of options.

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AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
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@Trixie

Quote:

but because they want to use OS4

Having had limited exposure to OS4 and being a killer app kind of guy I struggle to see the value of a better OS experience over being able to use your favourite Amiga programs in a faster / more modern form. The Vampire V4 WILL provide that (as does the Tabor in RunInUAE etc / new PPC apps etc).

If I had £450 to spare both would excite me with slight advantage to the Tabor because I own a big box Classic Amiga already.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

Having had limited exposure to OS4 and being a killer app kind of guy I struggle to see the value of a better OS experience over being able to use your favourite Amiga programs in a faster / more modern form. The Vampire V4 WILL provide that

That's easy. Take your favourite (ahem) Windows programs. How fast do they run on a 486/DX100 for example? Can they run at all? Does that hardware support it? How well does the browser run? There's your answer!

Exchange PC for Mac hardware and OS as and when required.

@Hypex

That's assuming that your favourite 'Amiga' program is a PPC native app. That surely isn't true for many people. I guess they'd be Blender, Hollywood and OWB? You can count them on one hand! I can run Deluxe Paint V on my Classic and Tower57 on my Mac so what exactly would be missing if the Vampire V4 was the machine I chose instead of the Tabor? Difficult one isn't it?

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Hypex

then I take my relativ modern PC running modern OS, software including up-to-date browser, compare your PPC box with it, giggle a little and go away

Seriously why on earth should anyone use PPC for serious work

Both vampire and the hardware you call "NG" (in reality NG is past too) are hobby platforms so who cares if you can run newest software on it hardware-wise if in reality this software will never be available for it, the same is true for Tabor. OK you can run Linux on it but it really not makes sense. Tabor is embedded class hardware today and there are better and cheaper options today.

There is certainly a market for Tabor, partly to replace old hardware, perhaps even some new users who knows but I do not think it will be very successful. Vampire (standalone) and Tabor basically are different products and cover different needs but of course room and money always are limited so whoever is first on market will certainly harm the other but the effect propably will not be very big.

There is not much software on PPC that is not available on 68k except a few games. Perhaps the 3D drivers Trevor D. is financing might improve the situation and offer the chance to get more ports but these games are available on other platforms already so only unique software justifies high expenses. I do not see that in future.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 24-Apr-2019 at 08:19 PM.

@OlafS25

I agree that Tabor and Vampire boards fit different markets/needs. Some people may end up owning both.

In a different thread I was suggesting to redesign Tabor to use a more standard processor but it turns out Trevor pre-paid for a large batch of the CPUs... so I take back that suggestion ;) Maybe after that batch is sold out a newer board could be produced... it all depends on price and demand.

On the software side, it's tricky. As was noted in the interview getting Libre Office ported is proving to be very challenging. Maybe in the long run the better option would be to focus on porting a web browser instead? That way you could use the online versions of (for example) Microsoft's Office 365 or Google's G suite?

I use my PC for remote desktop ("real" work), browsing (forums, YouTube) and email. The email is via O365. If those functions could be accomplished on an Amiga that would be very cool.

A lot of amazing work has gone into getting the 3D foundation built up and some of the recent progress has been quite exciting. Let's see if somehow that could get leveraged into a newer and better-supported browser port.

@Trixie
Quote:

That is a common myth. People don't stick with A-EON hardware because the Vampire V4 is not available, but because they want to use OS4. If they wanted to go the OS3 way, they already have a number of options.

But the goal of Tabor is to increase the user base with a lower cost option. And despite what some claim, the most likely (by far) to buy are current and former Amiga users. Tabor is trying to pull from the same pool as the Vampire is.

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: There is not much software on PPC that is not available on 68k except a few games.

Except about the whole Applications directory in MorphOS :) A good graphical SSH2 client, graphical SFTP client, a modern FLAC/mp3 ripper, modern IDE for development, advanced image processing program, just to pick few of them.

And then the CPU performance issues too, Vampire is still far behind when doing CPU intensive stuff like watching movies, viewing PDFs (they can be very heavy nowadays), doing heavier image processing effects, browsing the net, etc.

And even if Vampire would get on the same level with G4/G5, I still couldn't move back from MorphOS to OS3 because of the advanced features in the OS. OS3 would still be clumsy as hell to use. I'd lose all the new intuition options for general usage in the OS, the very handy screenbar modules, advanced desktop features, shell with tabs/search/session options, 64bit filesystem, many new handy shell commands, integrated Lua, etc etc.

It'd just be impossible for me to step back for me, unless some magic happens and OS3 would get some real development with unbelievably fast pace.

_________________
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@Kremlar

Quote:

But the goal of Tabor is to increase the user base with a lower cost option. And despite what some claim, the most likely (by far) to buy are current and former Amiga users. Tabor is trying to pull from the same pool as the Vampire is.

You can be right, who knows what the future brings.

But below, a quote from the interview where this topic is started from.
Trevor says that in the USA, statistics show that 25% of the X5000 owners did not have an Amiga in the past:

"The number of people attending the Amiga events in Germany and Ireland is actually growing and the vast majority of the attendees are much younger than me. Talking about the USA, some statistics from sales of X5000 suggest that 50% of the buyers had never owned a next-generation Amiga before and 50% of those had never even had an Amiga in the past. So, even with the more expensive X5000, we appear to be attracting new users who are bored with the mainstream offerings and want to experience something different."

Last edited by bennymee on 25-Apr-2019 at 07:01 AM.
Last edited by bennymee on 25-Apr-2019 at 07:01 AM.

@jPV

I wrote a simple PDF viewer using Hollywood which is quiet good working on 68k

It depends how you define "viewing PDFs". Yes they are heavy but only if you support all the dynamic stuff (best support is in Acrobat Reader)

modern IDE on Morphos? What?

most what you describe is not exclusive.

If I want to use a system for everyday-usage I must have something that is safe (f.e. memory protection a real need), I need plenty of ram (not just 2 GB), up-to-date browser, office package and so on

Both Vampire (3.X or Aros) and MorphOS running on old macs share the same problems. Both are (as they are now) are hobby platforms, with the only difference one platform official is pure hobby whereas the other pretends to be professional class

@OlafS25


they might be hobby platforms but the vampire attracts new users everyday and morphos repels users everyday.

And with all the new users rejoining us we'll get better and better software that helps us with our everyday usage.

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @jPV I wrote a simple PDF viewer using Hollywood which is quiet good working on 68k It depends how you define "viewing PDFs". Yes they are heavy but only if you support all the dynamic stuff (best support is in Acrobat Reader)

Well, many pdfs are pretty demanding. The MorphOS machines are just fast enough for conveniant usage. A bit faster would be better though.
Quote:

modern IDE on Morphos? What?

Flow Studio. It's pretty nice.

_________________
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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: I wrote a simple PDF viewer using Hollywood which is quiet good working on 68k

Me too, and was thinking that Vampire users would appreciate it, but haven't got any feedback from them...

Quote:

most what you describe is not exclusive.

Well, can you give me examples of each for 68k? I must have dropped more badly from 68k scene than I thought...

Quote:

If I want to use a system for everyday-usage I must have something that is safe (f.e. memory protection a real need), I need plenty of ram (not just 2 GB), up-to-date browser, office package and so on Both Vampire (3.X or Aros) and MorphOS running on old macs share the same problems. Both are (as they are now) are hobby platforms, with the only difference one platform official is pure hobby whereas the other pretends to be professional class

Well, this is what I want to do with my hobby machines, what are you expecting I should be doing on them? I don't think anyone is pretending to be "professional class" here, just more advanced from the original situation, and I like that.

_________________
- The wiki based MorphOS Library - Your starting point for MorphOS
- Software made by jPV^RNO

@OlafS25

Quote:

Seriously why on earth should anyone use PPC for serious work

Software is always more important than hardware under it. Eg. I use PPaint anytime I need simple brushes for bigger projects and then combine them in GIMP (eg. New Year greetings images). I could sometimes try SketchBlock, which lies unused on my HDD, but looks like powerful application.

Quote:

There is not much software on PPC that is not available on 68k except a few games.

WEBBROWSER!

I don´t need anything superb, I was content even with good old (and fast) IBrowse. Now, IBrowse is not working with many sites due to ssl problems (I hope 2.5 will be there soon - there are this month news on their homepage) and webbrowsing on OS3 is next to impossible.

Sure my computing needs are rather limited (basic webbrowsing - Wikipedia and some news sites, MS Office compatibility and media players), so even Tabor may be capable enough for me. For other uses (games!), I have my cheap notebook, which runs OS4 quite fine (for 300 MHz class G3 without FPU ).

@bennymee

Quote:

Trevor says that in the USA, statistics show that 25% of the X5000 owners did not have an Amiga in the past:

As I said, despite what some people say.

I find that extremely hard to believe, unless of course they've only sold 4 of them.

@ Kronos

"Ermmmmm, Apple bought PASemi before the P6T existed in silicon and canceled it the next day."

I don't normally get involved in forum debates because they are often counter productive but I do like correct false information.

You obviously do not read Amiga Future magazine, or if you do, you did not read my X1000 back story articles with the complete development time line. Plans for the X1000 project started before Apple purchased PA Semi but the project looked dead when Apple acquired PA Semi in April 2008. Although Apple had no interest in the PA Semi product line it did agreed to supply CPUs and support existing customers for an extended period.

Excepts from the 3-part article series:-

"Before any real work could be done, on April 23rd, Apple purchased P.A. Semi for $278M. Initially, it looked like a good move which would secure the future supply and availability of the PA6T-1682M CPUs but then doubt was cast over whether Apple, who only wanted P.A. Semi’s low power technology, would allow the sale of CPUs to new customers. At that stage it looked like the motherboard development would be stillborn."

"There was a potential light at the end of the tunnel. P.A. Semi recommended Varisys Ltd, a UK company as a potential hardware partner to develop the, as yet unnamed, PowerPC motherboard. Because they were already an existing P.A. Semi customer, all the indications were they should be able to obtain the CPUs from Apple."

"Despite an earlier agreement that P.A. Semi could supply CPUs for the Nemo project with payment on 30-day credit terms, Apple would not let P.A. Semi sell the CPUs to Varisys. Paul Gentle, the CEO of Varisys wrote a personal message to Steve Jobs asking him to reconsider the decision. He received a one word reply from Jobs which simply said "Sorry". Fortunately Gentle didn’t give up and sent a follow-up email stressing the future success of Varisys depended on the supply of PA6T CPUs for the Nemo project. This time Jobs replied if Varisys' future depended on the supply of PA6T CPU for one project then their business model was broken. However, a few weeks later the P.A. Semi CTO contacted Gentle to say he had been given approval to supply a small batch of PA6T CPUs for the project."

"Just when I was beginning to think everything was finally coming together, another problem arose which again threatened to derail the entire project. Hermans, on behalf of A-EON, had previously negotiated a purchase agreement with Apple/P.A. Semi for supply of 1800 CPUs on standard thirty day credit terms. However, because of a previous minor payment dispute with Varisys, Apple’s accounting department had unilaterally changed their terms to pre-payment prior to shipping. So to start the project we had to pre-pay Apple for the CPUs we needed for the initial development. Apple had agreed to support the PA6T-1682M CPU until 2011 but, as A-EON was its last customer, it wanted to close down the product line as soon as possible. "

"According to Apple, the CPUs were pre-packaged in batches of 120. Shipping in smaller quantities meant unpacking, re-baking and repacking, something they were not prepared to do for small volumes. Their solution was for A-EON to either pay for an additional thirty-six CPUs to make the total up to 120 or more preferably pay for the remaining 1760 CPUs at a cost of $880,000! "
"In November (2010), an agreement was finally concluded with Apple and they shipped the outstanding 84 CPUs. They also agreed to cancel the remaining portion of the P.A. Semi purchase order for 1676 CPUs and terminate all contractual commitments. "

"Looking to a future commercial release of the X1000, we also began searching for other sources of CPUs. Fortunately, Varisys had access to a small external source of CPUs and, although Apple would not supply CPUs under the cancelled supply contract, it provided details of a company based in Florida which stockpiled CPUs on behalf of customers that might be prepared to sell some of its excess stock. "

Check out Amiga Future if you want to read the full 3-part series.

As for your other comments. Sigh!

TrevorD

Last edited by TrevorDick on 26-Apr-2019 at 03:53 AM.

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@Kremlar

Quote:

And despite what some claim, the most likely (by far) to buy are current and former Amiga users.

Actually, depending on how you like to interpret the word "most", Trevor did mention that about half of their machines buyers have never used Amiga before. I personally thought before that there could maybe be a couple of new users, but I thought it would only be marginal, but based upon this, it seems there could be surprisingly big market from new Amiga Users. I guess we will see when/if Tabor comes out and if it is able to deliver on its cheap price idea. For one possibility is that all those new users are people with a lot of money, and hence they can buy even expensive stuff on a whim, while it could be that despite Tabor's possible cheap price tag, the poorer interested simply can't afford to buy anything that interests them a bit unless there is a clear benefit there buying it, that they can't afford just to try.

Hopefully we will see this one day with Tabor getting out how it is, and hopefully it is that there is a big market from new users (and from old ones too)