@MikeB

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The PS3 supports 7.1 audio, the XBox 360 Elite only 5.1.

Certainly. Not that there are any 6/7.1 HD movies really out there, but games can certainly benefit. 7.1 is better than 5.1 no doubt! PS3 wins audio. I think Elite should have had 5.1 TrueHD support for HD DVD at least.

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With regard to other sound options the US and European model differ somewhat. "Dolby TrueHD can still be decoded inside the PS3 and sent as uncompressed audio to the AV receiver, but if the AV receiver has an integrated decoder it can't be used instead of the PS3's decoder."

I'm not sure any PS3 can pass out lossless audio other than PCM. TrueHD is always decoded and sent out as PCM - hence it doesn't seem to support this feature of HDMI 1.3, so no benefit from a later HDMI version there. This may of course change with upcoming firmware updates!

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Maybe not relevant for the XBox 360's lifespan, but I think relevant for the PS3's lifespan nevertheless.

Possibly. But then for me personally a long lifespan of a console has never been really a plus-side, I'd gladly upgrade in, say, a two or three years time. It will certainly be interesting if a hypothetical Xbox 3 hits the market years before a hypothetical PS4...

@jtsiren

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You don't need HDMI 1.3 to use the best audio formats, HDMI 1.1 is more than enough (I believe Xbox 360 Elite has 1.2?) because Blu-ray and HD DVD audio gets mixed to PCM anyway (to combine movie audio and possible interactive audio)

The v1.3 format is needed if you want to stream DTS-HD or DolbyTrueHD from the player to the receiver. Neither console does this they both internally convert DTHD and send it via PCM.

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No doubt PS3 has an edge over Xbox 360 when it comes the HDMI spesifications and audio output.

HDMI VIDEO- no near, perhaps long, term advantage for the PS3. If there's relevance it's in the marketing - Sony can sell v1.3 and dumb consumers think it's better not realizing their TV sets don't do it. "But it's got 11" - This is Spinal Tap.
HDMI AUDIO - PS3 does do 7.1 surround very cool. But, didn't Sony say games will be 5.1 only? Also aren't the majority of Blu-Ray 5.1 only? I think more are coming 7.1 and will be. The only 7.1 I know of personally is a crappy Sony Surround in a box. Is 7 crappy tweeters better then 5 crappy tweeters? Meh. Spend more on a better 5.1 rather then go cheap on a 7.1, IMO.

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PS3 can get very noisy too when it overheats, so a fan kicking in is just normal.

The PS3 seems to have 3 settings off, low, jet turbo. The 360 does seem to have a variety of speeds. I wonder if Sony cheaped out and went with a 3 speed fan insted of something variable.

360 power supply issue really depends on if there's room in your stand. As the 360+brick is smaller in lenght then my AV receiver there's obviously enough room here and it works fine. No ugly brick to see.



@MikeB
Quote:

With regard to other sound options the US and European model differ somewhat.

Can you explain this better? You put a quote in but didn't say is this Europe only or America only or ? I believe the quote you have put there applies to all model PS3s none do streaming of DolbyTrueHD.

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think when we hit Firmware update 2.0 and free Playstation Home availability many people/media will have to eat their words about the PS3 being a "disaster"

Recently one of the industry analyst companies came out and said that in order for Sony to recover the PS3 they need to cut costs ASAP and apply those savings into a $200 price cut. If they cut out enough they may be able to do this and lose less per console then what have been losing. They predict the PS3 will not catch up with the Wii or 360 within the next 2 years. Also, they didn't comment on what effect a price drop in the 360 or Wii might have in the market. I'd expect if Sony drops their price so will Microsoft. Sony should do it to encourage the 360 to not break even this year. Home could be cool but it is untested on how big of a selling point it will be. Time will tell how the general consumer will or won't like it. Today it's anyone's guess. Losing Sony $2B and loss of marketshare, compared the PS2, isn't necessarily a disaster but I don't think it's where Sony expected to be.

@MikeB

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PS3 being a "disaster" (a premature opinion formed after so-so but roughly on par initial XBox 360 game ports) from a technical perspective.

I personally think PS3 is maturing very nicely. Give me that rumble and I'm very happy with the machine. I still haven't seen anything to really make a call on the performance issue we have been discussing, but as a general-purpose piece of electronics the PS3 is very nice. Not a bad buy at all. Expesive as hell considering I only mostly want it for games, but still.

For me the Xbox 360's strength lies in good gaming, good first-party gaming accessories (killer of a controller compared to PS3) - but as a general purpose machine the PS3 is certainly more versatile and has nice "extras". Sony is a consumer electronics company and this shows more than in PS2. PS3 is certainly designed more to be a multimedia center than Xbox 360, which feels less focused on such features (even if it does offer many similar features).

But straying back to the subject's topic of gaming comparisons... PS3 has yet to prove it offers more for a gamer than Xbox 360 does. This is where the latter really rocks (those into network gaming Live especially) and will likely hold its own or, for all I know, even be superior to PS3. Performance is a hotly debated issue of course, but developer tools and support is also another that will certainly show in what kinds of games we'll see on both machines in the future. We'll see which will be the gamers number one choice! So far the PS3 seems to attract more with its extras than with its gaming prowess.

(Interesting to see if Xbox 360 makes more strides into the living room if that video on demand from Microsoft really takes off. I'm not including that in my current assesments at all really.)

@BrianK

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The v1.3 format is needed if you want to stream DTS-HD or DolbyTrueHD from the player to the receiver. Neither console does this they both internally convert DTHD and send it via PCM.

Sure, but why would you need to send DTS HD MA to your receiver if you can convert it to PCM (mixed with interactive audio too) and then send it to your receiver without any loss of quality... You can get full audio quality with HDMI 1.1 already. And even with HDMI 1.3 even PS3 can't pass DTS HD MA at this at this time, so you're stuck with the DTS core even if your receiver could decode it.

Quote:

360 power supply issue really depends on if there's room in your stand. As the 360+brick is smaller in lenght then my AV receiver there's obviously enough room here and it works fine. No ugly brick to see.

Yeah. I'm not disputing the PS3 is pretty elegant with just network, HDMI and power cord hanging from the back and the rest integrated. It is a nice package especially when looked from afar (too close the plastic looks cheap). But for me the Xbox 360 power brick is hidden as well, so actually the Xbox 360 is quite a bit smaller visible presence than my PS3.

OK. Finally the question why PS3 games looked so much brighter, even washed out by some accounts, that they actually WERE washed out. The PS3 was outputting incorrect colour range (for many displays), now with the firmware update colour range set to Full instead of Limited BTB show correctly and Ridge Racer 7 on the PS3 is visibly darker compared to what it was before (I tried switching between Full and Limited and the difference is obvious). PS3 games will now look closer to Xbox 360 in this regard.

@jtsiren

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Sure, but why would you need to send DTS HD MA to your receiver if you can convert it to PCM (mixed with interactive audio too) and then send it to your receiver without any loss of quality...

If the PS3 could do this completely losing no quality then cool. The question is then does your receiver convert either PCM or DTS HD better? If it's DTS then you'll prefer to not convert to PCM.

PS3 is a nicer package for cabling. But much of this is going to be hidden in one's rack. If you don't have a AV receiver and want to run 1 HDMI to your TV cool. But, then again you don't care about 7.1, I don't think any TVs allow 7 speaker hookups and a sub.

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PS3 is certainly designed more to be a multimedia center than Xbox 360, which feels less focused on such features (even if it does offer many similar features).

Yes the PS3 is designed to be more of the multimedia center. But the 360 is setup nicely to work with PCs. Stream the content or pictures and use RAID on the disc and make backups so much the better setup. The PS3 needs a different GUI. It works but having a GUI cover 20% of the screen makes one wonder why all the wasted space? The 360 GUI is better. The PS3 is rougher around the edges, it's appears to be an engineering design not something consumer tested. 5 years of planning doesn't show in inital execution.

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PS3 has yet to prove it offers more for a gamer than Xbox 360 does.

What paying $600 to play all your PS2 games isn't offering more?

Speaking of games I ran into a headache on the PS3. The first time I played Resistance I told it to go update the game. OMG! 25 minutes later it finished. ICK! That was just the game not the console. The other thing on the PS3 is I have Mpeg4 movies from my Canon camera. For some strange reason there's a few movies that won't run. I've reloaded them and all work fine on the Vista and OSX machines. It might be something in the movie that the PCs can handle better but indeed strange.

@BrianK

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If the PS3 could do this completely losing no quality then cool. The question is then does your receiver convert either PCM or DTS HD better? If it's DTS then you'll prefer to not convert to PCM.

Sure, but considering they are lossless formats, conversion should be lossless as well if implemented correctly. I'm not an expert on details of sound conversion so someone feel free to educate me if necessary. Obviously using HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 requires the sending machine to be able to convert, say, DTS HD MA to PCM first. OTOH, PS3 is HDMI 1.3 and even it can't send native DTS HD MA currently via its HDMI 1.3 port...

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But the 360 is setup nicely to work with PCs.

Acknowledged. Xbox 360 does integrate well with Windows Media Center I believe. I don't use that personally, but it isn't Microsoft isn't making moves towards Xbox 360 being a media center... currently the PS3 just feels a bit more like one.

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What paying $600 to play all your PS2 games isn't offering more?

In 1080p no less! Doh, not really... But again, games will come. We'll see how they stack up.

@MikeB

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Maybe not relevant for the XBox 360's lifespan, but I think relevant for the PS3's lifespan nevertheless.

Troll!

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@jtsiren

PS3fanboy earlier this month:

"Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD are considered two of the highest-end audio formats on the market and since the PlayStation 3 is advertised as being able to support both of them, this caused a bit of an uproar amongst the more hardcore technophile PS3 owners.

Sony responded later in the day though, stating that the PS3 DID indeed support both formats - but that you have to use the PS3 to decode the signals, not a separate AV receiver. A minor bummer, but not a huge deal. Now, I just need $1600 to buy a receiver that actually supports HDMI 1.3."

@BrianK

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The PS3 seems to have 3 settings off, low, jet turbo.

My PS3 has been Folding the last couple of hours, no noticeable noise coming from the media cabinet whatsoever. My PC on the other hand produce way more noise, but far more quiet as compared to playing a disc-based game on the XBox 360...

@jtsiren

Quote:

OK. Finally the question why PS3 games looked so much brighter, even washed out by some accounts, that they actually WERE washed out. The PS3 was outputting incorrect colour range (for many displays), now with the firmware update colour range set to Full instead of Limited BTB show correctly and Ridge Racer 7 on the PS3 is visibly darker compared to what it was before (I tried switching between Full and Limited and the difference is obvious). PS3 games will now look closer to Xbox 360 in this regard.

Possibly your HDTV does not support full HDMI, thus shadows and details get lost, I think this is why many XBox 360 games are darker as this allows you to not notice lost shadows and details so much. Use the following test to determine if your HDTV supports the full range HDMI:

Save this picture to your PS3:
http://sr-388.net/images/patterns/Brightness.jpg

- With the option set to limited, adjust the brightness control on your TV until you can see most/all of the boxes. There are 12 boxes there, but you might not be able to see them all. You should hopefully be able to see at least 9/10 of them.

- Now switch it over to Full range. Can you still see all the boxes? It's very likely that you will only see a full black screen now if you're using a HDTV rather than a DVI monitor.

- If you can turn up the brightness control and see the same number of boxes again, then it seems your display does support the full range. If it stays black, or you can't see as many boxes as before, your TV does not support the full range option and you should be using limited.

Most HDTVs should have it set to limited!

@BrianK

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What paying $600 to play all your PS2 games isn't offering more?

I think it's a huge longterm benefit when more and more PSX and PS2 users start buying HDTVs, they will get far worse results using the original devices, so if they own a significant games library, upgrading to a PS3 seems a much more likely choice rather than going XBox 360!

BTW, European backwards compatibility seems almost complete at this point. So it seems the EE component is almost rendered useless. Wow, so much fuss created about this being left out of the European model! Of course, some vocal XBox 360 fans were shouting the loudest, yet their XBox 360 will never officially support the huge library of PSX and PS2 games.

@MikeB

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Possibly your HDTV does not support full HDMI, thus shadows and details get lost, I think this is why many XBox 360 games are darker as this allows you to not notice lost shadows and details so much. Use the following test to determine if your HDTV supports the full range HDMI:

I doubt that. The image looked washed out before, as in black not reaching blackest levels due to using PC vs. video color levels (blacker than black not showing). In some cases this might make for a nice, clean look, other times it left shadows and night-time tracks lacking. I think we now have the answer why Xbox 360 games looked darker in comparison, Xbox 360 was already outputting the correct range on component (it OTOH had similar issues with VGA, recently fixed by actually adding the very same settings option PS3 is now getting!).

Quote:

- If you can turn up the brightness control and see the same number of boxes again, then it seems your display does support the full range. If it stays black, or you can't see as many boxes as before, your TV does not support the full range option and you should be using limited.

Turning up brightness all twelve boxes show when using Full range as expected. In Ridge Racer 7, Aviator Loop, going from Limited to Full really pumps up the shadow detail from flat before to much like Xbox 360 has. The darkness is now similar. Tracks like Downtown Rave City really benefit from fixing the blacks, it now has a nighttime feel to it unlike before when it looked to sterile - huge improvement.

No need to be defensive about it - the image looking like that of Xbox 360 - adding this option to PS3 is certainly a benefit to the system. You can always leave it off if you want to (or your setup requires it). I will leave it on to get the full colour range.

Last edited by jtsiren on 26-May-2007 at 08:43 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Sony responded later in the day though, stating that the PS3 DID indeed support both formats - but that you have to use the PS3 to decode the signals, not a separate AV receiver. A minor bummer, but not a huge deal. Now, I just need $1600 to buy a receiver that actually supports HDMI 1.3."

PS3 does not support DTS HD (at least MA) at this time. It does convert TrueHD to PCM though.

But what is the point of having HDMI 1.3 (for audio), if PS3 can't pass TrueHD or DTS HD MA bitstream to HDMI? That would be the benefit of having 1.3 - even 1.1 can pass it PCM.

I'm hoping this will be fixed in future firmware releases.

Last edited by jtsiren on 26-May-2007 at 08:42 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

BTW, European backwards compatibility seems almost complete at this point. So it seems the EE component is almost rendered useless. Wow, so much fuss created about this being left out of the European model! Of course, some vocal XBox 360 fans were shouting the loudest, yet their XBox 360 will never officially support the huge library of PSX and PS2 games.

...isn't that a bit like you loudly concerned about Xbox 360 issues when you have no interest in the system? Just kidding, go right ahead - any legitimate issues are always worthy of discussion.

Actually, I think many of the very vocal people about the European PS3 EE issue were PlayStation owners themselves who rightfully felt shafted when Sony chose to sell them less of a machine with more of a price. See PS forums back then. Even today that stings, but personally what can I do about it - it wasn't big enough of an issue for me (getting less hardware for more money) to pass PS3 completely. So I take the punch and live with it - not that I need PS2 support myself anyway.

As for the actual level of support, remember it was Sony who said the support would be limited and not a priority for them. If they since have overdelivered, great, but the low expectation was because Sony actually said the support would be limited (and it has been more limited than on the US versions, what the current status is I haven't really followed).

PS3 is certainly more backwards compatible than Xbox 360. I have always given them credit for that.

Both sides have fans that use any bits of information to make punches (not unlike you yourself?). That doesn't change legitimate issues nor is it something that can be conveniently later used to dismiss entire arguments as just fanboy propaganda... But thank you for trying.

Last edited by jtsiren on 26-May-2007 at 08:48 PM.

@jtsiren

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...isn't that a bit like you loudly concerned about Xbox 360 issues when you have no interest in the system?

What the hell are you talking about? In the past in relation to the PS3 I couln't care less about the XBox 360. It started to matter more to me when some vocal people dissed in-depth PS3 discussions, because the XBox 360 was supposedly superior in any regard, which it's certainly not. You may not agree with me on this today, just like you may have thought the Atari ST to be superior at some point because it had more and slightly better versions of early games which didn't really make use of the benefits provided by the Amiga's custom chips. From a personal perspective I don't care much what fanboys think, I owned an Atari ST but was never enough of an enthusiast of the device myself to not see the Amiga was technically superior and keep an open mind and I gladly upgraded when I finally got the chance as a kid.

The XBox 360 issues have affected my personal life and I am not happy about this. Normally when I temporary get to use something from someone else, I return this in 100% working condition. This should have been the case with the XBox 360 as well!

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shafted when Sony chose to sell them less of a machine with more of a pric

This cheap chip is now as good as redundant, not much need anymore to waste power on it. The higher price is perfectly normal considering higher taxes and localized support/ marketing in different languages, etc. And this impressive state of the art kit is even sold at a loss!

Last edited by MikeB on 26-May-2007 at 09:36 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Sure, but considering they are lossless formats, conversion should be lossless as well if implemented correctly. I'm not an expert on details of sound conversion so someone feel free to educate me if necessary. Obviously using HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 requires the sending machine to be able to convert, say, DTS HD MA to PCM first. OTOH, PS3 is HDMI 1.3 and even it can't send native DTS HD MA currently via its HDMI 1.3 port...

That's because the PS3 is Deep Color only so video HDMI v1.3 compliant but not audio v1.3 compliant. Seems some loss might occur. I believe PCM sampled to 48khz and using 16 bits can send to 7.1. There are 96khz and 24 bits in PCM but I don't believe one can do that in 7.1. DolbyTrueHD supports up to 192Khz in 24 bit for 8 speakers. (Users out there feel free to jump in if you know more about the audio formats, I read what I could in the short time to take a stab at figuring it out.)

Microsoft is making further moves to move into a media center type appliance with the 360. Though I believe that was the plan all along. The Sony may feel a bit more media centric but I think the 360 is the 2nd largest used online audio visual purchasing platform with the the 1st being iTunes.


@MikeB
Quote:

My PS3 has been Folding the last couple of hours, no noticeable noise coming from the media cabinet whatsoever. My PC on the other hand produce way more noise, but far more quiet as compared to playing a disc-based game on the XBox 360...

It's unfair to compare unlike uses. Instead compare comparable uses the sound of virtual games, the sound of Blu-Ray vs HD DVD, the sound of the DVD to HD DVD for gaming. As I stated my launch 360 is definitely the loudest. However the Elite I give a slight advantage to over the PS3, the DVD is really improved over my launch 360. Now as I said I didn't put a dB meter on them and of course one's mileage may vary so this is a seat of the pants feel. Perhaps I got a louder PS3 and a quieter Elite, as manufacturing does try to acheive consistent quality there still exists slight variations.

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I think it's a huge longterm benefit when more and more PSX and PS2 users start buying HDTVs

You dropped the RAZZ on my quote. It was humor dude chill. As for the 360 running PS1/PS2 games. Sony bought BLEEM to help prevent that sort of thing. Can you see the lawsuit and fight if that happened?

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European backwards compatibility seems almost complete at this point

European BC appears to be as complete as it's going to be. Here's SCEE's statement in case you missed it
"This upgrade focused on upscaling and there were no significant backward compatibility enhancements. As we have pointed out on many occasions, our engineer's focus is now on innovative applications and services for PS3 and not B/C, so you are not going to see major changes in future updates"

@BrianK

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It's unfair to compare unlike uses.

Not at all. You have to consider:

First of all, primary uses, with regard to a gaming system being gaming, like playing Gear of War or Resistance: Fall of Man, etc.Secondly Acceptable noise levels vs unacceptable noise levels. The PS3 never reaches the threshold of producing unacceptable noise levels, stored in a media cabinet it's very hard to even notice if it's on stand-by or actually operating. People sleeping in the same room as a XBox 360 may very likely wake up and be bothered with the noise levels the XBox 360 produces, not so with regard to the PS3.

@MikeB

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First of all, primary uses, with regard to a gaming system being gaming, like playing Gear of War or Resistance: Fall of Man, etc

I think your primary use is what I was getting it. People should compare like uses to like uses. Though maximum vs maximum and minimum vs minimum are indeed interesting on their own. But, unless we take a dB meter out this is impressions. No doubt the launch 360 is louder but the Elite compares favorably against my PS3.

Unfortuantely my experience with the PS3 doesn't match yours. After a couple hours of Resistance the Jet Turbines kick in. My rack is fully perforated front, sides, and back. It seems the PS3 doesn't have a setting between low and loud.

People sleeping in the same room? If you're gaming with all the sound off what do you care if it's 5.1 or 7.1? Besides I need it dark the 50" TV illumination on is enough to keep me awake.

@AMiGR

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AMiGR wrote: @KrasH Err, I didn't contradict you or argue with you. Just posted my experience to support you.

Apologies. I misread your posts "intent", which seems harder than usual in this particular thread.

BTW, I don't argue....... much. I usually admit when I'm wrong about something, unlike some in this thread.

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