@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @BrianK Quote: You simply need to pay attention Trezzer didn't call Lair weak. No he said: "all new PS3 [1080p] games will look weak".

That kind of quoting REALLY requires a context. Please, at least provide full paragraph or link to that. I have a very hard to believing Trezzer wrote a blank check on all PS3 games looking weak at 1080p. If he did I will join you in condemning that, but I really, really doubt he made a blanket statement like that. And if he didn't, that is really irresponsible quoting.

@MikeB

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No he said: "all new PS3 [1080p] games will look weak".

Stop quoting out of context. How on earth did you finish University to become a Physiotherapist with so bad referencing skills? If I do a quarter of the things you do here at uni, I will be in front of the disciplinary committee within days.

Last edited by AMiGR on 05-Apr-2007 at 01:00 PM.

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@MikeB

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Within this thread you wrote

Yes, but I was talking about available hardware versus sellthrough. I wasn't focusing on the UK.

@MikeB

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This varies from TV set to TV set, quite a few people notice clear differences.

I was actually surprised to not notice a difference. I am one of those people who really love HDMI, I would have wanted to see more of a difference.

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And becomes more of a requirement as time goes on. Also note that HDMI 1.3 has double the bandwidth of HDMI 1.2 [XBox 360 Elite], this will mostly be beneficial with later complex 1080p games supporting 7.1 Audio, so HDMI 1.2 may be more than sufficient for the XBox 360.

Only necessary if those additional bits in colour space are actually utilized by PS3 and display devices any time in the future. 1.2 (and 1.1) is already well equipped to provide 7.1 PCM lossless audio in addition to the video link. 1.3 is really not needed by anything, since passing TrueHD over HDMI makes no sense (PCM does the trick already and all video players will convert to PCM anyway due to built-in mixing). If Xbox 360 ever comes to support surround PCM, that 1.2 port can handle it. A time when 1.3 provides a tangible benefit over 1.1 or 1.2 is ways in the future and may never come... I think this is a major misunderstanding amogst people at this time.

Obviously it is nice PS3 has HDMI 1.3. My first device to do so, BTW. But any benefit to games (over earlier HDMI) is no where to be seen at this time.

I expect to be running my Xbox 720 in about three to four years time anyway.

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I agree that would help somewhat, but IMO he's pretty stubborn even if he will be proven wrong on many occasions in the future. I will be surprized if at some point he did apologize to me for insulting me even on various occasions regarding things even PS3 game design experts agree on.

...trust me, it is partially because of your style.

@Lou

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Lou wrote: @jtsiren Quote: A fowl-mouth would say the hardware failures are the reason there were so many PS2's sold (as replacements)... but I don't think that is true. Well call me a fowl mouth.

Well, to be honest, I don't really know enough about that particular subject to call anyone anything. I still guess PS2 did great because it did great. Not just because it broke down so much. You may have a point too, of course.

@AMiGR

Quote:

Stop quoting out of context. How on earth did you finish University to become a Physiotherapist with so bad referencing skills? If I do a quarter of the things you do here at uni, I will be in front of the disciplinary committee in days.

Grow up and stop making false allegations and out insults. Please, be objective and do not allow yourself to be influenced by my prior statements that more details are possible in 1080p on the PS3 for which you attacked me on repeatably within earlier threads. My opinion is that 1080p PS3 games will look better than 720p PS3 games, please respect my opinion and deal with it, you're not in the position to prove me wrong anyhow and it will take some time for me to point out I may actually be right on this one considering I was referring to yet to be released games.

@jtsiren

Quote:

That kind of quoting REALLY requires a context.

Yes. First and foremost it was part of my sarcasm tirade and secondly it was taken out of its sentence structure (even had the leading word snipped with no "..." to mark it).

Like I've been saying all along: Simpler games can work fine in 1080p while the most complex will benefit from 720p due to more processing time being available for effects.

That is, of course, what I have been repeatedly saying in this thread - as I'm sure everyone but Mike is aware of by now.

@MikeB

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Grow up and stop making false allegations

He is perfectly correct as far as your so-called referencing goes.

Last edited by Trezzer on 05-Apr-2007 at 01:08 PM.

@MikeB

Learn how to read, I did not question your 1080 vs 720 stuff, that's a discussion long finished, we agreed to disagree. You are posting on an online *public* forum, so you must use correct referencing. Not doing so is a practice frown upon as it makes objective argumentation very hard. I can grab any sentence you've written and use it in a way that totally twists its meaning by taking it out of context. You've done this repeatedly on all threads. This is not a false allegation and not an insult either.

You want to quote someone? Put the whole sentence in quotes and include a link, like this:

"Grow up and stop making false allegations and out insults.", MikeB 5/4/2007

Or use any other style that provides a *link* to what you're quoting.

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@AMiGR

Thanks AMiGR. Excellent posting on quoting.

To make my point, let me quote MikeB from this thread:

MikeB:

Quote:

PS3s are crap, XBox 360 rulez

We can all tell why removing context can really, really distort the message. Obviously MikeB meant to be sarcastic in that posting, but you couldn't tell it just by the quote.

(That is BTW from message 195 in this thread.)

Last edited by jtsiren on 05-Apr-2007 at 01:48 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 05-Apr-2007 at 01:47 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

My opinion is that 1080p PS3 games will look better than 720p PS3 games, please respect my opinion and deal with it

Well, of course they will if 720p on PS3 looks as bad as RR7...!

(Just kidding of course, I'm sure PS3 could do better on 720p than RR7.)

@Trezzer

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Like I've been saying all along: Simpler games can work fine in 1080p while the most complex will benefit from 720p due to more processing time being available for effects.

BTW, how do you feel about this now seeing reviews/comments of some of these early 1080p games at least... do you think PS3 will be able to manage enough complexity at 1080p and do you think we'll see more 1080p games on Xbox 360 because of this too?

Is there a demo of Virtua Tennis 3 for Xbox 360 on Live BTW? I'd like to see that 1080p...

@jtsiren

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Is there a demo of Virtua Tennis 3 for Xbox 360 on Live BTW? I'd like to see that 1080p...

Yup. Jump on and grab it. It's been out for weeks :) Btw if you decide to get the full game I'll grab it too if you're up for some Live matches

Quote:

BTW, how do you feel about this now seeing reviews/comments of some of these early 1080p games at least... do you think PS3 will be able to manage enough complexity at 1080p and do you think we'll see more 1080p games on Xbox 360 because of this too?

Well, basically I have the same view still: In some cases 1080p will work great because there are relatively few things going on - or because you simply don't need extra effects. In those cases 1080p will of course be fine. Basically anything with short drawing ranges and/or relatively low polygon counts and so on. It's of course hard to tell yet where the line is drawn between what you can pull off and where you get the required performance, so we'll just have to see as more and more genres come out.

For games with high visual complexity I think we'll be either seeing 720p games or somewhat compromised games in terms of final visual fidelity.

Another thing worth noting is that at least on 360 (I don't know what's the case on the PS3 in this regard) most games are able to run in 1080i. This gives the full resolution of 1080p even though there's a limit to the frame rate. However, at least the games I've tried out that had 1080i all ran very well - that is the final visual impression was good (I didn't actually try out racing games - I guess I should tomorrow). I wish I could somehow toggle between 1080i and 1080p in Virtua Tennis 3 to see if there is any discernible difference, but since I use the VGA cable I always get the progressive signal. But since you're getting the full 1080 resolution at "half the cost", I think it will probably remain the resolution of choice for more complex games along with 720p for those who have reason to prefer the full progressive signal.

Out of the last three games I've received for Xbox 360 two of them had 1080p support (Earth Defense Force 2017 + TMNT) and the other had 1080i (Bullet Witch). The two 1080p games are of low visual complexity like Virtua Tennis 3 (the developers actually stated that adding 1080p support was extremely easy for that title), while Bullet Witch has somewhat higher visual complexity and lots of things going in with regards to physics.

So I'd say it's fair to assume that low complexity games will be going to 1080p - and in the case of Virtua Tennis 3 it does make the game look a bit better due to what I'm guessing is texture optimization for 1080p (other games have looked better in 720p, but Virtua Tennis' textures do look better in 1080p than in 720p - leading me to think that the textures were made for 1080p and merely work well enough in 720p as it is).

I don't think we'll be seeing a flag-ship title like Halo 3 going 1080p, simply because I'm pretty sure they'd rather have more processing time for a greater number of enemies on-screen, the Rayleigh and Mie scattering effects, better water effects and so on (if anyone is curious what the latter bits are about, I can recommend reading this weekly update from Bungie) rather than being able to tick off "1080p" in the feature list.

Last edited by Trezzer on 05-Apr-2007 at 02:15 PM.

@MikeB

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No he said: "all new PS3 [1080p] games will look weak".

And compared to what would be possible in 720p he's right. Note the various 1080p games that Sony is showing off. They appear to lack anti-aliasing. Now change the game to 720p and add anti-aliasing and you're now better then 1080p. So the question begs can they not use AA at 1080p or are the developers just lazy?

@MikeB

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My opinion is that 1080p PS3 games will look better than 720p PS3 games, please respect my opinion and deal with it, you're not in the position to prove me wrong anyhow and it will take some time for me to point out I may actually be right on this one considering I was referring to yet to be released games.

It all depends on if the ps3 has the power to do that. Many of the more complex titles so far suffers from 1080p or/and lack of AA and they could in my opinion look better at 720p with smoother framerate, AA, vsync and so on enabled.
So it kinda looks like at the moment that they are dropping features just to improve perfomance, so that they can claim that they have 1080p.
The thing is that people get excited by such numbers, just like the mhz bull with the p4.

The thing is you speak like your opinion is fact, instead of speculation. I just dont know how the future games will loon on the ps3 and xbox 360, but i am pretty sure it will improve with time on both of them.

Last edited by Tomas on 05-Apr-2007 at 02:19 PM.

@MikeB
And just to provide some bias the other way:
Game dev claims that the xbox 360 has the superior gfx chipset
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Graphics: The XBOX 360 is a clear winner. The GPU is more powerful. It has more powerful fillrate, and far more pixel and vertex processing horsepower. Part of the reason is their choice of memory, and architecture of pixel and vertex procesing. I can’t get into details but the same vertex shader will run much slower on the PS3 than the XBOX 360. The 360 also has a clever new way rendering high definition anti aliased back buffers.

Is probably biased as he*l though, but no worse than what you have quoted earlier.

@MikeB

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So just some food for though for people dissing the PS2 as not being a major factor within the gaming industy anymore

I don't recall anyone saying this. But, it is not 7th generation. But as you recount the PS2 sells more then the 360 or the Wii. You do conveniently neglect that the PS2 sells more then the PS3, too.

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Though with regard to Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD player install base Blu-Ray players now outnumber HD-DVD player more than forty-fold, so IMO not strange Australia's largest DVD retailer decided to not stock HD-DVD movies.

Yet sales of Blu-Ray are 2:1 or 3:1, depending on your source, not anywhere near 40:1. Seems though there are 40x as many Blu-Ray players in the form of PS3s it appears only 1/10th are actually putting $$ towards Blu-Ray movies.

@Thomas
Thanks for the reminder on the 360 GPU it is more powerful. Now I'm sure we'll see MikeB grasping that the SPEs can be used to augment the power of the GPUS, but obviously there's still a trade-off here that SPE is doing graphics not, for example, AI so the AI will in turn likely be weaker. Making games is about balance on a console.

It is interesting Sony even included a GPU. I'll have to find the statements but from what I recall early on Sony advertised the Cell as doing everything including all the graphics. It's interesting it's not and interesting they didn't use 2 Cells one for graphics and one for processing but true GPU. I think it's simply the case of Sony advertising features before they knew what their true shipping config would be. I snap it in the bucket w/ dual HDMI and the 4 port Gigabit router included in the PS3.

@Trezzer

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Another thing worth noting is that at least on 360 (I don't know what's the case on the PS3 in this regard) most games are able to run in 1080i. This gives the full resolution of 1080p even though there's a limit to the frame rate.

I didn't know that. I have always only used the 720p and the 1080p settings. I'll see if flipping it to 1080i will change anything (I guess that should be possible since I use component, right?). Thanks for the comments on resolutions, interesting read. It will certainly be fun to see how this resolution thing will work itself out.

And if I ever do get Virtua Tennis 3, you can beat me on it anytime.

Speaking of effects, PGR4 seems to have some that are reminiscent of Cell-running effects MikeB has been talking about, more about that e.g. here:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=161191

"The biggest feature in the fourth instalment seems to be a whole bunch of fancy weather effects, including water that beads realistically on the paintjobs, sprays from the tires and causes madness in the in-car view."

@MikeB

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Though with regard to Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD player install base Blu-Ray players now outnumber HD-DVD player more than forty-fold, so IMO not strange Australia's largest DVD retailer decided to not stock HD-DVD movies.

Finland's largest DVD retailer Anttila started carrying HD-DVD just now, saw a nice selection in a store this week. I haven't seen Blu-ray there yet, but I'm sure they (at least some stores) are carrying that too. These things are just now starting to shape up outside of U.S. where things got a head start.

Last edited by jtsiren on 05-Apr-2007 at 03:12 PM.

@AMiGR

To put in context why you behave the way you do regarding childish allegations. This is how the argument started.

AMiGR:

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Mike, if the XBox 360 GPU can't handle 1080p with all details, the PS3 one certainly can't. This has nothing to do with using weird SPEs or anything, it's about GPU technology that has been on the market for quite a while and has been exploited quite well in the PC world, it's not about unknown technology.

MikeB:

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The difficulty of supporting 1080p really depends on the complexity of the game. Virtua Tennis, another game which will support 1080p is less complex than a top title FPS game, so I don't think that would be hard at all.

AMiGR:

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No matter how much you optimise, the hardware always has physical limits. At such high a resolution, you will be hitting the actual maximum fill rate and will stress the Pixel Shader pipelines on scenes that are too complex with too many effects. Sure, you can have the SPEs handle Vertex Shader operations, but what about the Pixel Shaders?

MikeB:

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My point was developers are going to push the hardware more and more. First they thought about doing the game in 720p, then they received the final specs / new developer kits and became confident to fully support 1080P. They think the PS3's capabilities are more than capable to handle the best looking games ever in 1080P. I think we should respect that opinion and allow them to have a chance to prove the naysayers wrong. Not aimed at you Trezzer, but IMO we should respect eachother's opinions and don't try to hit each other below the waist just because we don't agree with each other on issues. Time will eventually tell who is right and wrong, in the meantime we politely exchange points of view and share information.

A few hundred messages later AMiGR stil argued with me about our differences of opinion regarding 1080p, eventually getting AMiGR upset resorting to anger and insults (to put into context why I state he should grow up, the XBox 360 and PS3 are just gaming consoles and there was no need for this). But actually for a large part we agreed in the end becasue he must have misread what I stated from the very beginning quoted above, the only matter we did not agree on was that 1080p PS3 will have fewer effects or not than 720p, details which will or won't be better on the PS3.

I think the PS3 is technically powerful enough to handle the most complex games we have seen so far for the PS3 and XBox 360 in 1080p, only the game engines need to mature to take full advantage of Blu-Ray streaming, the Cell and RSX. For me it's obvious that in a 1080p resolution game as compared to 720p one can show more details regarding high res textures, a flare effect or many other effects may also look more impressive with a higher resolution.

Last edited by MikeB on 05-Apr-2007 at 03:43 PM.