@MikeB

Quote:

Although I do know, as seeing is believing, but that doesn't per se make me the best person in the world to educate you. For one I am no code-wizard, however I do want to understand what is going on as much as possible and so I will ask the ears off of people who actually are. Sometimes you experience things you cannot quite explain in detail yourself but you know are correct. For instance the average person may have difficulties explaining to people who never saw a TV before how the device actually works, but that doesn't make this person wrong, a liar, dumb or anything like that.

It doesn't make the person dumb, no, but I would suggest to that person not to insist on points he or she does not understand without providing full references as to how the opinion was formed. The reason being that without doing so, the person falls victim to in fact blindly relaying someone else's point of view, instead of having their own. I have not called you a liar and do you honestly think that I would be speaking to you right now if I thought you were dumb? Talking to dumb people is generally a waste of time, isn't it? Anyway, if they are wrong on that issue, yes, of course it makes them wrong.

Quote:

I never had a problem with you or others telling me that they believe I was wrong but I do dislike disrespect being shown when I simply don't agree with your perspectives, IMO treat others the way you yourself would like to be treated.

How about when people do not "believe" you are wrong but know as an absolute indisputable fact that you are wrong, post technical details proving you wrong and all they are asking for is just admittance? Would it have harmed you that much to acknowledge that you had a view about procedural synthesis that has long been outdated? I gave you the links to check out that fact yet you would just keep posting the same thing and some quotes, obviously not following or reading anything in the pages I pasted apart from the things you wanted to read.

Have I treated you in the same way? Perhaps, and for that I apologise.

Quote:

For example the whole 1080p discussion between us wasn't really necessary as in the end we generally both agreed on what I wrote within the first message regarding this topic. Any disrespect or insult was really uncalled for, the things Factor 5 stated here were pretty similar to my replies to you.

Our discussion on 1080p was a discussion about semantics. If you have any contacts at Factor 5, feel free to give them a link to that thread on that matter and I will be glad to be proven wrong.

Quote:

You could shout at Factor 5 as much you want, but they won't listen to you and would simply drop your email in their SPAM trashbox, I however do listen as I care and did try to take you serious.

You do listen but you are not paying attention to what you're listening to.

Quote:

You may want to take a look in the mirror though.

Do you want a list of the number of times I've apologised for being wrong? It would take weeks to compile. At least acknowledging that you got something out of someone's post, no matter if it is for or against your point of view is good practice.

Again, the fact that you're not agreeing with me is irrelevant, minator doesn't agree with me either but you don't see me arguing with him.

Last edited by AMiGR on 24-Apr-2007 at 11:48 PM.

_________________

@BrianK

Quote:

If what you're saying is true then does multithreaded not play any role in anything?

Of course it does - that's why it's there!

Because the cores are in-order and have fairly high latency to RAM a single thread can't pull in enough data to keep the processor fed. With a single thread the core would just keep stalling, a second thread ensures the processing units are kept busy.

The Cell's PPE is similar to the XCPU's cores and has the same problem (actually all processors do but that's another issue). It also has multi-threading.

The SPEs don't have multithreading because of their different memory system, they can double or multi-buffer data and this allows them to keep the processing units fed.

Quote:

You seem confused about this statement as I never said one couldn't play on and SDTV.

Wasn't really sure, just it sounded a bit like that.

--

On HD-DVD Vs BluRay

If this huge order for HD-DVD players is true* it's completely changed the game, Instead of one dying a quick death as I have long expected, we could see a prolonged battle.
It could however do the price of the PS3 the world of good, a price cut this year is pretty much a given but this could force them to be more aggressive. I wouldn't be surprised if the job cuts have something to do with it.


--

@AMiGR

Quote:

minator doesn't agree with me either.

I don't?

_________________
Whyzzat?

@minator

Thanks for the mulithreaded info. The Xenon is definitely theoretically beat by the Cell. However in the videogame realm I'd be surprised if we ever see more then a handful of games on the PS3 that couldn't be done on the 360. Likely by the time the developers get it all ticking away the Xbox3 will be out and Sony will be scrambling for the PS4.

HD DVD vs Blu-Ray...
Wal-Mart is the one that announced the large flux of Chinese players this summer. I would assume Target and Best Buy are now working on getting more HD DVD players too because they want to minimize Wal-Mart's impact. Also coming this summer is the dual BR/HD DVD formatted media. I can't think this will only serve to ensure the interest of both formats.

One has to wonder about Microsoft. Before they said there's no Blu-Ray drivers for Windows, is this perhaps a hint where their interests lie & what actions they are likely to take?

@AMiGR

Quote:

Our discussion on 1080p was a discussion about semantics.

IMO nothing to become upset about. We agree 1080p is more demanding, I don't agree at all there would be fewer details possible at this resolution. I also think the PS3 is powerful enough to implement *more* than enough effects at this resolution for almost any type of game. And that's actually all and IMO shouldn't really have take dozens of messages to ague about nor raise any blood pressure.

@minator

Well, you did not agree with what I posted, corrected me, and now we do agree, since I learnt better.

_________________

@MikeB

Quote:

We agree 1080p is more demanding, I don't agree at all there would be fewer details possible at this resolution.

1080p is 1920x 1080 or ~2M pixels. Computers use a semi close pixel resolution of 1600 x 1200 which is ~1.9M pixels. 720p is about 1/2 the 1080p pixel count. If you're looking to do 1080p60 that is 60 a data rate of 60 frames per second.

Have you viewed any of the performance ranks for the 7800GTX cards? The RSX on the PS3 is a G70 in the same family but with some changes. Fear in 1600x1200 w/ 4x FSAA and 8x anisotropic filtering on the 7800GTX is about 25 frames per second. Definitely under the 60 frames per second rate gamers are looking for. I think we're already seeing on the PS3 that to off-set this sort of frame rate that anti-aliasing is being turned off. By doing that developers have made the choice to up the frame rate with the side impact of uping the jaggies.

One other trade-off would be the developer could have made the decision ot keep 4x8 and keep 60fps but drop to 720p and again the frame rate would with the added bonus of less jaggies. -- This may be a better solution for some games.

Now the other option would be, as you've mentioned before, to pull on the Cell to use an SPE or 2 to help with the video. Theoretically sharing 2 SPEs off the Cell to aid the RSX would likely push Fear into the 1080p60 range with 4x FSAA and 8x AF. But, since those 2 SPEs are used for video they leave the developer with 4SPEs for other game needs. ( Of course there's 7 and 1 for the OS leaves 6 and 2 to help video leaves 4.) This may be the right option for games but perhaps the trade off here is 4 SPEs forcing a choice of less AI or less objects w/ independant AI which may or may not be suitable for the developer.

Now those were examples of choices the Fear developers will likely have to make to ensure youre 1080p60fps in full detail is always done.

Other games there isn't this problem one example is Doom3 1600x1200 frame rates w/ 4x8 are around 80fps so plenty of power there to handle the 1080p60 sort of setup. Likely the same detailing, AA, AF, and frame rate of a 720p. Thus, a developer of Doom3 will probably push to 1080p w/ everything on because the game simply is simply less resource intensive then what the PS3 provides.

I hope those examples illustrate the reasons behind using 720p vs 1080p and how there isn't a guarantee on the PS3 that 1080p will always be the same video as 720p.

@BrianK

Nice posting, the need for more filtering and higher FPS rates also depends on the game type and the graphics-engine/art. But the usefulness for additional graphics filtering is for instance dependent on the screen resolution (the higher the less useful), display size (the smaller the less useful), color contrast (the closer the color schemes of neighbouring colors, the less useful, etc) 30 FPS would be sufficient in terms of eye motion detection for many games, for instance the bulk of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray movies are being converted from a 24 FPS source which look fluent to the human eye, so if you want to have your game look like a movie, maybe combined with some motion blur during the faster paced action, 30 FPS would be more than sufficient.

But I have no worries, next christmas we'll do some interesting comparisons and I think the Cell/RSX is a little more powerful than you think.

@MikeB

Thanks some good points.
Quote:

the need for more filtering and higher FPS rates also depends on the game type and the graphics-engine/art. But the usefulness for additional graphics filtering is for instance dependent on the screen resolution (the higher the less useful), display size (the smaller the less useful), color contrast (the closer the color schemes of neighbouring colors, the less useful, etc)

The smaller the screen size not only is there less usefulness for filtering there's less usefulness for 1080p resolution over 720p. Since the 360s Xenos CPU gives one AntiAliasing for free I see little reasons not to use it whereas there's a slight penality for the RSX to AA so I can see where to gain FPS developers are steering away from it. Again your eye better detects 1080p over 720p with greater contrasting colors so reducing contrast reduces the need for 1080p.

Quote:

maybe combined with some motion blur during the faster paced action, 30 FPS would be more than sufficient.

I can tell the difference on PC gaming between 30FPS and 45FPS on a 1280x1024 screen. So, for me the 60FPS is the better choice the more realistic the more towards 60fps developers have to be. As for adding artifical motion blur it does the job but loses realism. It sometimes works fine depending upon visual stylings of the games overall.

Quote:

I think the Cell/RSX is a little more powerful than you think.

Historically Sony has overpromised and under delivered, Cell doing it all and now being aided by the RSX is one example as is the loss of the 2nd HDMI output. Publishing Cell theoretical numbers which include 8 SPEs but only using 7 SPEs doesn't inspire confidence in their numbers either. I am knocking Sony down by estimating likely real performance against their published theoretical best but I wouldn't be too surprised if the Cell/RSX is a little less powerful for gaming than I think.

@BrianK

Quote:

I am knocking Sony down by estimating likely real performance against their published theoretical best but I wouldn't be too surprised if the Cell/RSX is a little less powerful for gaming than I think.

You might be right, but phrasing it that you knock down Sony because you suspect something sounds strange to me.

Just stick to the facts...

@jiyong

Quote:

You might be right, but phrasing it that you knock down Sony because you suspect something sounds strange to me. Just stick to the facts...

How can one 'stick to the facts' of real performance when companies publish a theoretical best performance which is never realized and include extra processing, an 8th SPE in this case, which isn't used.

Plus if you look back you can see the pages from IBM I included on performance of the cell in actual testing. While lower then the paper actual even that is high due to that testing running optimized code for a single problem and not anything that would be usable as a game. So saying I don't use facts isn't quite correct either. I used facts of testing best cases which is lower then Sony's published performance numbers. This is why I later say I wouldn't be surprised that their actual is lower then what I used as what I used was optimized single purpose testing.

Last edited by BrianK on 26-Apr-2007 at 03:32 AM.

From GamesIndustry.biz:

Quote:

The Japanese software charts are still being dominated by Nintendo titles, as Super Paper Mario enters the charts at number one, selling 144,192 copies according to data from Media Create. There are twenty Nintendo titles in the top thirty, as the Japanese publisher continues to enjoy success with its DS and Wii consoles. However, there are two new entries in this week's top ten on the PlayStation 2 – Fate/Stay Night which sold 134,887 units and Persona 3 Fes, which managed just over 90,000 sales. Other new entries include manga tie-in Nodame Cantabile for the DS which sold 50,785 copies and Square Enix's Final Fantasy for the PSP, shifting 48,559 copies in its first week. There are no PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360 titles in the Japanese top thirty this week.

Quote:

01. Super Paper Mario (Wii) - 144,192 / NEW 02. Fate/Stay Night [Réalta Nua] (PS2) - 134,887 / NEW 03. Persona 3 Fes (PS2) - 90,369 / NEW 04. Nodame Cantabile (DS) - 50,785 / NEW 05. Final Fantasy (PSP) - 48,559 / NEW 06. Phoenix Wright 4 (DS) - 48,296 / 298,482 07. Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis (DS) - 46,605 / 138,621 08. Wii Sports (Wii) - 43,822 / 1,400,788 09. Wii Play (Wii) - 30,818 / 1,178,629 10. Yoshi's Island DS (DS) - 30,815 / 701,247

Sam's Club has Xbox 360 HD-DVD addon for $72
http://kotaku.com/gaming/deal/get-a-360-hd+dvd-drive-for-72-255347.php

In hardware sales in Japan,
DS and Wii lead again with slightly more units than last week.
PS3 barely sold over 10,000 units!
360 sold just under 3000.

So an Elite 360 and HD-DVD = $552 right now in the US. With Walmart forcing HD-DVD down everybody's throat, it's looking like the better option over the $600 PS3, though only marginally so at this point. People here under-estimate the power of Walmart. That's a pretty big deal if you know anything about business and economics.

Maybe Nintendo will suprise us this Christmas and release a Wii SP with HD-DVD playback instead of just plain DVD playback for $300.00... One can dream... Yes, the Wiisp.

@Lou

Quote:

PS3 barely sold over 10,000 units! 360 sold just under 3000.

Good, both are thus still on track considering my forecast of::

MikeB wrote a few weeks ago:

Quote:

I estimate by the time major Japanese blockbusters Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots and Final Fantasy XIII have been released the PS3 will have sold roughly 1.2 to 1.4 million PS3s and the XBox 360 will have an installed base of a little less than half a million. By then I expect the gap to widen more quickly.

IMO there's still hope regarding Japan considering Famitsu's most wanted list. Lost Oddesey seems to be the XBox 360's last hope for Japan.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: PS3 barely sold over 10,000 units! 360 sold just under 3000. Good, both are thus still on track considering my forecast of:: MikeB wrote a few weeks ago: Quote: I estimate by the time major Japanese blockbusters Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots and Final Fantasy XIII have been released the PS3 will have sold roughly 1.2 to 1.4 million PS3s and the XBox 360 will have an installed base of a little less than half a million. By then I expect the gap to widen more quickly. IMO there's still hope regarding Japan considering Famitsu's most wanted list. Lost Oddesey seems to be the XBox 360's last hope for Japan.

That one (biased) way to interpret the data. If you look at the last few weeks of data, the 360 sales have been relatively steady, however the PS3 is loosing sales in the double-digit %'s. My prediction from last week was that within 2 months, the 360, by maintaining it's sales, will outsell the PS3 on a week to week basis because of the rate of decline in sales there.

Lost Oddessey may blip the 360 sales over the PS3... The PS3's release schedule for Japan is not outstanding for the next couple of months:

04/26 Madden NFL 07 (English Version)
05/24 NBA Street Homecourt
06/07 FolkSoul: Ushinawareta Denshou
06/14 Call of Duty 3
Ninja Gaiden Sigma
06/21 Def Jam: Icon (English-Language Ver...
06/28 Marvel: Ultimate Alliance
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas
07/05 Boku no Natsuyasumi 3

compared to the 360's Japanese releases:
04/26 Test Drive Unlimited
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas
05/24 Forza Motorsport 2
NBA Street Homecourt
06/14 Bullet Witch (Xbox 360 Platinum Co...
Dead Rising (Xbox 360 Platinum Coll...
Fight Night Round 3 (Xbox 360 Plati...
Tenchu Senran (Xbox 360 Platinum Co...
Trusty Bell: Chopin no Yume
06/21 Saints Row
Shadowrun
07/12 Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advan...

I think we will see a few blips...

Evenually, the Japanese gamer will see that the 360 has the games TODAY. The week of 6/14 should be quite interesting when comparing the 2 platforms...

However, none will touch the Wii:

04/26 One Piece Unlimited Adventure, The Dog Island: Hitotsu no Hana no ... , Wii de Yawaraka Atama Juku
05/17 Marvel: Ultimate Alliance, Meitantei Conan: Tsuioku no Gensou ...
05/24 Jissen Pachi-Slot Pachinko Hisshouh...
05/31 BioHazard 4 Wii Edition
06/07 Bokujou Monogatari: Yasuragi no Ki, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World&...
06/14 Go! Go! Minon, Mahou Sensei Negima!? Neo-Pactio Fi...
06/21 Hajime no Ippo Revolution
06/28 Donkey Kong Taru Jet Race
07/12 Dragon Quest Sword: Kamen no Joou t...
07/26 Puyo Puyo!

As for this weeks sales, it will be interesting to monitor Super Paper Mario's sales. That game is a hell of alot of fun and I expect it have Top 10 sales for a number of weeks. Once people play it at someone else's house, they will buy their own copy.

Last edited by Lou on 26-Apr-2007 at 03:00 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 26-Apr-2007 at 01:46 PM.

@Lou

I don't think PS3 sales will drop down towards XBox 360 levels of 1500-3000 sales a week like we have seen in the past. Microsoft already fired its most powerful bullet, Blue Dragon, the main PS3 blockbusters are however yet to come (Gundam Masou being the highest profile PS3 game we have seen for the Japanese market so far).

Comparing the data:

376,500 XBox 360s sold in 72 weeks.

vs

885,475 PS3s sold in 24 weeks.

Having 'steady" sales of around 2,666 XBox 360s a week currently, I don't consider to be good at all at this point of time. At this point the XBox 360 has much more software available and the orignal XBox is already retired (360 receiving full attention), yet Microsoft has been unable to harvest on such facts.

Last edited by MikeB on 26-Apr-2007 at 02:35 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

IMO there's still hope regarding Japan considering Famitsu's most wanted list. Lost Oddesey seems to be the XBox 360's last hope for Japan.

There are other Japanese games coming too it all doesn't rest on one single lynch pin.

Though looking at the 7th Gen numbers for Japan it appears the Wii will be the clear winner against the PS3 and 360. It's a bit sad to see how hard the mighty Sony has fallen in their home turf. Clearly the PS3 is not the market owner that the PS2 was.

Fresh after laying off 160 mostly UK employees, Sony decided they needed to trim more fat:

http://kotaku.com/gaming/playstation/ken-kutaragi-steps-down-at-playstation-255545.php

HD DVD vs Blu-Ray news
998,000 vs 1M+ in unit sales -- very close
Excluding the PS3 and Xbox360 add-ons gives HD DVD players a 4:1 lead in sales.


Sony disappoints again? Sony had announced a HD replacement for the eyetoy. Today they announced the camera PlayStation Eye which is not HD. Included is editing software so one can do some entry level editing on the PS3.

@Lou

Quote:

Sam's Club has Xbox 360 HD-DVD addon for $72

The last paragraph of the article makes you wonder:

Quote:

Gizmodo points out the sale may be due to certain clubs no longer stocking the device anymore.

@BrianK

In a thread where MikeB is asked to come with facts, your statement didn't make much sense to me.

Like I said, it's more your phrasing and sort of revealing the "undercurrent".

@jiyong

Thanks hope that pointing out where I used my performance facts from help cleared it up. It's a long thread so if there are any questions I'll gladly try to back step and relink to where that info is from.


@Lou
Re: Kutaragi stepping down --- in days of ago seppuku may have been more appropriate.