@amigang

Quote:

....just seen some vids on the upcoming Snapdragon arm Pc laptops and Windows 11. This might be the beginning of the end for old x86.

There is a different Problem now Qualcomm has the obligation to destroy designs that were derived from Arm technology

https://www.reuters.com/technology/arm-qualcomm-legal-battle-seen-disrupting-ai-powered-pc-wave-2024-06-10/

@OneTimer1

Softbank/ARM's greed couldn't form X86's independent second source like AMD.

Intel's and AMD's X86 patent swap agreement and AMD's cleanroom X86 CPU designs fulfill X86's second-source risk reduction. Thanks to IBM for establishing second-source X86 insurance.

AMD's K12 is known to be cleanroom AArch64 based on Zen microarchitecture R&D.

When compared to AMD's cleanroom cloning, Qualcomm is an amateur.

Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2024 at 04:37 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2024 at 03:58 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2024 at 03:55 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2024 at 03:49 AM.

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@OneTimer1

I’m pretty sure when so many companies are involved and the chips are already in production a solution will be made, I doubt deigns will have to be “destroyed� it’s more likly Qualcomm will have to pay some extra royalties if they loose.

_________________
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Just adding 2 cents to this discussion :)
1. Microsoft mentioned that they are going to design now ARM Cpu's as apple did
2. x64 has to get more complex and to size down at the same time.. ARM was always the "less complex" architecture and they basically leapfrogged.

They got smaller and smaller and now have a huge gap between them and x64.
This gap is now going to be filled with additional stuff...

somewhere in the middle ARM Architecture may look like a future x64. or the other way around x64 will look like an ARM soc. Based on complexity

I think majority of people like to able to move to the couch, or travel with their computer and get good performance when doing + it should last for some hours.

So people moved from "I want the maximum performance" to "I need to get my things done wherever I am". Majority of users today also don't dig into the OS. It's not about computing and knowing what happens.. it's just a tool to do some tasks and who cares than about CPU Architecture.

China is interesting. Due to their rules they want to get rid of foreign systems.
there is longaarch which they created (afaik it is MIPS based) and they have x64 Cpu's based on former VIA I assume...

If x64 vanishes or loosed ground will basically be defined by GPU power. As soon an ARM system can beat Nvidia's and AMD offerings at low energy consumption, gamers will be happy. And than its over.

Rumors say that next XBOX and Playstation will be ARM as well...

Sorry this is like 50 cents now :D

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 16-Jun-2024 at 01:04 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 16-Jun-2024 at 01:03 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 16-Jun-2024 at 01:02 PM.

_________________
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@phoenixkonsole

1. https://www.tomsguide.com/gaming/ps6-first-specs-leak-and-sonys-sticking-with-amd-cpus-heres-what-we-know
Quote:

In a recent video, Moore’s Law is Dead claimed to know with "100%" certainty that Sony will continue its partnership with AMD to power the PS6 and PS5 Pro

https://www.notebookcheck.net/First-look-at-Microsoft-s-purported-Xbox-handheld-via-leaked-FTC-docs-Next-gen-Xbox-in-2028-could-use-AMD-Zen-6-or-ARM-with-Navi-5-GPU-and-NPU.752621.0.html
Quote:

Next gen Xbox in 2028 could use AMD Zen 6 or ARM with Navi 5 GPU and NPU

2. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/microsoft-is-designing-new-processor-for-windows-12-report
Quote:

But it may be another customized Snapdragon, rather than a wholly internal project.

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@amigang

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVz7oGGG2jE

For games, AMD Ryzen 8840U Hawk Point APU-based GPD Win Mini 2024 murdered Snapdragon X Elite based Asus Vivobook S 15 Review.

Callisto Protocol 720p low settings

GPD Win Mini 2024 AMD 8840U, 20 watts = 58 fps

GPD Win Mini 2024 AMD 8840U, 15 watts = 50.2 fps

Asus Vivobook S 15 Snapdragon X Elite 34 watts = 29.2 fps

Asus Vivobook S 15 Snapdragon X Elite 23 watts = 26.2 fps

--------------

Horizon Zero Dawn 720p Favor Performance

GPD Win Mini 2024 AMD 8840U 20 watts = 91.2 fps

GPD Win Mini 2024 AMD 8840U, 15 watts = 79.9 fps

Asus Vivobook S 15 Snapdragon X Elite 34 watts = 49.7 fps

Asus Vivobook S 15 Snapdragon X Elite 23 watts = 36.5 fps

--------------

Cyberpunk 2077 720p SteamDeck Preset No Upscaling

GPD Win Mini 2024 AMD 8840U 20 watts = 53.9 fps

Asus Vivobook S 15 Snapdragon X Elite 38 watts = 30.4 fps

Asus Vivobook S 15 Snapdragon X Elite 19 watts = 28.9 fps

GPD Win Mini 2024 AMD 8840U 10 watts = 24.9fps

--------------

Shadow of the Tomb Raider 720p TAA Low Setting

GPD Win Mini 2024 AMD 8840U 20 watts = 92.3 fps

GPD Win Mini 2024 AMD 8840U, 10 watts = 49.7 fps

Asus Vivobook S 15 Snapdragon X Elite 35 watts = 49 fps

Asus Vivobook S 15 Snapdragon X Elite 20 watts = 44.4 fps

--------------
https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-radeon-890m-rdna3-5-igpu-to-be-36-faster-in-gaming-than-780m-claims-laptop-maker

GPD confirms AMD Ryzen AI HX 370 Strix Point's Radeon 890M IGP is 36% faster than AMD Hawk Point's 780M IGP. Radeon 890M's RDNA 3.5 has improved raytracing and will deliver the extra pain on Qualcomm.

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@Hammer

You should really read up on how Arm works. They want second sources, and third and fourth...

The whole Qualcomm / Arm lawsuit is essentially a squabble over royalty fees.
It's unusual for Arm to sue anyone, never mind one of their biggest customers, but I guess it is their bread and butter.

Arm do not and never have sold chips, they sell licenses. You can either buy one of their designs or the right to design your own, an architecture license.

There's no need for Qualcomm, AMD or anyone else to cleanroom design an Arm, an architecture license is not exactly cheap, but if you can afford to design an Arm v8 or v9 level processor, you can afford it.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@minator
Yes, the Qualcomm/Arm lawsuits are over licensing and royalties but I would not assume that Qualcomm is wrong. Qualcomm bought NUVIA believing they would be able to use the most advantageous of existing Qualcomm and NUVIA licenses and royalties but ARM wants to renegotiate the contracts. NUVIA never ceased to exist and the business was never split so it would take very specific language in the contract to be able to renegotiate the contract. ARM may be trying to remove suppliers of ARM based IP besides themselves to increase licensing and royalty revenues. It looks like ARM is trying to cut out the middle man and force customers to license directly from ARM and use all ARM IP. Apple maintained their ARM architectural license but agreed to renegotiate with ARM and payed ARM a large sum of cash. Qualcomm refused to renegotiate contracts with ARM and the NUVIA purchase was an attempt to reduce ARM royalties while ARM is trying to increase them. Qualcomm likely wants to continue to use their Adreno GPUs rather than license and pay royalties to ARM for their GPUs. The divide between Qualcomm and ARM is large.

ARM may have the better reputation but I don't like what they are trying to do to lock customers into ARM IP and reduce their choices. It's anti competitive and oppressive. Qualcomm has a worse reputation and a long history of lawsuits. They have even been accused of cheating on benchmarks in regard to the SoCs mentioned in this thread.

https://semiaccurate.com/2024/04/24/qualcomm-is-cheating-on-their-snapdragon-x-elite-pro-benchmarks/

@minator

Quote:

You should really read up on how Arm works. They want second sources, and third and fourth...

You should really read up on how X86's second source works.

Intel keeps the x86-64 extension because of the cross-license agreement, likewise AMD will get to use Intel’s extensions like SSE2, SSE3, SSE4, AVX, etc. Read Section 3 on the “GRANT OF RIGHTS�. From https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/2488/000119312509236705/dex102.htm

https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/anton-shilov/amd-clarifies-cross-license-with-intel-change-of-control-terminates-agreement-for-both/

Quote:

AMD and Intel have a cross-licensing agreement, which guarantees that the companies will not pursue litigation for any potential patent infringements. The agreement covers entire patent portfolio for both companies, which includes general-purpose processors, graphics adapters and other intellectual property. For example, AMD can design and sell microprocessors compatible with Intel’s x86 instruction set architecture and featuring a variety of extensions, whereas Intel can develop and ship central processing units that utilize IP and extensions initially created by AMD . The cross-licensing agreement has a number of terms and limitations. For example, the chip designers are not allowed to build processors that are compatible with competitor’s infrastructure (e.g., sockets, mainboards, etc.). Besides, if AMD and Intel change their ownership , the agreement terminated.

Equal partnership between AMD (second source) and Intel (first source). This agreement shields against any hostile takeover on either AMD or Intel via a poison pill.





---------------------------

ARM asserts changes to Qualcomm's existing ARM license. ARM admitted Nuvia's license had a higher royalty rate than the one for Qualcomm.

https://www.theregister.com/2022/11/16/arm_qualcomm_licensing_latest/
Quote:

Bombshell ARM also now claims that by continuing to use Nuvia's designs, Qualcomm would be producing "an unlicensed product" and would be "materially breaching" its own license with ARM. And if that's so, ARM could pull the rug out from under Qualcomm, terminate that license, and ban it completely from using ARM designs – and Qualcomm's Snapdragon series relies on those ARM Cortex CPU cores. Qualcomm, meanwhile, asserted that the fine print of the licenses involved did not actually require Qualcomm to ask for permission to absorb Nuvia's tech anyway.

ARM's license is not based on equal partnership when ARM has primary control. This is why RISC-V is an insurance.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 05:43 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 05:39 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 05:38 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 05:33 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 05:28 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 05:23 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 05:14 AM.

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@matthey

Quote:

Yes, the Qualcomm/Arm lawsuits are over licensing and royalties but I would not assume that Qualcomm is wrong. Qualcomm bought NUVIA believing they would be able to use the most advantageous of existing Qualcomm and NUVIA licenses and royalties but ARM wants to renegotiate the contracts.

My understanding is Nuvia would have got a server license which requires higher royalties, however Qualcomm want to apply their existing license which Arm are disputing.

Quote:

ARM may be trying to remove suppliers of ARM based IP besides themselves to increase licensing and royalty revenues. It looks like ARM is trying to cut out the middle man and force customers to license directly from ARM and use all ARM IP.

Arm make money from their own cores or Arm cores from other companies so it won't make much, if any, more money. It'd also violate their own agreements.

It's better for Arm for other companies doing Arm ISA designs, the perfect example is Apple. Arm was designing CPUs for phones and servers, not desktops, the chip makers weren't asking for desktop CPUs so Arm didn't design any. By putting their designs in desktops Apple opened up an entirely new market and now Arm is doing higher end CPUs.

They do compete with other companies' designs, but their best bet is to build better IP, Arm releases new CPUs every year and that difficult for anyone other than the biggest to keep up with that. It's very, very, expensive to design CPUs so unless you have a huge market it's cheaper to just use an Arm design. Arm can do it because the number of Arm CPUs shipped is in the tens of billions per year.

Quote:

Apple maintained their ARM architectural license but agreed to renegotiate with ARM and payed ARM a large sum of cash.

Why do you say this?

Quote:

Qualcomm has a worse reputation and a long history of lawsuits. They have even been accused of cheating on benchmarks in regard to the SoCs mentioned in this thread. https://semiaccurate.com/2024/04/24/qualcomm-is-cheating-on-their-snapdragon-x-elite-pro-benchmarks/

The independent benchmarkers are pretty much finding Qualcomm was right.
The CPU is same level as M2 Pro/Max levels but the GPU is pretty weak.

Some tests can show erratic results, some things are emulated and they haven't had time to optimise things yet so that's to be expected. There are also different variants of the chips available and there are some very confusing power settings in Windows that can mess things up.

Other than that, they seem pretty good for general PC laptops.



@Hammer

Quote:

Intel keeps the x86-64 extension because of the cross-license agreement,

I knew that, you were the one talking about clean room stuff.

Quote:

This agreement shields against any hostile takeover on either AMD or Intel via a poison pill.

I don't know the details, but Arm has something similar.

Quote:

ARM's license is not based on equal partnership when ARM has primary control. This is why RISC-V is an insurance.

Competition is a good thing.

_________________
Whyzzat?

Overall I think this could be bad news for Intel and possibly to a lesser degree, AMD.

If noting else a new competitor gives the OEMs leverage over Intel/AMD forcing them to lower their pricing.

It also opens door for other Arm vendors. Nvidia and AMD are planning something, you can bet Samsung and Mediatek will follow. Then there's a whole set of smaller vendors who do phone chips that'll want to join in, AMLogic, Allwinner, Rockchip etc.

This will force prices down and that's where it could really hurt Intel, and x86 in general.

I don't think the top end PCs will be challenged immediately but that could change. There already Arm based server chips from Nvidia and Ampere, Also, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft use Arm designs internally, all they need to do is move downwards.

OTOH Intel could also do well here, they have split into design and fab divisions so they could be making some of these chips. There are already rumours they'll be fabbing Nvidia's chip.

If noting else, it's going to get interesting.

_________________
Whyzzat?

IMO ARM is shooting themeselves in the foot (heh) with this lawsuit, as it’s not only a waste of money and resources, but also because it sends a clear message to potential customers to perhaps evaluate other options.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@minator

Quote:

Overall I think this could be bad news for Intel and possibly to a lesser degree, AMD. If noting else a new competitor gives the OEMs leverage over Intel/AMD forcing them to lower their pricing.

AMD is already at lower prices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVz7oGGG2jE

Cyberpunk 2077 720p SteamDeck Present, No Upscaling

Ryzen 8840U, 25 watts TDP, Radeon 780M, = 53.9 fps

Intel 155H 25 watts TDP, ARC graphics = 30.5 fps

Snapdragon X Elite 38 watts, Adreno GPU = 30.4 fps

Snapdragon X Elite 19 watts, Adreno GPU = 28.9 fps

Ryzen 8840U, 10 watts TDP, Radeon 780M, = 24.9 fps

Intel 155H 15 watts TDP, ARC graphics = 20.1 fps


--------------

Horizon Zero Dawn 920p Favor Performance

Ryzen 8840U, 20 watts TDP, Radeon 780M, = 91.2 fps

Ryzen 8840U, 15 watts TDP, Radeon 780M, = 79.9 fps

Snapdragon X Elite 38 watts, Adreno GPU = 49.7 fps

Snapdragon X Elite 23 watts, Adreno GPU = 36.5 fps

Intel 155H 25 watts TDP, ARC graphics =35.9 fps

Intel 155H 15 watts TDP, ARC graphics = 27.5 fps

--------------
The Callisto Protocol 720p TAA low settings

Ryzen 8840U, 20 watts TDP, Radeon 780M, = 58 fps

Ryzen 8840U, 15 watts TDP, Radeon 780M, = 50.2 fps

Snapdragon X Elite 34 watts, Adreno GPU = 29.2 fps

Snapdragon X Elite 24 watts, Adreno GPU = 26.2fps

Intel 155H 25 watts TDP, ARC graphics = Not shown

Intel 155H 15 watts TDP, ARC graphics = Not shown

_________________
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@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: @minator Yes, the Qualcomm/Arm lawsuits are over licensing and royalties but I would not assume that Qualcomm is wrong. Qualcomm bought NUVIA believing they would be able to use the most advantageous of existing Qualcomm and NUVIA licenses and royalties but ARM wants to renegotiate the contracts. NUVIA never ceased to exist and the business was never split so it would take very specific language in the contract to be able to renegotiate the contract. ARM may be trying to remove suppliers of ARM based IP besides themselves to increase licensing and royalty revenues. It looks like ARM is trying to cut out the middle man and force customers to license directly from ARM and use all ARM IP.

ARM's behavior changed under Softbank's ownership.

Quote:

matthey wrote: Apple maintained their ARM architectural license but agreed to renegotiate with ARM and payed ARM a large sum of cash. Qualcomm refused to renegotiate contracts with ARM and the NUVIA purchase was an attempt to reduce ARM royalties while ARM is trying to increase them. Qualcomm likely wants to continue to use their Adreno GPUs rather than license and pay royalties to ARM for their GPUs. The divide between Qualcomm and ARM is large.

From https://www.semianalysis.com/p/arm-changes-business-model-oem-partners

Quote:

According to the updated Qualcomm counterclaim, after 2024, Arm is no longer going to license their CPUs to semiconductor companies such as Qualcomm under technology license agreements (TLAs). Instead, Arm will only license to the device-makers. Arm is allegedly telling OEMs that the only way to get Arm-based chips will be to accept Arm’s new licensing terms. Qualcomm claims that Arm is lying to Qualcomm’s OEM partners about Qualcomm’s licensing terms. Furthermore, Qualcomm claims that Arm is telling the OEMs that semiconductor manufacturers will not be able to provide other elements of their Arm-based SOCs that Arm also offers as a licensed product. This includes GPUs, NPUs, and ISP. It seems that Arm is effectively bundling its other IP with the CPU IP in a take-it-or-leave-it model. That would mean Samsung’s licensing deal with AMD for GPU or Mediatek with Imagination GPU is no longer allowed after 2024. Furthermore none of these firms could use their in-house ISP or NPU despite it being far superior to Arm's. If true, it seems Arm is playing very dirty with their threats to Qualcomm and OEMs. Mediatek, Samsung, and other Arm partners should be very scared. This is going to accelerate RISC-V roadmaps rapidly. It also reeks of anti-competitive behavior. Nvidia has a 20-year Arm license secured, so they will be fine. Apple obviously has great licensing terms due to their history with founding Arm. We hear Broadcom also has very favorable terms as well.

Excerpt from Qualcomm’s counterclaim:

Quote:

Since filing the Complaint in this case on August 31, 2022, ARM has persistently and wrongfully attempted to disrupt Qualcomm’s business and customer relationships by spreading misinformation about the nature of Qualcomm’s ARM licenses to customers that purchase Qualcomm’s ARM-compatible cores and chipsets. ARM has engaged in this misinformation campaign directly through its leadership and through the leadership of its owner, SoftBank, acting on ARM’s behalf, in an attempt to damage Qualcomm, disparage its products, disrupt Qualcomm’s relationships with its customers, and create uncertainty where there is none. At least as early as October 2022, ARM falsely stated to one or more of Qualcomm’s longstanding original equipment manufacturer (“OEM�) customers that unless they accept a new direct license from ARM on which they pay royalties based on the sales of the OEM’s products, they will be unable to obtain ARM-compliant chips from 2025 forward. ARM has also threatened at least one OEM that, if the OEM does not do so, ARM will go on to license the OEM’s large competitors instead—the implication being that the OEM would be excluded from the market and could not obtain any ARM-compliant chips from Qualcomm or any other supplier, including “off-the-shelf� chips from ARM under a TLA. ARM has done this despite already having approached the OEM’s competitors with a direct licensing offer, while acting as if ARM would only approach the competing OEMs if the threatened OEM declined the license in the first instance. ARM also told one or more Qualcomm customers that, when the existing TLA agreements expire, ARM will cease licensing CPUs to all semiconductor companies—including Qualcomm—under an ARM TLA. ARM claimed that it is changing its business model and will only provide licenses to the device-makers themselves. ARM has explained to the OEMs that a direct OEM license will be the only way for device-makers to get access to ARM-compliant chips. ARM is trying to coerce such customers into accepting its direct license by falsely asserting that Qualcomm will not be able to provide them with ARM-compliant chips beginning in 2025 because Qualcomm’s ARM license agreements terminate in 2024, that ARM will not extend its licenses with Qualcomm, and that ARM will not allow Qualcomm to ship products from 2025 forward. These statements are unequivocally false and are intended to harm Qualcomm’s relationships with its customers—and to secure lucrative contracts with those customers for ARM—by calling into question Qualcomm’s ability to maintain its ARM licenses beyond 2024 and provide products to its customers, despite Qualcomm having a clear right to do so for years to come under its ARM licenses. Qualcomm is licensed for several years past 2025 under its ALA, which provides Qualcomm with the unilateral right to extend the contract past the initial term for several more years. Specifically, the ALA states:

---------------------
Mediatek established agreements with NVIDIA. e.g.
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/mediatek-adopts-nvidia-tech-for-automotive-ai-and-chips-1.1926275 (May 2023)

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/nvidia-and-mediatek-are-reportedly-co-designing-snapdragon-x-elite-competitor (May 2024)

Nvidia has a 20-year Arm license secured.

Broadcom is related to Raspberry Pi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8TEJtQRhw
"I Am Altering the Deal, Pray I Don’t Alter It Any Further." - Vader as Softbank's ARM.



https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/finance/arm-adds-architectural-licensee-2015-04/
Date: April 2015.
Quote:

ARM has seven publicly announced 64-bit architectural licensees: Applied Micro, Broadcom, Cavium, Apple, Huawei, Nvidia, AMD, and Samsung.

Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jun-2024 at 06:10 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jun-2024 at 05:57 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jun-2024 at 05:56 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

From https://www.semianalysis.com/p/arm-changes-business-model-oem-partners Quote: ....Furthermore, Qualcomm claims that Arm is telling the OEMs that semiconductor manufacturers will not be able to provide other elements of their Arm-based SOCs that Arm also offers as a licensed product. This includes GPUs, NPUs, and ISP. It seems that Arm is effectively bundling its other IP with the CPU IP in a take-it-or-leave-it model.

This is flat out illegal and anti-competitive. Arm would get sued into oblivion by the other IP vendors if they did this, and that's not happening.

I find Qualcomm's claims rather less than convincing.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@Myself

Quote:

I don't think the top end PCs will be challenged immediately.

I'll take this back. All Qualcomm need to do is double (or more) the cores then bolt on a DDR controller and a bigger PCIe bus and they'll have a fast desktop chip.

I don't know if they'll do it anytime soon, but they could.

Apple almost have done this with the M3 Max, it's not right at the top but it's in the ball park ...and that's in a laptop!

_________________
Whyzzat?

@minator

Quote:

minator wrote: @Hammer Quote: From https://www.semianalysis.com/p/arm-changes-business-model-oem-partners Quote: ....Furthermore, Qualcomm claims that Arm is telling the OEMs that semiconductor manufacturers will not be able to provide other elements of their Arm-based SOCs that Arm also offers as a licensed product. This includes GPUs, NPUs, and ISP. It seems that Arm is effectively bundling its other IP with the CPU IP in a take-it-or-leave-it model. This is flat out illegal and anti-competitive. Arm would get sued into oblivion by the other IP vendors if they did this, and that's not happening. I find Qualcomm's claims rather less than convincing.

Qualcomm has to provide evidence i.e. show correspondence between ARM and Qualcomm's customer.

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@minator

Quote:

minator wrote: @Myself Quote: I don't think the top end PCs will be challenged immediately. I'll take this back. All Qualcomm need to do is double (or more) the cores then bolt on a DDR controller and a bigger PCIe bus and they'll have a fast desktop chip. I don't know if they'll do it anytime soon, but they could. Apple almost have done this with the M3 Max, it's not right at the top but it's in the ball park ...and that's in a laptop!

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-M3-Max-16-Core-Processor-Benchmarks-and-Specs.781712.0.html
Cinebench 2024 - Cinebench 2024 CPU Multi Core (higher is better)

Apple M3 Max 16-Core (16-inch laptop) = 1,572

Intel Core i9-14900HX (laptop) = 1,634

AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX3D (laptop) = 1,772



https://www.notebookchat.com/index.php?topic=200125.0
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/tN4tCIZVQjXywTr4v3qYbQ

AMD Ryzen AI 9 HX 370 "Strix Point" (replacing AMD's "Hawk Point" APU) = 1525
This is for GDP's small 13.3 inch laptop.

----
Blender - Blender 3.3 Classroom CPU (lower is better)

AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX (laptop) = 146.8 seconds

Apple M3 Max 16-Core =195 seconds


----------------------
For raytracing, M3 Max still lost to NVIDIA's 3rd tier AD104 powered PC laptop.

https://www.cgdirector.com/cinebench-2024-scores/
Cinebench 2024 hardware acceleration scores
Nvidia RTX 4080 [Laptop] = 17780 (AD104 based)
Nvidia RTX 4090 [Laptop] = 25939 (AD103 based, RTX 4080 on desktop)
Apple M3 Max (40-Core) = 12980 ($3,999.00)
Apple M3 Max (30-Core) = 10313 ($3,499.00)


1st tier AD102 e.g. RTX 4090.
2nd tier AD103 e.g. RTX 4090 laptop, RTX 4080, RTX 4080 Super and RTX 4070 Ti Super
3rd tier AD104 e.g. RTX 4070 Ti, RTX 4070
4th tier AD106 e.g. RTX 4060 Ti.

For performance vs cost, PC has superiority.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2024 at 04:52 AM.

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@minator

Quote:

minator wrote: @Myself Quote: I don't think the top end PCs will be challenged immediately. I'll take this back. All Qualcomm need to do is double (or more) the cores then bolt on a DDR controller and a bigger PCIe bus and they'll have a fast desktop chip. I don't know if they'll do it anytime soon, but they could. Apple almost have done this with the M3 Max, it's not right at the top but it's in the ball park ...and that's in a laptop!

Apple M3 Max 16-Core has 91 watts power consumption which is a wall power use case.

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@Hammer

I was talking about the CPU not GPU, and I haven't done raytracing in over 30 years.

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Apple M3 Max (40-Core) = 12980 ($3,999.00) Apple M3 Max (30-Core) = 10313 ($3,499.00)

Heh! I wish, I'm in Europe, it's quite a bit more here.
Then you've got Apple's extortionate pricing for memory and SSD upgrades.
Oh, and if you want the *really* big memory upgrade, you can only get it with the 40 (GPU) Core version.

I have the M3 Max with 128GB RAM, my bank account has just about recovered.
I got an external M.2 SSD, 1/4 of the price Apple wanted.


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For performance vs cost, PC has superiority.

Every time I use Windows and (especially) Word I am reminded why I use Macs!

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Apple M3 Max 16-Core has 91 watts power consumption which is a wall power use case.

When maxing out both the CPU and GPU yes - which you can do on battery.

PC laptops wont even attempt to run flat out on battery, unsurprisingly given they take so much more power.


However...

Price up a PC to run a local 85GB Ai model, GPU accelerated.
It must also be quiet (music production) run cool (I'm in the south of France, it gets hot here), and low power (electricity is expensive).

The Mac can run the model acceptably fast in low power mode, without the fan switching on.

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Whyzzat?