@MagicSN

Quote:

Also a reason why there is no standalone PiStorm.

There is however Emu68 on standalone Raspberry Pi.

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@Hammer

Quote:

the wrong Commodore subsidiary to continue the Amiga

Which subsidiary would have been the right one? Surely not the UK one?

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @Hammer Quote: FYI, this is currently being worked on i.e. FPGA AGA with PiStorm support. I prefer FPGA SAGA with PiStorm32. Beggars can't be choosers! :P

AGA clone would need PiStorm32's 32-bit interface. The original PiStorm has a 16-bit interface.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@MagicSN

Quote:

MagicSN wrote: PiStorm is similar to what back then PowerUP Boards did with PPC, only this time with ARM. The part where PiStorm is inferior to the concept of PowerUP Boards is that it is not possible to run native ARM code on it, while for PowerUP Boards you could run native PPC Code (no matter if you chose PowerUP or WarpOS they both had/have this possibility).

For new builds that expand the platform's install base, PowerUP boards were costly due to paying for two "fat" CPUs e.g.
PowerPC 603e + 68040 (or 68060),
PowerPC 604e + 68040 (or 68060).

PowerUP boards would be okay for existing 68040/68060 owners since their existing fat 68K CPU can be recycled.

For PowerUP's 1997 release, new builds on other platforms are single CPU payments for each desktop computer unit i.e.
PowerPC 603e or
PowerPC 604e or
Pentium (P54) or
Pentium (P55) MMX or
Pentium II.

Multi-CPU slots/sockets are not included in the mainstream desktop computer market.

PowerUP board's market potential is limited by install bases of A1200 and A3000/A4000 which is about 600,000 units. By 1997, the bulk of A1200 gamers would have shifted to gaming PCs or 3D game consoles.

Another problem is that the "PowerUP" board is a single source from Phase 5 while PiStorm has multiple clones and Emu68 is open-sourced.

The PC clones have distribution model superiority over a single-source platform vendor.

The weakness of PiStorm is with single-sourced Raspberry Pi SBC since its particular GPIO behavior wasn't 100 percent cloned by wannabe Pi clones. Raspberry Pi has tighter control over its licensed manufacturers.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/raspberry-pi-manufacturer-rs-group-ends-license-after-a-decade
RS Group tried negotiating for supply and failed.

Raspberry Pi's other licensed manufacturers Element14 and Sony (UK) are still active.

The PC has the proper "second source" that is independent of each other.

Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jul-2024 at 04:11 AM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Hammer Quote: the wrong Commodore subsidiary to continue the Amiga Which subsidiary would have been the right one? Surely not the UK one?

Commodore UK had the strongest AGA sales.

AGA Amiga install base
Germany:
Amiga 1200 = 95,500
Amiga CD32 = 25,000
Amiga 4000/030 = 7,500
Amiga 4000/040 = 3,800
Sub-total: 131,800

Reference: https://web.archive.org/web/20230726021525/http://www.bambi-amiga.co.uk/amigahistory/sales.html

There are another 20,000 A1200s via Escom.


UK:
Amiga 1200 (Oct - Dec 1992) = 44,000 (Amiga Format May 1993)
Amiga 1200 (Jan - Aug 1993) = 100,000 (Amiga Format September 1993)
Amiga 1200 (Xmas 1993) = 160,000 (Amiga Format 56 Feb 1994)
Amiga CD32 (Xmas 1993) = 70,000 (Amiga Format 56 Feb 1994)
Sub-total: 374,000

AGA install base from Amiga's strongest markets: 505,800.

For Amiga 2200 clone (based on CD32), https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=19
65,000 CD32 motherboards assigned to Amitech's Amiga 2200. Commodore Canada supported Amitech's A2200 clone. 65,000 CD32 motherboards were locked up by creditors.

Potential AGA install base: 590,800 units.

Some posters have claimed 100,000 CD32s were locked up in the Philippines warehouse.

Commodore UK understands Amiga's mass target audience which is a step above the game consoles.

Commodore International's last quarter had an $8.2 million loss before its owners pulled the plug.

Commodore International was close to breaking even.

Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jul-2024 at 04:26 AM.

_________________
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Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Hammer

In UK there was just one thing on their mind at the time - the A1200CD, because games!!!11

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Hammer In UK there was just one thing on their mind at the time - the A1200CD, because games!!!11

To be fair, PCs of the time were getting CD-ROM drives too, and not just for games. I got a CD-ROM drive to access PD stuff like Fred Fish, Aminet, Infomagic Source Code, and the Amiga developer disc. "Fish and More Volume 1" was released in1990. And yes, I still have those discs!

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: @Hammer Hindsight is 20/20…. Using that hindsight it is clear that AT“s 1st mistake was reproducing outdated AA Amigas

Not sure that was a mistake. I had no trouble selling all the AT A1200s that I ordered, even at a higher price. In 1996 there was still a vibrant Amiga community which they could have cultivated. Instead they designed that horrible 'Walker". What we they thinking?

@bhabbott

Well, there already were CD drives one could attach to A1200, but that wasn’t enough - the CD1200 (or whatever it was called) had to have akiko and CD32 compatibility. Because games!!111

_________________
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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: Commodore UK had the strongest AGA sales.

C= UK managed to funnel the most HW through their system. Slight but important difference.

Well actually totally unimportant as it would no matter whether Mr Pleasance was qualified to MAGA (that 1st A clearly always stood for Amiga, what else would make sense).

C= UK had no HW development.
C= UK had no SW development.
C= UK had no manufacturing.
DP (ermmmm) had no contacts to the overseas production.
DP lacked the funds to even get his bid registered.
DP's "plan" was just the same as ESCOM's only without any of the above.

So he would have been the best if you wanted to make sure that Amiga died so fast and hard that there would have been no space for all the GateWay and Amino drame.

Last edited by Kronos on 19-Jul-2024 at 08:50 PM.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: UK: Amiga 1200 (Oct - Dec 1992) = 44,000 (Amiga Format May 1993) Amiga 1200 (Jan - Aug 1993) = 100,000 (Amiga Format September 1993) Amiga 1200 (Xmas 1993) = 160,000 (Amiga Format 56 Feb 1994)

I'm pretty sure those are running numbers not to be added up.

If you follow your own web.archive link you will see 144k A1200 worldwide till Aug 93 which is plausible as C= made about 230k before the stopped production later that year. Which btw also explains C= almost breaking even, thats what happens when you fire everyone and stop paying your bills while selling of remaining stock.

ESCOM made another 200k A1200 some of wich were collecting dust in warehouses and shipping container well into the 21st century.

Those 65000 CD32 mobo also sound more like an urban myth and/or someone trying to cook the books of a failing company.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@kolla

CD1200's adapter board includes a 68030 socket, CD32 ROM extension, Lattice FPGA, Akiko, and a SIMM slot.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: @Hammer I'm pretty sure those are running numbers not to be added up. If you follow your own web.archive link you will see 144k A1200 worldwide till Aug 93 which is plausible as C= made about 230k before the stopped production later that year. Which btw also explains C= almost breaking even, thats what happens when you fire everyone and stop paying your bills while selling of remaining stock. ESCOM made another 200k A1200 some of wich were collecting dust in warehouses and shipping container well into the 21st century. Those 65000 CD32 mobo also sound more like an urban myth and/or someone trying to cook the books of a failing company.

https://ibb.co/Lz8Xnt5
170,000 A1200 and 70,000 CD32 sales from Amiga Format 56 Feb 1994.

Quote:

From - Amiga Format 56 Feb 1994. "The A1200 now sits in the homes of 170,000 more people than it did last September" "If we tell you that the Amiga 1200 sold in excess of 160,000 units and the Amiga CD32 has found its way into over 70,000 UK homes by now,"

Amiga Format 56's information would have covered the Xmas Q4 1993 sales.

65,000 CD32 for Amitech's A2200 clone claim is from
https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=19


If AGA sales numbers are treated as worldwide
44,000 (the UK has 30,000 during its launch)
100,000 (AF50, Sep1993)
170,000 (AF56, Feb1994)
70,000 (CD32 in the UK)
25,000 (CD32 in Germany)
7,500 (Germany's A4000/030)
3,800
Total: 420,300 AGA units

Germany has 131,300 AGA units. 289,000 AGA units are outside of Germany.


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Quote:

From Petro Tyschtschenko, we have sold our first 20,000 Amigas 1200 in Europe. These were not only sold to our distributors and dealers, all of them went over the shelves to the end-users. Our Backlog is still 60,000. SCALA purchased 1000 Amiga 4000 Towers My understanding is that Newtek will be following with another 1000 units for the Video Toaster market. https://www.cucug.org/amiga/aminews/1995/at951106.html

You're still looking at more than 500,000 AGA units.

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_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @kolla CD1200's adapter board includes a 68030 socket, CD32 ROM extension, Lattice FPGA, Akiko, and a SIMM slot.

Akiko and CD32 rom sure, simm socket yes, but no 68030 socket no… that was just a proposed idea (one of many) for a later version, the UK “magz� were just full of speculations. To me it seemed dumb - why not just add an A1200 upgrade to the CD32, which would have been a heck less complicated!

Anyways… because games!!!!111

_________________
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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Hammer Akiko and CD32 rom sure, simm socket yes, but no 68030 socket no… that was just a proposed idea (one of many) for a later version, the UK “magz� were just full of speculations. To me it seemed dumb - why not just add an A1200 upgrade to the CD32, which would have been a heck less complicated! Anyways… because games!!!!111

3DFX Voodoo 1's and Direct3D's existence are due to games.

During the DirectX6 era, mainstream 3D accelerators are geared toward games while 3D workstation vendors like 3DLabs and SGI are in their workstation "safe space" market.

NVIDIA Quadro was 1st released in the year 2000 via NV10GL which is recycled from the 1999 released gamer's GeForce 256 (NV10).

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Hammer

None of those numbers can be confirmed but atleast you tuned somewhat down from the pure fantasy I was replying to.

C= UK are specially suspect as they include plenty HW that 1st booked by DP before being distributed on the continent.

When you are dealing with someone fudging the numbers in such a way there is simple no number that can be trusted.

What I do remember is that A1200 availability was only o.k. in the summer of 93, so every big 92 or XMAS 93 number has to be taken with a dump truck of salt. 94 numbers should be close to 0 as the little remaining stock would have been at dealers not the defunct C= subsidiaries.

So the truth is that even in 92/93 the demand for a somewhat upgraded but still low end A500 replacement was far to low for a viable gaming platform and that C= be so broke(n) that they couldn't meet that low demand only made that fact harder to see.

Ergo, building anything based on AGA in 95 or later was a fools errand.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: @Hammer None of those numbers can be confirmed but atleast you tuned somewhat down from the pure fantasy I was replying to.

A4000 sales numbers are missing from the US, Canada, and UK.

If Germany's 11,300 A4000 unit numbers are applied for the US, Canada, and UK, that's an extra 33,900 units.

In September 1994, Commodore Germany announced bankruptcy due to a lack of products.

In February 1995, Commodore France went into liquidation. https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Commodore

In early 1995, Commodore BV (Netherlands) was dissolved.

In August 1995, Commodore UK went into liquidation.

-------
In July 1996, Escom declared bankruptcy.


------------


Quote:

C= UK are specially suspect as they include plenty HW that 1st booked by DP before being distributed on the continent. When you are dealing with someone fudging the numbers in such a way there is simple no number that can be trusted. What I do remember is that A1200 availability was only o.k. in the summer of 93, so every big 92 or XMAS 93 number has to be taken with a dump truck of salt. 94 numbers should be close to 0 as the little remaining stock would have been at dealers not the defunct C= subsidiaries.

Commodore UK purchased it's Amiga stock and continued to trade until August 30, 1995.

Reminder, Apple's 1994 PowerMac world wide sales are in the 1.2 million units by the end of 1994.

Amiga's best years has 1 million annual unit sales that are mostly in the lower cost A500 models.

44,000 A1200 launch units are a drop in the bucket.

Quote:

Ergo, building anything based on AGA in 95 or later was a fools errand.

As part of SVGA, fast VGA being produced in PC world.

1995 Star Wars Dark Forces run in VGA mode.

NTSC/PAL TV standards has imposed it's limitation on game consoles like PS1.

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_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: If Germany's 11,300 A4000 unit numbers are applied for the US, Canada, and UK, that's an extra 33,900 units.

And you still wonder why I consider all your numbers suspect?

Quote:

Commodore UK purchased it's Amiga stock and continued to trade until August 30, 1995.

Trading what in what volume?

All the mini C= only closed shop when there wasn't enough sellable assets to pay their bills (which got lower and lower with every empty warehouse closed and with every employee made "redundant").

At some point 1 palette of C64 or a stack of office supplies may have been enough to keep that 1 light on for another month.

C= UK staying longer on can mean 2 things:
- DP had a bigger pile of hard to sell crap than anybody else.
- DP did have the good stuff (read AGA Amigas) but failed to sell them in early 94 when they were considered unobtainium.

None of this makes classic Amiga HW viable post 94.
None of this suggest that DP was capable of more then being mediocre middle management with a talent for making his own numbers good.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @kolla Quote: kolla wrote: @Hammer Akiko and CD32 rom sure, simm socket yes, but no 68030 socket no… that was just a proposed idea (one of many) for a later version, the UK “magz� were just full of speculations. To me it seemed dumb - why not just add an A1200 upgrade to the CD32, which would have been a heck less complicated! Anyways… because games!!!!111 3DFX Voodoo 1's and Direct3D's existence are due to games. During the DirectX6 era, mainstream 3D accelerators are geared toward games while 3D workstation vendors like 3DLabs and SGI are in their workstation "safe space" market. NVIDIA Quadro was 1st released in the year 2000 via NV10GL which is recycled from the 1999 released gamer's GeForce 256 (NV10).

And what’s your point with all this? That CBM UK would have…. ? This is UK we speak of, it’s “retro� by default, also when it comes to gaming, the “because games� I speak of aren’t new exciting games based on new exciting technologies, but same old Amiga games only with a touch of akiko. Woopdeedoo!

_________________
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kolla Quote:

CD1200 Akiko and CD32 rom sure, simm socket yes, but no 68030 socket no… that was just a proposed idea (one of many) for a later version, the UK “magz� were just full of speculations. To me it seemed dumb - why not just add an A1200 upgrade to the CD32, which would have been a heck less complicated!

The Big Book of Amiga Hardware mentions the plan for a 68030 socket and Beth Richard contributed to the page.

https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=1604 Quote:

The CD1200-Plug in card for Amiga 1200 included the Akiko chip, and an FPGA to control Akiko, control a Memory SIMM, and processor expansion socket for a Motorola 68030. An external CD unit based on the Amiga CD32 was connected via a cable with expansion capabilities for FMV. In an article in Amiga Format issue 59, it is clearly stated that the interface card, which plugged in to the A1200 trapdoor, was fitted with a SIMM socket. So basically the intention must have been to combine the CD-ROM interface with the possibility of adding fast RAM and a faster CPU providing a upgrade ladder suitable to your wallet. Beth Richard was lead engineer at Commodore on that project in the Fall of 1993 and Winter of 1994. Only 9 of them were made. The A1200 card had an Akiko on it from the CD32. It had the logic to drive the CD drive - the same one from the CD32. That meant it also had the corner turn memory. But the rest of the functions in Akiko were wasted, since the A1200 already had Gayle, Budgie and the 2 CIAs. A CPLD was programmed to interface Akiko to the Zorro bus and also to convince Akiko that it was in the CD32 motherboard and behaving as if it was just doing its usual job. If Commodore had had the budget, a new ASIC would have been built, with just the CD32 drive logic and corner turn memory coupled with the interface logic, which would have made room for a 68030 socket. The whole point was to show that Commodore engineering was healthy and had roadmap into the future, not just at the high end with Acutiator that Dave was working on, but also at the consumer end with taking the CD32 capabilities to the A1200. There were still rumors of interested buyers as late as Feb 1994. We were hoping that these kinds of projects would encourage a buyer. All Akiko did was to put 4 chips that normally take up space on a motherboard (2 Bridge chips like Gayle and Budgie, and 2 8520 CIAs), and put them in a single chip along with logic to run the CD (modified from the CD Drive logic in the CDTV-CR) and the corner-turn “chunky to planar� memory, which was a new idea to help with porting PC and Mac software to the Amiga.

A healthy CBM would have created an ASIC for maybe a few hundred thousand CD1200 units to make the 68030 slot fit? Why didn't CBM think about increasing Amiga value with CPU slots, SIMM sockets, CD-ROM drives and chip/integration upgrades before they were toast?