Amiga is splittered up into a couple of strands now, and what the Natami would be doing is taking the classic 68K line, and enhancing it with new and updated hardware following the design of the custom chip Amigas of old.

AOS, MorphOS and AROS people won't quit using their dedicated NG systems for a Natami anyway (well, most of them), and the lovers of the classic line get something new to play with.

Nothing wrong with that...

Last edited by steril606 on 20-Jul-2009 at 08:21 AM.

The Natami is designed to run the real 68k AMIGA OS and classic AMIGA software highly efficiently.
In this regard the NATAMI will have no problem outrunning any PPC or x86 systems having to emulate all the Blitter/Copper/Sprites/ and the 68K CPU!


The NATAMI is not designed to outrun todays Wintel boxes in raw performance.


If you wonder if the NATAMI@100MHz could outrun a 1GHz AMIGAOne then don't just look at the clockrate - look at the bootlenecks.
What is the memory throughput of the 1GHz AMIGAOne?
Its about 200-250 MB/s!
Could the NATAMI beat this? Yes of course


If you wonder if SDL games could run faster on the NATAMI than on a RADEON 9xxx card - then think about what the bootlenecks are.
Where is the bottleneck of many SDL games?
Its the memoy interface to the GFX Card.
What is the memory throughput of the Pegasos or AMIGAOne to its GFX Cards?
Is certainly less than 100MB/sec.
Can the NATAMI beat this. Yes of course.



The Natami is not competing with OS4 and PPC systems.
And the goal of the NATAMI is not to outrun them.
And it would be silly to expect this from a much lower clocked system.
Nevertheless there will be a few games and applications which will run faster the much lower clocked Natami than on a 1GHz AMIGAOne just because of the differen system design and the faster memory on the Natami.


The Natami is designed to run 68K software efficiently - and this it will certainly do.

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@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

The Natami will be faster per clock cycle than OS 4 since it doesn't have nor support an MMU except in the developer version which will come with the overclocked 68060 as a diagnostic tool. for running MuGuardianAngel and Enforcer and the like.

Pure IPC alone doesn't result in a faster machine.

_________________
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I think the title of this thread is a bit misleading.
- The NATAMI does not negate anything.
- The NATAMI does add is another choice, another good option for AMIGA OS.

Like some people like holidays at the ocean and other people prever the mountains the NATAMI and the PPC systems are two options - Both are valid and neither does one negate the other.




For a classic AMIGA developers, the NATAMI will of course make a big difference.

Classic AMIGA development was very challenging nowadays as classic systems were not only limited by clockrate but also limited by memory performance and throughput the GFX card. Natami does address all these limits and brings the classic AMIGA a major perfromance improvement.

This makes development for 68K and porting of applications to 68K much more sensible now.

That Natami will outrun any classic AMIGA system and run AMIGA OS 3.X at high speed is nice for many people - But I think there is something much more important to the NATAMI.

The NATAMI gives a small hope for a return of the AMIGA in the future.

For the first time in history since the invention of the AMIGA 1000 - the AMIGA developers now own the development of AMIGA HW again.

The 68050 softcore does give 68K development a new horizont and a live time perspective.

Today the Natami is a few times faster then classic AMIGA are but this is not the end - because we own the HW_Design now is will get more powerful.

FPGAs are getting more powerful all the time.
Every year new much more powerful FPGA come out.

With faster FPGAs future NATAMI versions will reach high performance levels - and at some point future 68K-NATAMI/AMIGA systems will outrun even todays G4 PPC systems on raw performance level.


To me this option is what really counts.

_________________
APOLLO the new 68K : www.apollo-core.com

@BigGun

Where's the Natami prototype? This stinks of Vapourware! What the hell is emulated output from software circuitboard designs? Unless I see it in silicon I'm dubious!

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Al4

680x0 rocks! AmigaOS3.x rules


@xispo

Perhaps it may be a good idea to design the gfx core in a way that accepts higher resolutions than 1920x1080. AGA+Indivision already offers 1280x1024 pixels, I don't think that asking FullHD resolutions for *future* prototypes is something crazy. Anyway I would prefer that developer versions were out so some coders could try it out regardless of supporting FullHD resolutions or not.

Last edited by Crumb on 20-Jul-2009 at 01:00 PM.

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@Gunnar (BigGun) v. Böhm
Quote:

BigGun wrote: The Natami is designed to run the real 68k AMIGA OS and classic AMIGA software highly efficiently.

Please start with something 'simple'.
A Natami 680030/50 MHz (FPU ?), with (fast) AGA GFX and build in 8 or 16 bit modes with resolutions up to 1024 x 768, fast mem up to 256MB.

With a fast memory access for CPU and Blitter, FlickerFixer, good written drivers ( P96 ), IDE (SATA ?), USB and classic Paula for Audio and PS2 ( USB ? ) Mouse+Keyboard it would outperform most existing Amigas ( even the 060 types ) on games and it would be a useful product to replace dying Classic-Amiga ( even without SCSI, ZII/ZIII or PCI ) .

This might be possible in the time of the next 8-12 month. I have my doubts you will ever finish your Über-Amiga. I bet you planned a lot of things, that will be useless for Classic applications.

If you finished the Amiga Replacement hardware, you can still plan your next version that will be available in 3 years ....

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

Quote:

BigD wrote: @BigGun Where's the Natami prototype? ... Unless I see it in silicon I'm dubious!

The Natami prototype was showcased at the AMIGA gathering in Germany/Karlsruhe last year.

If you would have been there you would have seen it with you own eyes -
just like about 200 Amiga fans did.

You would have seen the NATAMI prototype running AMIGA OS 3 Workbench, AMIGA applications, games and demos ....
And you would have even seen us doing some live demo coding.


Cheers

_________________
APOLLO the new 68K : www.apollo-core.com

@Arko

Quote:

Arko wrote: Please start with something 'simple'. A Natami 680030/50 MHz (FPU ?), with (fast) AGA GFX and build in 8 or 16 bit modes with resolutions up to 1024 x 768, fast mem up to 256MB.

Did you not see the 68060 CPU card picture on the NATAMi side?
We have tons of 68060 CPU cards produced already for the NATAMI release.


Asking now for a slow 030 would be quite a step back, wouldn't it?


Cheers

_________________
APOLLO the new 68K : www.apollo-core.com

@BigGun

Quote:

Did you not see the 68060 CPU card picture on the NATAMi side?

No ! There was just an empty board, no CPU on it.

http://www.natami.net/gfx/NAe60R_1_vga.jpg
http://www.natami.net/gfx/NatamiCPUcard.jpg

Quote:

We have tons of 68060 CPU cards produced already for the NATAMI release.

Great if they really work and if your 68060 library is ready and and and ...

Quote:

Asking now for a slow 030 would be quite a step back, wouldn't it?

But I'm not here to argue, I was just begging for somthing real.
A working 68030 would be a great success compared to an not working 68060 board

Last edited by Arko on 20-Jul-2009 at 03:20 PM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

What's the point of doing all this work on a 3D engine?

I can understand a generic DSP / OpenCL / Vector Math unit, that could make some demos very funky. But it's adding a massively complex feature to a system that should really in its first incarnation be about creating a new classic Amiga.

I'd personally rather see unlimited and unrestricted 2D sprites and unlimited 2D display planes of any depth (for parallax) (also think Amiga screens with alpha-transparency). I'd rather see 16 sound channels. I.e., it's an Amiga, it's an Amiga on steroids, it's an uber-Amiga, but it's definitely a classic Amiga in spirit.

Oh well, I guess the 3D hardware could finally get us a 3D floor in StreetFighter II...

@BigGun

Quote:

BigGun wrote: @Arko Quote: Arko wrote: Please start with something 'simple'. A Natami 680030/50 MHz (FPU ?), with (fast) AGA GFX and build in 8 or 16 bit modes with resolutions up to 1024 x 768, fast mem up to 256MB. Did you not see the 68060 CPU card picture on the NATAMi side? We have tons of 68060 CPU cards produced already for the NATAMI release. Asking now for a slow 030 would be quite a step back, wouldn't it? Cheers

As I said in my earlier post, even an 030 coupled with an improved AGA with modern memory and chipspeeds would leave a 'classic' 060 for dust in most respects. My AGA 1200 with a 030 @ 50Mhz is not actually far removed from a 16-bit OCS machine

I agree with Arko, keep it simple....there's more chance it will get released that way


You can always go for a MK2 with some softcore 070 or whatever at a later date but I think you'd have more trouble selling the thing.

Anyway, best of luck to you and your fellow team members

Last edited by NovaCoder on 21-Jul-2009 at 04:44 AM.
Last edited by NovaCoder on 20-Jul-2009 at 11:34 PM.
Last edited by NovaCoder on 20-Jul-2009 at 11:32 PM.

@Al4

I don't thing there's any negating going on, particularly regardin gOS4.x. They're different product lines goin in different directions.

Natami is a new hardware for a static OS. I dont\'t see much advancement of the 3.x line these days.

OS4.x is an updating OS for completely different hardware.

There's community overlap, but I see myself far more interested in OS4.x than in OS3.x today.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@Al4

I smell a BoXeR repeat on this one.

I'll believe it when I see it, but like so many others who just can't accept an untimely demise of the original Amiga life, I'll check the websites, keep an eyeball out for Elvis and occasionally look in the night sky for UFO's.

Keep the faith for justice's sake I suppose.

_________________
If you're going through hell, keep going. -Winston Churchill

@debrun

Quote:

debrun wrote: @Al4 I smell a BoXeR repeat on this one. I'll believe it when I see it, but like so many others who just can't accept an untimely demise of the original Amiga life, I'll check the websites, keep an eyeball out for Elvis and occasionally look in the night sky for UFO's. Keep the faith for justice's sake I suppose.

The BoXeR was a commercial undertaking that ran out of money. The Natami, on the other hand, is done for fun by a group of guys in their spare time. No idea how long it's going to take them, but I see no reason why they would fail. If anything, there's no pre-order scheme that people could lose money on.

Hans

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@BigGun

What hardware are those 3D demos running on? The Commodore-one based prototype?

It would be interesting to see those demos running in a video.

Hans

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Join the Kea Campus - upgrade your skills; support my work; enjoy the Amiga corner.
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Hi,

Some people seem to think a 68030 CPU card is simpler than a 68060 CPU card.

This is only the case for an old AMIGA (e.g. A1200) as the old AMIGA mainboard did provide a 030 Bus interface already.
If you start with a new design (like the Natami) then this is not the case.


For a new design its much more clever to create a 68060 CPU card out of several reasons.
- 68060 is a syncronous but the 68030 was asyncronous.
Todays memory is syncronous too - its easier to make an all syncronoius design then a mixed one.
- 68060 is ten times faster. This is good reason IMHO.

_________________
APOLLO the new 68K : www.apollo-core.com

Quote:

Arko wrote: @BigGun Quote: Did you not see the 68060 CPU card picture on the NATAMi side? No ! There was just an empty board, no CPU on it.

If you want to see the fully assembled CPU card
or some debugger output running on it then look here:
http://www.natami.net/hardware.htm



Cheers

_________________
APOLLO the new 68K : www.apollo-core.com

@BigGun

Notice the "Natami" logo stamped directly on one of the boards... the one with the fat 060 on it :)

Should say the "Commodore Natami" :)

Q!

"i am home"

@BigGun

Wooha... Now we start "talking business"...

Good job guys... Looks Cool...