@tonyw

Interesting... If it's not, I can't imagine it's that big a deal to modify the board for anyone brave enough... I'd be up for it if I had access to the board schematics!

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Quote:

on amiga an application wouldnt decide to randomly start writing stuff to disk. this was an advantage of the system and it should be kept like that. there are enough systems doing it this way to choose from.

Oh really ? There's no applicaition with auto save on the Amiga ? Your email app won't automatically check for and download emails now and then ?

Come on...

So you mean you check every opened app and close it by hand before powering off your computer ? What if you have multiple screens opened ? You switch to each and every one to check your apps ?

This is the operating system's role, not yours. You should not have to worry about that kind of stuff. This is anti-intuitive. And not the Amiga way if you ask me...

It's not about being lazy, it's about not being stupid. There's no way you can be sure any app isn't being writing something in the background. And even though this may be less likely to happen on the Amiga, this can happen too. This should be an automatized process and the user shouldn't have to worry about it.

It's not about being Amiga way, lazy way, windows way, it's just the logical way. I don't understand why people still argue about that...

Last edited by Leo on 22-May-2013 at 01:03 PM.

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

I'd love to see sleep mode + wake on LAN

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@edponpon

The only reason I'd love to see a shutdown feature would be if it comes with WAKE-ON-LAN. On fact right now I am abroad and I would love to be able to turn on my A1-XE and use it with VNC.

@Panthro

Quote:

Panthro wrote: I'd love to see sleep mode + wake on LAN

The wake on LAN feature would have a very limited interest until we get a descent remote access ability (no the current AmiVNC from OS4depot is not one, I bet the only way we could acheive high speed is to go the Denis Pach's AVNC way by implementing the vnc server as a Picasso monitor, this could have many advantages the first one being that you can log on without disturbing the current user, and a Picasso monitor should have much more information about what needs to be updated or not).

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AOS 4.1 : I dream it, Hyperion did it !
Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
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@Chain-Q

Quote:

I find it ironic (and a bit sad), that in 2013 some amigans still stuck at the problem that software shutdown is necessary or not. In fact ,software shutdown is just the first, but required step towards giving the OS more control over the hardware and the hardware's power management. The next steps would be sleep mode, hibernation, and all those advanced features any serious system will need in the future (actually, the future is now...), and I think no one would argue about they're necessary or not. Still disagree? Well, think about going mobile or running from a battery and reconsider...

With more powerful video cards that are found in many Sam460s and X1000s it would be great to see power saving features enabled whilst the cards aren't being stressed by the software.

@Leo

Quote:

Oh really ? There's no applicaition with auto save on the Amiga ? Your email app won't automatically check for and download emails now and then ?

actually not.

Quote:

So you mean you check every opened app and close it by hand before powering off your computer ?

you know, this is my habit even on my pc, since if i let the machine handle it by itself it will certainly get stuck at something waiting forever for my input, precisely like an unsaved document or even an application it cannot close. you cant just issue shut down procedure to your pc and go away, alas.

Quote:

This is the operating system's role, not yours. You should not have to worry about that kind of stuff. This is anti-intuitive. And not the Amiga way if you ask me..

amiga was never exactly intuitive, and it is what i like about her. also neither on genuine amiga nor in any of the ng camps is anything as intuitive and working as flawlessly as on windows as of today.

Quote:

It's not about being lazy, it's about not being stupid.

didnt say anything like that.

Quote:

There's no way you can be sure any app isn't being writing something in the background.

as long as there is no problem (and i see no problem currently) i wouldnt worry about. as i said i have not had data loss due to power off on amiga, only due to deliberately self destructing filesystems like sfs, which is more of a concern.

@all

Thanks for the replies. Seems this is still in the works or still up for debate. I do have a SAM FLEX 460 (AKA - AmigaOne 500). So I'm thinking that the hardware is there, as mentioned, to do the shutdown. As for some other comments and concerns for the need for shutdown, I'll add something even more to that -

- Shut down/Sleep, is a modern feature, whether you consider it lazy or not, and should be included in a future Amiga OS. . . up to you to use it or not though
- Auto OS update, like other modern OSs; Windows, Mac and Linux, should happen without the user having to search a website, log on and request the update - it just happens
- Many of the programs we use - Productivity, Work related and a few others I'm overlooking at the moment, should have an auto-save feature which you can tweek. That is also a standard on many modern OSs and Programs nowadays.

We can still have our way to do things in the Amiga, but I would love to see some of the old ways disappear. Time to modern up a bit. Hyperion did a great job with modernizing the OS. Keep it going, by adding many of the standards other OSs have, but at the same time, keeping it true to Amiga. Just my opinion, but if we all voice our concerns I'm sure we'll start seeing things we've hoped for. Thanks again.

Ed

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@Rob

Quote:

With more powerful video cards that are found in many Sam460s and X1000s it would be great to see power saving features enabled whilst the cards aren't being stressed by the software.

why even worry about power saving features when the cards are working (almost) in a framebuffer mode anyway. not putting such an oversized and mostly unsupported card into your computer is a proper power saving.

Last edited by wawa on 22-May-2013 at 05:18 PM.

@wawa

Quote:

those so called modern features are mostly needed because the so called modern computers need ages to boot (or even to shoot down while what they may handg on something).

My father just bought new laptop with Windows 8 and it seems it can boot and power off almost instantly.

Quote:

the only thing one could need is save state of the system to recover on the next session, but this is another story.

It could be useful if your laptop is running out of battery.

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Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@thread

These debates usually get confused and heated because shutdown and power off get used interchangeably and THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

Shutdown -> Go through a process of automatically closing down applications and services, dismounting drive etc etc depending on the needs of your OS.

Power Off -> switch the machine off no more no less.

A power off command that could be used in scripts or just to save reaching for the power button would be acceptable to pretty much any amiga user, no matter what their feelings about shutdown sequences.

@Leo

One of the reasons people are so anti shutdown I think is that Windows abuses it, to not just switch off the computer but start installing updates etc etc, which can result in quite a delay, and many people don;t like to leave the machine alone whilst it switches off.

@Severin

I agree, users should take responsibility for their own data saving and not rely on the OS, if you throw a bill on the floor, you don;t expect the vacuum cleaner to file and pay it for you!

Last edited by broadblues on 22-May-2013 at 05:29 PM.

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BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@itix

Quote:

My father just bought new laptop with Windows 8 and it seems it can boot and power off almost instantly.

yes, perhaps, but this hardware can only be utilized on aros of all amigalike oses, and aros already supports the functionality in question.
Quote:

t could be useful if your laptop is running out of battery.

see above, otherwise it may have some relevance with morphos on mac portables, but where else?

@wawa

funny enough it seems i just trashed my ssd partitions while swapping it between uae and real machine. so, hell, i deserve it! not sure though if poweroff button would save me. ;)

@Boot_WB

Quote:

Boot_WB wrote: I'd be very surprised if shutdown under linux on these machines requires pressing the power button.

Software shutdown even on my X1000 under Linux (Debian Squeeze) also requires pressing the power button; it does stop the disks etc, but then asks me to turn off the power myself. It is only under OS4 that I have the option to shutdown and turn off the X1000 completely from a command.

Best regards,

Niels

I´m with Andy here...

Confusing shutdown with power off initiated by software isnt very useful in discussions. A software-initiated power-off could be useful, if a machine is working without human supervision. A shutdown process for AmigaOS isnt very useful at all.

Yes, there ARE programs that could fail by an instant power-off (SimpleMail mail index does, for example, but at least it is rebuilt at next program start), but this is due to bad programming style. No software should keep vital data within main memory only. A shutdown process couldnt ensure data integrity in all cases, regardless which OS is actually used.

Simply imagine any OS shutting down "hard" by a PSU failure. Any vital data kept in main memory is lost, regardless how "safe" the shutdown process is. The shutdown process wouldnt run at all.

Ever wondered why "productivity software" for OSses with a "robust" shutdown process offer "auto save" features?

P.S.: Wasnt there some post or mail from an ACube related developer, talking about modifications to the onboard FPGA that would enable a software power-off for the SAM440ep? I vaguely remember such thing...

P.P.S.: This one I remembered

Last edited by whose on 23-May-2013 at 12:43 AM.
Last edited by whose on 23-May-2013 at 12:28 AM.
Last edited by whose on 23-May-2013 at 12:24 AM.

@whose

I think we don't wont shutdown.

* It requires user input to save documents you and shutdown is often not completed, if you walk away.

What I think people really want is hibernation, this where the RAM is saved, and restored when you start the computer again.

* You don't need to close the programs.
* You don't need to open programs are restored to sate where it was, before hibernation.

An other mode that is sleep, this when you clock down CPU, and other components to save electricity, the work is not saved, this mode really popular on laptops.

* Sleep has tendency to not work so well, often the computer does not wake up.

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@tonyw

It is possible to shutdown (power-off) Sam460 from UBoot command line..

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AmigaOS4 Beta-Tester
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Amiga X5000 8GB Radeon RX 560
Amiga A1222 2GB Radeon RX 550
Sam 460 2GB RadeonRX 550

Gosh! Computing devices already took the "always on, unless battery dies" way, with bigger systems automatically saving on drive memory status just before this happens, and you old geeks are STILL and AGAIN biting each others for the "software shutdown" feature? Please grow and evolve yourself. I can turn off any computer I want with the power button (I can even unplug it from the AC network), being it a Linux or Windows one (I just risk to loose something, exactly as I've ALWAYS risked to loose something when I did the same with the Amiga), the difference with the software shutdown is that I can TELL the OS and all running applications what I am about to do, and let 'em close/react nicely, reducing the risk to 0.

This feature can be used to SCHEDULE shutdown if a operation requires more time than the one I can stay near my computer, not to tell I can even put the poweroff task at the end of a script. It's a damn good feature for any OS (present, past or future) and can be extremely useful for many, many reasons. Moreover, when turning in the new century I got more and more accustomed to telle the OS "please shut down yourself" with a menu item or with a command, rather than pushing the power button, and I could go away while the computer performed the opration. Why the hell should I stay in front of my computer, when it's closing apps and powering down? Why should you? Because Windows 95 and sometimes XP didn't power off well? 95 and XP are obsolete. Now the procedure is OK. Always.

And what I can read here? Always the same rants from old-age luddists that never change their habits, even when the new ones are BETTER, and just PRETEND anyone should think and do the same because, obviously, their habit is the only right one. I am waiting for AROS having full ACPI support to let me close it with the shutdown command, exactly as like as I can already do for the M68K verision to close UAE, and I can't really realize why AmigaOS4 doesn't yet have this ability and people are still so against of it. Really.

@broadblues

Quote:

A power off command that could be used in scripts or just to save reaching for the power button would be acceptable to pretty much any amiga user, no matter what their feelings about shutdown sequences.

This is something I intend to work on. Software power off should at least be possible on the Sam460, A1-X1000 and Pegasos 2 machines.

FWIW I just put together a simple sam460off tool and it scared the shit out of me when I ran it and the computer immediately shut down as soon as I pressed the RETURN key (obviously I'd forgotten that this was what it was supposed to do ).

@salass00

Can you share that sam460off tool that you have written ?

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AmigaOS4 Beta-Tester
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Amiga X5000 8GB Radeon RX 560
Amiga A1222 2GB Radeon RX 550
Sam 460 2GB RadeonRX 550