@SpaceDruid
Quote:

I'd rather rely on my new (to me) 1974 sports car to take me to London without breaking down, than an Xbox 360 to let me drive across Liberty City in a taxi.

Owning a 1969 Triumph Spitfire I can assure you that the 360 is way more reliable then any 1970s British sports car.

Quote:

I've just bought a PS2 with a shedload of games for less than the cheapest of 360's and I know its going to be reliable as well

Possibly. My first PS2 died before 1 year which is less then the 2 year death of my 360. My understanding is the earlier versions were a bit more prone to issues. Though later versions each have a different list of game incompatibilities. But, in general you're probabaly right.

@MikeB
Quote:

Either you didn't carefully read what I have written or you don't understand what I have written. As that's not what I have been saying.

Well then I don't get your thought. Developers can take advantage of the HDD. Developers can cache content. Developers have provided gaming experience that's better due to the HDD. Developers can easily do a quick check. The larger MMorph style games can require a HDD so there is already some mitagation there. Really I see the few developers as whiners. The other 95+% are prefectly happy with what they have.
(Of course the side arguement can be made that the PS3 depends upon caching due to Blu-Ray seek timing issues.)

Quote:

If it would Sony would never have been able to reach up to a 140 million console sales like the console will.

Of course it reached up to that many sales because people's first one's died and they had to replace it.


@Hammer
Quote:

NVidia Geforce 8x and 9x's Fold@Home GPU2(beta) PPD numbers Killed both Radeon HD and CELL in PPD

Thanks? Doing a search on the thread for the soon to be released 4870 and the search on the site couldn't find anything with those #s?

Differences between US and European gamers.

http://www.forbes.com/technology/2008/06/18/games-europe-loves-tech-innovationeu08-cx_mji_0618games.html

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou The slimline PS2 is a very reliable console. The PS2 never suffered from reliability issues to the extend the 360 is providing consumers with. If it would Sony would never have been able to reach up to a 140 million console sales like the console will.

LOL...

Mike we've been down this road before.
I know multiple people who had to buy multiple PS2's... Why do you think they've sold 140M consoles? By your analogy, the PS2 has the world's worst tie-ratio...

Also, the PS2 is becoming less compatible with itself over time...
They are notorious for breaking just after the warranty expires, and cheap enough to justify purchasing another one when it does...

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: @Lou Quote: ...do more research... Hey if it does break, I'll just buy another, It only cost 25 quid.

And that's why they've sold 130+M...

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: Here on Amigaworld is has been often stated that the MGS4 cutscenes are pre-rendered. Here some interesting footage of a briefing cutscene: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0RFMEyegr5U You can see you can use the robot to move around in the cutscene, looking at the briefing from different angles. That's of course not possible in a pre-rendered FMV.

Some are, some aren't. The 90 minute closing sequence is as I believe the other 90 minute sequence is. What you are referring to are ingame out-takes/scripted sequences, where you don't have control but can alter the camera angle...
One of the complaints of the game is that after the first 1/3 is over, there's very little gameplay...

Don't some DVD's have options to view some scenes at a different angle?

@BrianK

Quote:

Owning a 1969 Triumph Spitfire I can assure you that the 360 is way more reliable then any 1970s British sports car.

Aye nothing is more unreliable than a British sports car of any age (I own or have owned more of them than I'd like to mention in public) which was kinda my point about the repuation of the 360.

The PS2 that I bought is second hand and comes with the owners entire collection of games (around 30 of them) which was too good a deal to pass up really considering the price being much less than I could get if I decided to sell the games individualy on ebay.

Its a local chap so I can kick his head in if the deal turns sour. AFAIK, I don't live close enough to kick the heads in of the owners of Microsoft or Sony if my PS3 or 360 turns sour.

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@BrianK

Quote:

Well then I don't get your thought.

Let's take my 060/68000 example. You could run Quake on a 060, but it's impossible for the game to run on a 68000. Let's call this situation 1.

You can make a game which runs on a 68000 and take advantage of the 060 if present. For example more enemies onscreen. Let's call this situation 2.

Situation 1 and situation 2 aren't the same. Similarly having a harddrive as default available for caching is not the same as having an optional harddrive in a console. Knowing every console has a harddrive you can be more ambitious.

Quote:

PS3 depends upon caching due to Blu-Ray seek timing issues

Like referenced earlier within this thread seektimes are better for Blu-Ray. Putting 6.8 GB like what a 360 DVD9 can store on a Blu-Ray disc seektimes are better. Only if you would put way more data on a Blu-Ray disc, a full disc sweep by the lens can result in worse worst case scenarios. For example reading data at the outer edge of the disc then switch to data reading from the innver tracks, moving back to the outer tracks, etc. Of course with clever data placing this shouldn't happen.

Last edited by MikeB on 19-Jun-2008 at 08:40 PM.

@Lou

Quote:

Some are, some aren't.

Can you provide a reliable source?

Anyway gamespot states the realtime cutscenes look as good as any pre-rendered cutscenes from previous games:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw8hIkhqISI

MSG3 helped move some PS3 units last week in Japan:

PS3 - 75,311
PSP - 64,675
Wii - 45,564
Nintendo DS - 39,201
PlayStation 2 - 7,297
Xbox 360 - 2,163

01. Metal Gear Solid 4 (PS3) - 465,000 / NEW
02. Mario Kart Wii (Wii) - 38,000 / 1,444,000
03. Wii Fit (Wii) - 37,000 / 2,227,000
04. Jikkyou Powerful Pro Baseball Portable 3 (PSP) - 27,000 / 187,000
05. Monster Hunter Portable 2nd G (PSP) - 26,000 / 2,203,000
06. Hisshou Pachinko*Pachi-Slot Kouryaku Series DS Vol. 2: CR Neon Genesis Evangelion - ####o, Futatabi (DS) - 22,000 / NEW
07. Dragon Ball Z Burst Limit (PS3) - 18,000 / 111,000
08. DS Bimoji Training (DS) - 17,000 / 285,000
09. DS Yamamura Misa Suspense: Maiko Kogiku - Kisha Katherine - Sougiya Isa Akashi - Koto ni Maru Hana Sanrin: Kyoto Satujin Jinken File (DS) - 17,000 / 56,000
10. Fushigi no Dungeon - Furai no Shiren 3: Karakuri Yashiki no Nemuri Hime (Wii) - 14,000 / 73,000

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Some are, some aren't. Can you provide a reliable source? Anyway gamespot states the realtime cutscenes look as good as any pre-rendered cutscenes from previous games: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw8hIkhqISI

OMG!

Read developer interviews and various reviews.
FYI, you tout cut-scenes using the in-game engine as a wonder of the PS3...
It's been done quite well on the Gamecube's Resident Evil 4.... Yes, the lowly Gamecube. On the PS2 version, they had to use CGI scenes because though it was release 10 months later, the PS2's visuals are not up to snuff.

I'll give you another thing to think about... In some scenes, it's an mpeg video overlaid onto an ingame screen...because that's how it's most easily done. Video has to be framed... That can apply the frame as a texture to a square polygon so it moves around, it's still video in some format...be it mpeg, avi, mjpg where the frames are loaded as texture maps then applied to a polygon(square)...

I believe when I originally linked about the 90 minute cgi scenes, that the article mentioned that the game uses a mix of one, the other or both mixed together as I just listed about.

Let me give you some more insight...
Take the screen dragging/moving feature in OS4 that was added in a patch. This is possible because the workbench screen is one (insert screen resolution) texture apply to an appropriately sized polygon that matches the resolution of the screen. An application that uses it's own (lower) resolution is applied to let's say a 320x256 screen as a texture, which then gets applied to a polygon of the same size. The gpu then gets told to stretch the polygon to the native resolution of the monitor and have it sit under the polygon containing the Workbench screen. Then the user can "drag" the Workbench screen down and see the underlying polygon which is the "screen" of the other application. The same could be done to overlay Workbench on streaming live video... In MSG4's case, the video get's overlayed ontop on an in-game display device vs. underneath your Workbench icons...

Using this same techique, the mouse pointer is another object/set of polygons or even texture which sits above the workbench screen and this way, the mouse pointer can maintain it's hi-res look (native to the monitor's display) regardless of which (possibly lower) screen resolution the application is using.

@Lou

Quote:

Read developer interviews and various reviews.

I did. Kojima talked only about realtime cutscenes. Please provide a link or something (no rumour mill please).

Quote:

FYI, you tout cut-scenes using the in-game engine as a wonder of the PS3...

FYI = For your information... Does not compute...

I think early Metal Gear solid games used realtime cutscenes as well, so I don't understand what you are trying to say.

*Gamespot* says the realtime cutscenes are of equal quality compared to any other game's pre-rendered cutscenes. I haven't even played this game yet...

Last edited by MikeB on 20-Jun-2008 at 01:04 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Read developer interviews and various reviews. I did. Kojima talked only about realtime cutscenes. Please provide a link or something (no rumour mill please). Quote: FYI, you tout cut-scenes using the in-game engine as a wonder of the PS3... FYI = For your information... Does not compute...

That was about game-engine based cut-scenes...

Quote:

I think early Metal Gear solid games used realtime cutscenes as well, so I don't understand what you are trying to say.

I guess I should have added "high quality" to the term "in-game cutscenes" with regards to the PS2...

Quote:

*Gamespot* says the realtime cutscenes are of equal quality compared to any other game's pre-rendered cutscenes. I haven't even played this game yet...

ps,
http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=18183
Infact they wanted more room for video: http://kotaku.com/362807/kojima-says-blu+ray-disc-doesnt-have-enough-space
http://www.destructoid.com/metal-gear-solid-4-has-90-minute-cut-scenes-requires-a-4-6-gb-install-87227.phtml

@Lou

BTW, according to gamers the by far biggest cutscene is the ending which takes about 1 hour. You can skip the cutscenes (like in for example GTA IV), but according to reviewers that would be a shame as they are very good.

@MikeB and @Loud

We can argue if the cut scene is pre-rendered or rendered on the fly video. It doesn't matter to me. The FMV scene, even if you can walk around in it, isn't gameplay. Gameplay is why I buy games. If I want to watch a video then I'll buy a much lower cost and much better DVD. I know others are different and are happy to pay for FMV. Final Fantasy series is horrid at this. You have bad graphics while killing the boss then a pretty video of the bosses death. And of course it's the pretty video that Sony gaming companies show us on the TV ads. Certainly the PS3 will have gameplay and FMV closer then the PS2 but for me still really really annoying.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @MikeB and @Loud We can argue if the cut scene is pre-rendered or rendered on the fly video. It doesn't matter to me. The FMV scene, even if you can walk around in it, isn't gameplay. Gameplay is why I buy games. If I want to watch a video then I'll buy a much lower cost and much better DVD. I know others are different and are happy to pay for FMV. Final Fantasy series is horrid at this. You have bad graphics while killing the boss then a pretty video of the bosses death. And of course it's the pretty video that Sony gaming companies show us on the TV ads. Certainly the PS3 will have gameplay and FMV closer then the PS2 but for me still really really annoying.

A point I mentioned early on when I first broke the 90 minute cut-scene thingy...
I'm just trying to show Mike that MSG4 does use FMV. It would have used more if Kojima had his way because he is more of a story teller... He should just make movies or a TV series. The main complaint about MSG4 is that after the first 1/3 part of the game is over, there is indeed very little gameplay...it's cut-scene and then stealth to the next cut-scene...and yes, most use the ingame engine but there is alot of mixing in of lower-res FMV for ingame video devices...

FMV is FMV whether I'm skewing it or not. Those idividual pictures/frames are not made up of multiple polygons, but one with the frames applied as a texture to one quadrilateral polygon...

@Lou

Motion in a FMV -- so we get Dragon's Lair w/ prettier pictures? God I hated that game. It's all timing no mental creativity needed, no real gameplay IMO. MGS4 is NOT for me for the reasons of 90+ minutes of what I consider non-game crap. If others enjoy this stuff then good. That's why there are choices.

Edit: this is why one must read reviews beyond their simple rating. Sure MGS4 was given 10 out of 10 but if I won't like a majority of the experience it won't be a 10 for me.

Last edited by BrianK on 20-Jun-2008 at 04:19 PM.

@BrianK

I appreciate a good story and good acting, in fact I would rank its importance up there right behind gameplay. Achieving in-game cutscenes of quality compared to pre-rendered movies is IMO quite an accomplishment. IMO this shows potential with regard to the quality of gameplay as wel.

People are now arguing if Uncharted: Drake's Fortune or Metal Gear Solid 4 is the most technically impressive console game so far. I think Killzone 2 will put an end to that.

If you appreciate good story telling, potential advantages of realtime cutscenes:

- Seamless transition from gameplay to cutscene and from cutscene to gameplay.

- Dynamic changes like Ratchet suit changes during the game of Ratchet & Clank: Tools of destruction. Or when I dropped a nanoswarm just before entering a cutscene and have it rendered inside a realtime cutscene like I did with R&C: TOD.

- Cutscene interactivity, like being able to change camera views, or like here being able to use a robot to move around in the cutscene. Potentially developers could adjust a cutscene so that it affects what goes on within the cutscene.

-Another advantage of realtime cutscenes is that they can be designed to take less space on disc, you are using in-game assets for the graphics already on disc. Of course high quality audio will still take up a lot of storage.

I am interested in technology and how this can enhance games, if anyone can think of more advantages, please share your thoughts and ideas.

Last edited by MikeB on 20-Jun-2008 at 05:06 PM.

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

think I might get a 40GB. I don't need backward compatability since I never had a PS2 and its easy to stick in another HDD, and the noise level is unexpected since I was under the impression the 60GB version had more efficient smaller die chips than the older 40's. Any other major differences between the 40GB and the 60GB?

If you don't need BC then there's really no choice. The 40GB, being the newer model, has
got a newer board with a newer smaller rev of the Cell which needs less cooling thus is
quieter during use.
It does hower lack the memory card slots and two of the four USB connectors aswell as
the obvious smaller HDD. As you said, the HDD is easily replacable and two USB connectors
is something you can live with IMO, even though four would have been nice.
The memory card slot is useful for some but still not a major problem because you can still
get USB hubs and memory card readers externally quite cheap.

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@BrianK, Lou

Ok so now you're thrashing THE PS3 game of the year.. Why? Because it's good?
Or because it's not available on the platform of your choice?
I think what you guys are doing is low.. Real fanboy stuff.
I bet if this game came on your platform of choice you would defend it...

It has actually gotten GREAT reviews for it's gameplay ASWELL as the story and
cut scene's. You can skip the cut scenes and still enjoy the game?!

Last edited by Samwel on 21-Jun-2008 at 02:29 AM.

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@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: (SNIP) @Hammer Quote: NVidia Geforce 8x and 9x's Fold@Home GPU2(beta) PPD numbers Killed both Radeon HD and CELL in PPD Thanks? Doing a search on the thread for the soon to be released 4870 and the search on the site couldn't find anything with those #s?

My Geforce 8600M GT (with DDR3) scores ~930 PPD with 5 to 10 percent C2D T7500 (2.2Ghz) CPU usage, which is not bad for 22 watt math processor. Aero Glass was still running.

PS3's CELL scores ~900 PPD.

My Radeon HD 3780 scores ~1800 with 68 percent C2D E6850 (3Ghz) CPU usage.

Compared to AMD's CTM/CAL F@H client, CUDA2.0 F@H client off loads more it's math processing to the GPU.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2008 at 03:21 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2008 at 03:16 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2008 at 03:14 AM.

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