@MikeB

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Of course there have been many reviews, how many of those actually claimed poor collision detection? I am as good at headshots in Uncharted 1 as I am in Uncharted 2.

All due to sloppy collision detection.
More seriously - Your posts here on this thread read that the mainstream media is only biased to give good 360 reviews. But, when the good PS3 review occurrs then problem isn't the mainstream media but some independent reviewer doesn't know what they're talking about cuz they ranked it down. Do you understand how people see the fanboism in this approach?

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the PS3 is well on track...

Publically perhaps, companies always back their products. I'd argue they are not on track. First bit of evidence is about 6 months after the PS3 launch the creator, Ken Kutagari, was forced out of his position. If this was on track he'd have been promoted at best or at least be let keep his job. Second, Sony has had to remove features from the PS3, backward compatibility, to lower the costs and lower price to get into the race. Next, do you really think Sony wanted a tussle for #2 in the console wars? If so the lot of the Board and Management should be sacked. Lastly, it's bad business to lose all of your PS2 profits to make way for the PS3.


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Microsoft has been killing their PC games division in the process to try to counter this

That's simply bogus. The PC games division didn't turn a profit years. The 360 helped build the positive profits. The losses didn't come from countering the PS3. The losses came from (1) bad hardware and (2) Zune. And Q3 2010 was one of the highest profits at $165Million for the Entertainment division. 'Killing PC games division'? The division is one and the same. If anything they're taking less losses by removing the PC games.

Recently 2 heads of the Entertainment Division are out. Robbie Bach stays until his spot is transitioned. That'll be this fall. J Allard stays on as a consultant. IMO what we're seeing is a reading for the Next Generation. 2012, IMO, would be the earliest we'll see the 3rd Xbox. Microsoft typically hits the ball out of the park on their 3rd attempt. Watch out Sony better get friendly with Google.

@MikeB

You love your consoles don't you?

_________________
Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1230 MKIV 64MB & FPU, 4GB DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: If I am recounting what many reviewers have said, how am I trolling? Many? Of course there have been many reviews, how many of those actually claimed poor collision detection? I am as good at headshots in Uncharted 1 as I am in Uncharted 2.

There have been numerous complaints about head shots in multi-player not killing...
The game has been patched several times to fix issues...

Read all these, they cite issues....:
http://tigerweekly.com/print/12-02-2009/13193/uncharted-2-among-thieves-is-high-adventure
http://loshavros.co.uk/2009/10/31/uncharted-2-epic/
http://ps3.gamespy.com/playstation-3/naughty-dog-ps3-project/788742p2.html

Major one described here in detail:
http://boardsus.playstation.com/t5/Uncharted-Series-PS3/spoiler-Uncharted-2-bugs-issues-errors-naughty-dog-pls-rectify/m-p/44014488

As for reviews:

From the Wiki we get:
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Criticism of the game included some graphical issues, such as texture pop-in and screen tearing.[6][9] Of more concern were gameplay issues, including overall gameplay length being rather short, with reviewers completing the game in anywhere from six to ten hours,[48][50] and some disappointment with the "not particularly memorable" vehicle sections;[8] the inability to both aim weapons and drive the jet-ski was a well-noted issue.[3][48] Further, some "frustrating, repetitive slogs"[48] with regards to the "constant stream" of pirates and mercenaries,[6] and "moving from one infuriating firefight to the next"[10] towards the end of the game were cited as part of poorer elements of overall gameplay.

From the CNET review: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10367102-1.html
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The basic game mechanics haven't changed much from the original Uncharted; walk down a mostly linear path for a little while, keeping an eye out for clues or clambering over obstacles, then get involved in a firefight, requiring you to shoot back while crouching behind some crates. In the two years since the original game, the growing use of open-ended environments has made games more realistic; this feels more like a scripted amusement park ride. And many of these firefights go on for far too long, throwing wave after wave of generic foes at you in an effort to pad the running time. Also, stealth is seemingly a must-have feature for any serious modern action game (and a good idea for a guy in a T-shirt and jeans taking on an army of mercenaries), but it feels arbitrarily employed here--sometimes you're like a ninja, other times you'll get spotted through half a football field of dense foliage.

Let's not forget the freezing issues that required a fix when the game launched.

/yawn

@BrianK

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More seriously - Your posts here on this thread read that the mainstream media is only biased to give good 360 reviews. But, when the good PS3 review occurrs then problem isn't the mainstream media but some independent reviewer doesn't know what they're talking about cuz they ranked it down.

What are you talking about? Which reviews? I played the game, I can make up my own mind. I earned the platinum trophies for both Uncharted games, so I know what I am talking about.

@ Lou

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There have been numerous complaints about head shots in multi-player not killing... The game has been patched several times to fix issues...

The multi-player in Uncharted 2 is cool, unique and a great extra to keep the game interesting once you finish it, the main focuss of the game is however on the single player campaign. With the multi-player patched then what's your issue? For anyone who plays online getting the patch shouldn't be an issue. Maybe the review which you are talking about should be updated so people like you who haven't played the game don't get side-tracked.

For someone who doesn't play online (not connected to the internet), the multi-player patch isn't important. I myself first finished the single player campaign before trying the multi-player, so maybe the patch resulted into me experiencing no major issues online at all.

Understood?

@BrianK

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Ken Kutagari, was forced out of his position

And? Is Peter Moore still leading XBox?

I can imagine some Sony execs being shocked at the costs of producing the PS3. But for us consumers it's great as at only 499-599 dollars we got a product actually worth far more than it was sold at.

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backward compatibility, to lower the costs and lower price to get into the race

Any tech enthusiast knew those old PS2 legacy chips had to go to allow the PS3 to advance towards cheaper/smaller motherboards. I remember myself actually saying this at the time. I also think it's great they added this for early adopters so that the switch from PS2 to PS3 was more comfortable.

Even I, someone who never owned a PS2 in his life used this feature to play some older PS2 classics such as God of War 1 & 2, Ape Escape 2 & 3, Jak & Daxter, etc. But I am going to give away some of those games to a kid I know (don't think God of War would be appropriate though). Ape Escape for Playstation Move is coming out, so. I have played a part of ICO, but I haven't had the pleasure to play Shadow of the Colossus yet.

I think I'm not going to as a TeamICO remake of ICO/SOTC is rumoured (based on insider knowledge).

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Lastly, it's bad business to lose all of your PS2 profits to make way for the PS3.

I am not a shareholder so I don't really care about that. But from the grand perspective I can see the PS3 having been very important for Sony to quickly finish the Blu-Ray vs HD DVD wars, surely a market very profitable for Sony. Also the PS3 allows Sony to indirectly sell more consumer electronics such as surround audio sets and HDTVs, without the proper content there is less reason to upgrade.

Likewise the PS3 is pioneering stereoscopic 3D content for Sony, the PS3 will be capable of Blu-Ray 3D playback and a good console for providing stereoscopic 3D games. Again without the proper content there is less reason for consumers to upgrade to a 3DTV.

Had the PS3 been specced much weaker the future outlook would have been far weaker concerning Sony's long term consumer electronics plans. Sony needs to take the lead here as Microsoft and Nintendo aren't concerned about the advancement of consumer electronics as much.

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That's simply bogus

I wasn't talking about profits. I meant Halo is a popular (originally Mac before the takeover) PC franchise, Halo 3 was released exclusively for the XBox 360. Similar Alan Wake was already done by Remedy for the PC (many of the public screenshots were from the PC version and as they weren't 540p), but Microsoft cancelled that to the advantage of XBox 360 exclusivity.

There still is a PC gaming market, but Microsoft exclusively pushes the XBox. Gears of War is based on a multi-platform engine, it would make sense Gears of War 2 like Gears of War 1 would be released for the PC. Microsoft became even bigger through PC gaming, they now seem to sacrifice this to benefit the XBox. It hurt consumer choice, sad especially as many games including Halo is better suited for the platform they were originally intended for. But of course most PC gamers wouldn't be likely to pay Microsoft for playing games such as Halo online.

Destructoid has a nice interview regarding Killzone 3, some quotes:

Quote:

So you know, Killzone 3 will be coming out in 2011, so you're right in saying it's a much shorter development cycle. And wow, there was a lot of pressure on getting Killzone 2 out on time, after we released that initial concept video at E3 in 2005. This time around, the pressure is essentially bigger, because we're creating a much bigger game than Killzone 2 was and we're doing it in a much smaller development cycle. The reason we can do it is not only because we work very hard, but I think we've got a much more experienced development team right now; we can build on a very solid foundation. We've got a lot of great systems we're bringing forward. There's nothing really in Killzone 3 that's straight from Killzone 2, everything's been improved. You saw the demo today, those are actually Killzone 2 characters in there. We actually have already replaced them, just not in the demo we showed you today. But it's a great head start, and it doesn't really take away from the experience. They look great, but they're going to look a hell of a lot better once the final content's in there. So having that solid foundation, the team in place, the development process streamlined at the end, you know we really have hired, recruited up, trained up, we can move a lot faster.

MikeB's take: I remember discussing here on AmigaWorld with regard to the development time of Killzone 2 and Uncharted. Me stating Uncharted 2 and Killzone 3 would probably take less time to be developed as the developers can re-use and enhance much of their assets and technology for future sequels.

Such discussions are often quickly forgotten as they take years to be proven correct, just like when I stated I though a slimline PS3 would be launched in 2009 years before it was actually 2009. Well I'm here to say I told you so and the childish comments in those past discussions were uncalled for.

Regarding 3D:

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You know, we're trying to raise the bar, and that's what we love to do. We love taking the hardware and getting the maximum out of it. The PS3, something like 3D comes by, we jump on it. We love it. We think it's going to enhance the experience. I fully buy that, you know, it's the early adopters who are going to have the [3D-enabled] TV. As we go forward, you will see that televisions -- and you will be upgrading your TV at some point -- it's very likely that you'll purchase a TV that's 3D-enabled. Just like I'm sure if you recently bought a TV, it was HD-enabled. So, organically, people will go through that phase. At the same time, we're making sure that the people who don't have a 3D television get the full experience, the bread and butter of Killzone. It's still playable and viewable in HD televisions. So that's still the full experience.

That's a very similar perspective to what I wrote above!

Seems like a down to earth well balanced guy.

@A1200

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You love your consoles don't you?

I am more a tech enthusiast and gamer in general. The PS3 generation is very interesting:

- consoles are now fully online allowing for easy access to demos, updates and online multi-player
- we have moved from solistic gaming experiences on the PC behind a desk with keyboard and mouse towards the comfort of our living room with people using multiple wireless controllers for multi-playing
- gaming is moving from small SDTVs and monitors towards large screen HDTVs connected to surround audio sets
- console gamers are now creating large amounts of user create content like in LittleBigPlanet and Modnation racers

Those are some enormous steps in gaming and soon consoles will be able to playback stereoscopic 3D movies and play stereoscopic 3D games. Soon we will be able to use Playstation Move which will add many new possibilities.

These are all very exciting developments this generation, great for a tech enthusiast and gamer like me. Long before the PS3 launched I looked at the specs, gaming industry developments and realized such potential, hence my enthusiasm for the platform.

This not only regards the PS3, in the past I also wrote articles regarding 3G enabled mobile devices such as smartphones for the future. Just look at the iPhone and all it can already do today. I hope the PSP2 will come with 3G support.

Can you follow me on this?

Last edited by MikeB on 03-Jun-2010 at 12:13 AM.

@MikeB

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And? Is Peter Moore still leading XBox?

Do you really mean to imply that Peter Moore was forced out such as Ken Kutagari? Certainly 1/2Million salary, stock options, and a 2 year $1.5M bonus at EA had nothing to do with it. Look at the situation. Ken was removed from heading the divison and limited to a Board Member. Then as Sony announced Ken's retirement Ken cheered about his plans for the PS4, 5, and 6. I'm assuming Sony will announce the PS7 as their next console.

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Any tech enthusiast knew those old PS2 legacy chips had to go to allow the PS3 to advance towards cheaper/smaller motherboards.

It takes more then a tech enthusiast to make a platform. Talk to the marketing people and they'll explain why it's a bad idea to give no upgrade path for the #1 console and yet have advertised it.

I'd argue the PS2 emulation was mostly worthless selling point. See the first people that buy consoles are the Enthusiast crowd. They generally care less about backwards compatibility then the causal gamer. (Not saying they won't use it but they will buy without it.) The casual gamer has a dozen games for their PS2. If they want a new system the PS3 would have been an easy upgrade path. Now they have to toss it all if they want a new system. Or they stagnate on the old system, which is likely good for Sony as the PS3 would have cost them dearly had they accelerated the user base into the higher manufacturing costed consoles.

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Again without the proper content there is less reason for consumers to upgrade to a 3DTV.

Didn't you decry the 'forced' upgrades of Microsoft? Here's a clear double standard. Inconstencies where you allow one company to do it and another company to not do it is a reason people see your position as coming from fanboism.

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I am not a shareholder so I don't really care about that.

Even if not a shareholder you should care about profits. First, if you want a PS4 you want Sony around. Second, if you want a PS4 you need the PS3 to be profitable. See in order for the PS3 to be all the goodness and value you write about it did so by pillaging the PS2 profits. If the PS3 doesn't have profits to pillage will the PS4 get green lite? If the PS4 does will it be a comparable value to the PS3? Unlikely because now Sony would have to pillage profits in other lines, such as Blu-Ray. Profits are the reason companies are in business. I highly doubt Sony intends for their console to be a loss leader.

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It hurt consumer choice

I wouldn't agree with this. 2009 was the PC market was up 3% and more valuable market than any of the consoles. It appears your theory that Microsoft leaving hurts the market isn't true. The market grew in Microsoft's "absence". I'd venture because it's now easier for others to be competitive with one less Juggernaut to fight against.

@MikeB

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console gamers are now creating large amounts of user create content

Not only that there's lots of user created games on XNLA. Not to mention the Kudzu environment for younger programmers.

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hope the PSP2 will come with 3G support.

Sony should add a phone and come with 4G support. Nintendo has owned the mobile space. Sony's been the default #2. iPhone and WinPho7 are about to get their game on.

@BrianK

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Do you really mean to imply that Peter Moore was forced out such as Ken Kutagari?

You are pretending you know all the details surrounding Ken Kutagari?

Officially at the end of 2006 Kutaragi was promoted to chairman of SCEI, and retained chief executive officer of the group. In 2007 Kutaragi would retire and instead take up the role of Honorary Chairman and became CEO of a new company Cellius within which Sony has a majority stake, in addition he is working as a professor at Ritsumeikan University. You sound as if you know him as a close relative, knowing more about him than the data which is publically available and we have to feel sorry for him...

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Talk to the marketing people and they'll explain why it's a bad idea to give no upgrade path for the #1 console and yet have advertised it.

Likely the financial and marketing guys will tell you it was a golden decision from their perspective as well as from the perspective of the technical guys. BTW the PS2 outsold the XBox 360 last quarter, surely Sony is working on a PS2 emulator, but that's not an easy thing to do.

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Didn't you decry the 'forced' upgrades of Microsoft? Here's a clear double standard

There are no forced upgrades, current PS3 games even have good SDTV and stereo support. You don't seem to understand what being future proof means. It does not mean you release a HD console lacking a standard HDMI port, adding future support for 3DTVs is.

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First, if you want a PS4 you want Sony around.

Sony in terms of asset net worth is bigger than Microsoft. Don't worry so much.

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PS4 get green lite?

You seem to pretend you know what a PS4 means... Look at it this way, the PS3 may have paved the way for a PS4, this doesn't have to be a revolutionary step as within this generation, a PS4 can be a more evolutionary product if Sony does not want to invest too much into R&D.

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It appears your theory that Microsoft leaving hurts the market isn't true.

Of course my statement is 100% correct. Microsoft severly reducing their PC gaming publishing and killing PC gaming projects reduces consumer choice. It's a pretty simple logic actually.

PC gaming is still popular for Massively Multiplayer Online Games, consoles are yet to tap this market but it's in the works for the PS3.

Last edited by MikeB on 03-Jun-2010 at 08:03 AM.

@BrianK

Quote:

Not only that there's lots of user created games on XNLA. Not to mention the Kudzu environment for younger programmers.

Those people aren't developing their games on the consoles. It's not that different from what was already possible in the past like on the Amiga for example. You can transfer Blitz Basic and AMOS games to your CD32 games console, this even without paying Microsoft tax. Also don't forget if your game doesn't earn Microsoft enough money it can be delisted, the game must be exclusive to Microsoft and Microsoft can (and has) rejected good games on other grounds.

Jakub Dvorksy: “Microsoft just refused Machinarium for XBLA after a half year of talking with them. They like the game and know it would be very successful on their platform, but they don’t want to support games which aren’t Microsoft exclusives. Machinarium isn’t, since we’ve also released versions for Mac and Linux."

What is different is how people are now able to create levels in LittleBigPlanet and ModNation Racers and soon will be able to create games on their consoles without programming experience on their consoles with LittleBigPlanet 2, for free.

You are of course limiting yourself to specific solutions, so if you want to become a professional games progammer this is not the way to go.

Last edited by MikeB on 03-Jun-2010 at 08:32 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 03-Jun-2010 at 08:02 AM.

@MikeB

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Officially at the end of 2006 Kutaragi was promoted to chairman of SCEI

Offically at the end of 2006 Kutaragi was relieved of his position as chairman of the SCIA. Ken was fired Replaced by Kaz Hirai. His 'promotion' in spring 2007 was as a tech consultant to Sony and Honorary Chairman. I've been in enough Boards to understand that removing budgets, employees, and products from someone and inflating them to an Honorary Chair is a friendly firing. The message is we thank you for the past and don't see your direction as our future. As for 'feel sorry for him' -- I've said nothing in the way of how you or anyone should tie their emotions.

Quote:

BTW the PS2 outsold the XBox 360 last quarter, surely Sony is working on a PS2 emulator, but that's not an easy thing to do.

Good for the PS2 it's keeping Sony's gaming division afloat. Imagine the losses if you took the profit engine out of the Gaming Division? Yikes! The importance of an emulator has been lost as it's been 4 years. I don't think this is a high priority. IF Sony comes out with an emulator my bet is it's used to sell PS2 games online not to enable you to use PS2 DVDs on the current, or future, PS3 console.

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Look at it this way, the PS3 may have paved the way for a PS4, this doesn't have to be a revolutionary step as within this generation, a PS4 can be a more evolutionary product if Sony does not want to invest too much into R&D.

Look at it this way without PS3 returning PS2 profits and building it's own profits at most the PS4 is going to be evolutionary as a wise Board wouldn't approve sapping Billions in a 2nd attempt.

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Of course my statement is 100% correct. Microsoft severly reducing their PC gaming publishing and killing PC gaming projects reduces consumer choice. It's a pretty simple logic actually.

The problem is highlighted in your last line. Your thought is simple logic. Economic theory tells us that if monopolistic powers in markets sap comptiveness. If the marketed is owned by a big power it's much much less likely that a small company will try or be able to get into the market. Microsoft pulling out creates a vaccum. There's demand but reduced supply. In this environment many others come in to fill the gap. Thusly, choice is increased. And to the point the market grew without Microsoft. Growth is a positive sign.

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Those people aren't developing their games on the consoles.

Today people are able to create games on their Xbox360 without programming experience with Kodu for $5. As you said 'free' you mean 'free' after you've paid your $60 (though I think there was a price drop after launch) for LittleBigPlanet of course.

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You are of course limiting yourself to specific solution

No I'm not. I'm highlighting other methods which you neglected to include.

Last edited by BrianK on 03-Jun-2010 at 02:24 PM.

@BrianK

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Honorary Chair is a friendly firing

Alternatively you can keep an open mind, Kaz Hirai is a much more competent English languaged public speaker and Ken is still highly regarded amongst the Sony development teams. Maybe he did everything he could in that position. Ken Kutaragi is educated as an engineer, he held various different positions within Sony over the years.

@BrianK

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Kodu

Kodu is interesting, it reminds me somewhat of 3D construction kit for the ZX spectrum. Do you think you're going to buy a game based on this engine? Which is your favourite Kodu game?

@BrianK

BTW, can you create 2D shooters like you can with SEUCK by Sensible Software from 1987 in Kodu?

@MikeB

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Maybe he did everything he could in that position.

What I see here is clear evidence the PS3 launch didn't go as the Board would have expected else Kutagari would still be in place. Likely there's blame to go around. Losing billions in a Dept even if not fully Kutagari's fault being the head the board will demand removal. And again I see this as a friendly firing. Thanks for the past but we disagree with your vision of our future.

Kodu is interesting. As is any tool that encourages development and thereby deeper understanding of what's occuring. Personally, I don't have time for all the things out there. Kodu or user created Kodu is low on my priority. I do expect to get into it, or something like it, more in 2 years when my kid is ready to start programming. Kodu can create shooters, RPGs, racing games, etc. As for 2D - not really as all objects are fully 3D objects. But, one could create what I'd consider a '2D' shooting scroller bu the objects are in 3D. For more advanced gaming controls and controlling 2D or 3D one would 'graduate' into XNLA.

Here's a good article on Kodu

Last edited by BrianK on 03-Jun-2010 at 04:54 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 03-Jun-2010 at 04:50 PM.

@BrianK

Perhaps they'll just evolve the PS3 into the PS4 by giving it a 1.5x clockrate bump, some more memory and include MOVE motion controls natively.

Ofcourse 'PS4' wouldn't go over well with the PR department so they'd have to call it something else...

I suggest MOVii.

@Lou

I prefer the wireless Dual Shock style controllers to remain the primary controller for the playstation controllers, until at least there's a good virtual reality solution.

What I would love Nintendo to do would be to license future slimmer than PS3 slim technology from Sony and use that as a foundation for their next console. They should still brand it Nintendo for the fanboys, maybe we could have Super Mario Galaxy 1 & 2 HD remakes on a single Blu-Ray disc like Sony is doing for some PS2 classics.

Killzone 3 teaser trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZNBzmecI0I

A full trailer is planned for next week's Spike TV.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou I prefer the wireless Dual Shock style controllers to remain the primary controller for the playstation controllers, until at least there's a good virtual reality solution. What I would love Nintendo to do would be to license future slimmer than PS3 slim technology from Sony and use that as a foundation for their next console. They should still brand it Nintendo for the fanboys, maybe we could have Super Mario Galaxy 1 & 2 HD remakes on a single Blu-Ray disc like Sony is doing for some PS2 classics.

Oh come on now MikeB, Nintendo is a leader not a follower. Recall that the Wii is barely larger than 3 DVD cases as it is. Once again Sony was behind the times on the PS3 fatties.

IIRC, the Gamecube was also smaller than the PS2 and Xbox and could also take more of a licking and keep on ticking...

For what it's worth, SMG 1 & 2 already look so smooth that an HD Remix would be a waste of resources...besides an HD remix of that game on the PS3 would probably make for a choppy framerate compared to the silky smooth 60fps most Wii games run at.

Better to concentrate on the fully native Legend of Zelda Wii game that will be shown at E3 that will outsell Uncharted 2 in the 3rd person action game genre despite not being 'hd' and will last longer than 6 hours...if not 20+.

Last edited by Lou on 03-Jun-2010 at 07:32 PM.