@MikeB

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Wouldn't you want an option to install Mass Effect to significantly reduce its pop-in and loading time issues?

Sure, certainly and it's possible on the 360. Oblivion is one example that caches content ~4GB interactively on the 360 and I assume copied this feature to the PS3. Other games use the shared cache on the harddrive. Mass Effect choose to not do this. So the answer isn't that it can't be done. And yes the Mass Effect developers could have used the HDD and the pop-ins would have been reduced. I don't know if it'd reduce it as low as the Uncharted pop-in issues but it would be improved.

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Alternatively you can just delete a game you don't play anymore to install a new game.

It's rare that I ever want my saved games or games deleted.

Last edited by BrianK on 01-Jul-2008 at 10:43 PM.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @BrianK MGS4 and GTA IV are certainly worth the install. Installing is up to the developer to decide which is the best approach for them, it's not mandatory as can be judged while looking at the PS3 game library. Wouldn't you want an option to install Mass Effect to significantly reduce its pop-in and loading time issues?

It certainly would be quite possible to implement as optional feature.
This should be blamed on the game developer and not the system itself.
There are already games that caches data on the hard drive...
The transfer rate of the xbox hd seems also faster, as nearly all demos seems to load noticeable faster on the 360 compared to the ps3. Loading a stage/race in Grid demo took for example nearly twice as long on my ps3.

I think the main reason HD install is used on the ps3, is because the blueray is much slower. Popup problems would be worse on the ps3 if it was not for the HD installs.
One negative thing about forced HD installs is that it takes ages, even for demos.
Why the hell do you have to first download and then install the demos? Installing the demos can sometimes take longer than the download itself!
On the 360 there is no install required after the download.

Last edited by Tomas on 01-Jul-2008 at 11:00 PM.

@Tomas

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It certainly would be quite possible to implement as optional feature.

Not just would, is. Mass Effect developers choose to not consider HDD users. Other games, well they've taken other approaches

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The transfer rate of the xbox hd seems also faster, as nearly all demos seems to load noticeable faster on the 360 compared to the ps3. Loading a stage/race in Grid demo took for example nearly twice as long on my ps3

I've noticed that the PS3 seems slower on download and play of demo. Well and along with the annoying install the download step, the 360's is seemless. However, there are other factors there then just the harddrive. Interesting enough the PS3 7200RPM vs 5400RPM HDD testing seem to show that faster harddrive's don't really have any noticeable impact on performance.

@BrianK

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's rare that I ever want my saved games or games deleted.

Save games are usually small, why not keep them if you think you're going to play the game again in the distant future? (or backup them somewhere else)

Personally I deleted Oblvion and the tons of savegames because I gave the game to someone else. The game eventually became a bit too boring and samey, nevertheless I completed the game and nearly all its side quests, Arch mage of mages guild, Grand Champion of the Arena, I cured my vapirism infection, etc, so the game was certainly worth it. But I expect a follow up to be much more impressive and providing better acting to get me interested again.

Last edited by MikeB on 02-Jul-2008 at 09:52 AM.

@Tomas

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I think the main reason HD install is used on the ps3, is because the blueray is much slower. Popup problems would be worse on the ps3 if it was not for the HD installs.

That's of course not really the case as the Blu-Ray drive is faster throughout the disc, however some games' file structure has been optimized for DVD rather than Blu-Ray, this is going to improve a lot in future games.

For streaming the predictable speed throughout the whole disc is important, but as the outer tracks on dual layer DVD load slighly faster than the sustained speed of the PS3's Blu-Ray drive some data loads faster, this can for instance be the game engine and an opening scene.

I don't know if the default harddrive on the 360 is really faster or not, but the slowest harddrives are those found in the 20 GB PS3. This is something developers will have to take into account when designing a game, the minimal to be relied on data transfer rate is dependent on the 20 GB PS3 specifications. Of course the faster 60 GB drive I have still allows for some slight loading advantages, but nothing to depend on for the developer, just a little extra boost. Similarly you can upgrade your PS3 with much bigger and fastest 2.5 inch harddrives currently available, this will result in a boost of loading times regarding the XMB and game demo launches.

Firmware 2.4 is now available, I have updated the firmware and updated Super Stardust HD for the new trophy system.

It's very nice, just hit the Playstation button, the game keep running in the background while bringing up the XMB and now you can send out XMB messages to your friends, even if such features are not implemented in-game. There's now a quit game icon in the game menu.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @BrianK With regard to needing more space, the PS3 takes common 2.5 inch harddrives (much bigger, mopre options and cheaper than a harddrive for the 360). You are in control, you are not dependent on Sony to pick a new bigger harddrive. Replacing the harddrive is covered by warranty.

Ah yes, the hidden cost of the 40GB model, you get to buy a second HDD after you buy 10 games... I wonder home much space the HOME update will require...

Hey guys! Finally managed to find a supply of Dual Shock 3's and picked one up. No experiences yet, but I guess my console gaming experience (as far as equipment goes) is now complete for the time being.

Still shying away from Wii (happy with my Xbox 360 and PlayStations 3/2/PSP), but it continues to tempt me. But I'm guessing I'll just stay tempted.

Last edited by jtsiren on 02-Jul-2008 at 01:45 PM.

@Lou

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Ah yes, the hidden cost of the 40GB model, you get to buy a second HDD after you buy 10 games... I wonder home much space the HOME update will require...

Home will take up about 500 MB, it's going to be highly optimised to look as good as possible while taking up as less space as possible.

Games I own and have installed:

Blu-Ray:

Uncharted: Drake's Fortune - 0 MB (!), just save games take 256 KB.
Resistance: Fall of Man - latest multiplayer update - 303 MB, the save game takes 124 KB.
Heavenly Sword with update v1.10 - 2 GB, save game takes less than 4 MB.
Grand Theft Auto IV - 3.3 GB, save games take 737 KB.
Ratchet & Clank: Tools of Destruction 417 MB, save games take less than 1.4 MB.
Motorstorm update 3.1 - 233 MB, save data takes 857 KB.
Warhawk version 1.31 956 MB.

PSN games (completely HD installed games):

Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection - 603 MB
Snakeball - 78 MB
Super Stardust HD - 292 MB
Calling All Cars - 192 MB
Super Rub'a'Dub - 185 MB
Blast Factor -112 MB
Lemmings - 229 MB

PS2 games, total 8 MB reserved for virtual memory card save games:

God of War
God of War 2
Ape Escape 2
Ape Escape 3

So about ~9 GB of data on the harddisk dedicated to 18 games! This plus Home is going to fit a 20 GB PS3 easily!

@MikeB

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Similarly you can upgrade your PS3 with much bigger and fastest 2.5 inch harddrives currently available, this will result in a boost of loading times regarding the XMB and game demo launches.

Faster harddrive isn't as big as improvement as one might hope. See my post #343 and click the link to see a comparision of timing between a 5400RPM drive and 7200RPM drive.

In case you don't want to read it here's their conclusion.
"Based on our tests, the 7200rpm hard drive was ever-so-slightly faster, though only the savviest of PS3 owners will notice the difference...and even then, it's mostly psychological. "

It appears the biggest difference was copying media such as music from USB drive to the harddrive.

@BrianK

So about a 10-16% loading boost (note decompression and anything else which might be going on in these tests, so not strictly speaking only loading times per se). Those are not harddrive tests, they are user experience tests.

The amount of harddrive cache is also important and that's the main reason why the 20 GB PS3 harddrives are slower than the 60 GB models. 2 MB cache vs 8 MB cache.

Firmware 2.40 seems to be locking up some PS3's
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11190&Itemid=2

Seems a Playstation website was hacked...
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11189&Itemid=2

@MikeB

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Those are not harddrive tests, they are user experience tests

Not trying to be mean but DUH! A benchtest of a harddrive can tell you if a 7200RPM driver is faster than a 5400RPM drive. However, an actual usage test, such as they performed, measures what sort of impact the drive actually makes when you are using the applications. The purpose of the test was to see how the 7200RPM drive impacted the user experience. So valid for what they were testing for.

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The amount of harddrive cache is also important and that's the main reason why the 20 GB PS3 harddrives are slower than the 60 GB models

Possibly. In the test they used the same manufacture and model. One can look at the part #s and tell they're the exact same catch.

Here's the jist. If you're swapping harddrive to gain performance don't. It's not worth it. However, if you're swapping the harddrive to gain space then yes get the faster harddrive but don't expect earth shattering performance improvements.

More on PS3 lockups and a solution: http://kotaku.com/5021458/ps3-240-update-problems-and-solutions
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There doesn't seem to be any real pattern as to which systems are affected. 60GB, 40GB, 20GB, and 80GB systems alike have all been afflicted with the issue. We've contacted Sony for word on the issue, but in the meantime several of the more tech savvy forum posters have determined how to fix the issue, if you're willing to yank out your console's hard disk drive. Users found that removing and reformatting their PS3 hard drive and then reinserting it into the console would get the system to boot completely, after which it asks to reformat the disk again and everything runs normally. Of course they lose all of their saved games and have to redo all of their downloads, but I suppose that is better than sending in the system for a $150.00 repair. One can only assume that the update was the catalyst that caused certain data on affected hard disks to become corrupt, rendering the system unbootable. It would certainly explain why only certain systems are being affected, and why Sony couldn't have caught the problem in the first place.

Sony's firmware seems to be Russian Roulette... No, your gpu won't overheat, but upgrade to their latest firmware and you risk losing everything on your harddrive. This is a worse situation than the RRoD issue as alteast there, the user's information was retained...and there was not charge for the repair...

@Lou

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Sony's firmware seems to be Russian Roulette... No, your gpu won't overheat, but upgrade to their latest firmware and you risk losing everything on your harddrive

Sorry to hear about this. I'd think they would have learned from before when this sort of thing happened. It's definitely worth waiting to see/hear the 2.4 fall out. Likely 2.41 is coming next week if this is the case. Turning on my PS3 can wait....

Apparently one needs to be careful with these PS3 firmware updates - no console gaming without some precautions, huh? I did update to 2.40 without any issues, but next time maybe wait a while before going forward.

I did manage to unwrap the Dual Shock 3. It is somewhat heavier than the Sixaxis (but still not very heavy). This is good, Sixaxis always felt so flimsy. I still prefer the Xbox 360 controller ergonomically, but Dual Shock 3 should alleviate my worst complaints. Tried a couple of games of mine, no rumble support there though. Few more to try out later.

Didn't I read about a rumble update to Motorstorm and Resistance: FoM? Or are they not available in Europe? Motorstorm didn't report any update and I didn't manage to find it in the menus either. If anyone has any pointers on these, that'd help.

I'd especially like to get some Motorstorm blowing with rumble, that game has always SO needed it.

Sony has pulled 2.40 for now while they look into it.

@Lou

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No, your gpu won't overheat, but upgrade to their latest firmware and you risk losing everything on your harddrive. This is a worse situation than the RRoD issue as alteast there, the user's information was retained...and there was not charge for the repair...

There's no need for repair, it's some sort of software bug which on some systems for some reason stopped installing the update (corrupt file?) in the middle of the install.

Quickest solution to fix the problem is to format your harddrive on a PC, put it back inside your PS3 and let it format the disc as requested. The previous firmware update is still in the flash memory of your PS3 and this will be installed. Then sign into your registered account, everything you have downloaded before has been tracked, you can download everything again including everything you have bought from the Playstation store. Then you have to move your savegames onto the harddrive, hopefully you backed them up. Then everything's finally back to normal.

Sounds stupid for Sony to mess this up though. Luckily nobody I know of has been affected by performing this update.

@jtsiren

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Didn't I read about a rumble update to Motorstorm and Resistance: FoM? Or are they not available in Europe? Motorstorm didn't report any update and I didn't manage to find it in the menus either.

Try to play online multi-player in those games, to do so you will be required to download the latest updates.

@jtsiren

Also check if rumble has been enabled in your system settings, it can be disabled for those who don't want it.