@MikeB

Quote:

What 15 dollar movie?

$15 movies on HOME.

Quote:

@BrianK Weren't you complaining about how video rentals ruin the middleman? Quote: No that wasn't me.

Post #465 MikeB quote Quote:

Netflix cuts out the middle man (retailer) and thus isn´t very good for the economy

Obviously Blu-ray has been a double-edged sword for the PS3.

+ Granted, it looks good on paper spec-wise - I still think Sony had a really good marketing point when they showed that slide way back when about PS1 being CD-ROM, PS2 DVD-ROM ja PS3 BD-ROM, each generation adoption the latest and greatest, emerging optical media. (If only PS3 had fulfilled other marketing-generated technical expectations.)

+ Also, obviously it helped to win the HD optical media format war by propelling BD sales into territory beyond what stand-alones possibly could have (especially given the state of Blu-ray profiles etc.) ever done. HD DVD gave more of a fight than most would have thought, but still, PS3 helped BD a lot.

+ And sure, some games do use the extra capacity, although it is arguable whether or not this has any effect on the quality of the games appreciated by the market in general. But a tech-head can of course take some solace in the fact that some improvement is there (minus slow loading times).

But:

- Blu-ray is one of the main reasons PS3 is so much more expensive compared to Xbox 360. And everyone seems to agree (even MikeB) that price is the thing hurting PS3 at the moment, and has been for its entire life-span so far. Can this hurt be offset by later successes generated by the technology advantage over competitors? What if it can't - did BD end up hurting more than helping? Apparently Blu-ray was also the reason PS3 shipped late, wasn't it? Imagine a world with a DVD PS3 shipping a whole year earlier at 100-200 dollars less... I doubt we'd see a quality difference in games so far, really, and the market might look a lot different.

- It is possible that PS3 ends up helping Sony overall by helping Blu-ray. Arguably most of that push is now gone and moving on to cheap stand-alones (which finally start being feature complete like HD DVD players from day 1) and PS3 is not making much of a difference here anymore, but PS3 clearly helped to win the format war and if BD eventually becomes a major cash-cow for Sony, then in that regard having BD in PS3 could be a success for Sony even if PS3 itself were to fail. (But with the advent of streaming and online purchases, will BD ever be that DVD-busting success? It might, although maybe not as long-lived?)

- Both PS3 and BD are relying on somewhat premium pricing and premium features to differentiate themselves on the market. Too bad the market is in shambles right now, something probably not anticipated early on - not even the Wii-factor seemed anticipated, let alone the financial crisis. Will this affect their chances of success?

So, I think having Blu-ray on PS3 has helped Sony some, and hurt Sony some. One thing is sure, they have paid an impressive price to get their media format accepted as the next standard. We'll see if and when and to what degree they will get a pay-off from that price paid.

Last edited by jtsiren on 15-Jan-2009 at 10:17 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

More important for me at this point is another perspective. Would I have wanted the Amiga to be specced like an AtariST in the past and sell twice as many units? The answer is simply: "NO!". If the PS3 would have been specced like a Wii and the console would have sold tenfold, would I be a PS3 owner today? "NO!" If my Mercedes would be like a tiny mediocre Japanese car, would I drive a Mercedes today because millions more people would drive one? Answer: "No!"

That is of course a good and valid point, all of us obviously agree that the appeal of Amiga was its technical superiority at the time - be it the multitasking OS or the chipset, wonderful stuff. I wouldn't change it for any market success, however that really didn't help us in the long term... no matter how great Amiga was, by 1990s it was already far from the bleeding edge. What the Amiga is today, well, let's not even go there. Atari Lynx, a lot of Amiga stuff behind it in concepts and engineers, was far superior to Gameboy's and I owned one... but that didn't help when no games really came out for it.

Technical superiority is one thing. Amiga at least had its hey-day and we can all reminisce about the good years of late 1980s. Those were good years and technical superiority had a pay-off. Atari Lynx never really had that, but I do remember both products fondly because I can appreciate the technical prowess they presented to us at their respective times. From this perspective, I can also appreciate Blu-ray and Cell in the PS3, and at least the potential to do better than competitors tech-wise.

However, and I get it you used an over-exaggeration to make a point, from a gamers perspective I can hardly compare the PS3 with a Mercedes and, say, Xbox 360 with a small Japanese car. (Wii, of course, is another thing.)

I'm not even sure I want to compare the PS3 with an Amiga and the Xbox 360 with an Atari ST, because quality-wise the gaming end-results are not showing such a distinct quality difference, nor do the specs in my opinion. It is not like the Xbox 360 is some cheap off-the-shelf product riding solely on a slight megahertz difference and leaner no-frills OS (like Atari ST was) and PS3 is the only game in town with advanced chips and parallel processing (like Amiga was), both actually have some amazing custom-developed CPU/GPU technology inside - and from an operating systems/developer tools perspective Xbox 360 is actually the more polished one.

I know we have the benefit of hindsight, but to me, as tech-head myself, it seems to difference between an Atari ST and Amiga in the mid-1980s was day and night. You are right to point out some of the earlier game ports didn't show this (indeed Atari ST might run some faster because of the small megahertz difference and bad Amiga ports), but looking back and overall taking the OS into account as well, I don't think anyone - and gladly increasingly not even the general computing history - are disagreeing with which one was far superior.

Even PS2 vs. Xbox 1, which I think was a clear victory for the latter, wouldn't in my opinion compare with the Atari ST vs. Amiga fight. If anything, Xbox 1 was the Atari in that fight simply because of its origins (both Xbox 1 and Atari ST were based of off-the-shelf chips), but I don't think that would be fair either. What was special about the Amiga, was the architectural and software differences that were so ahead of its time. I know you like to draw parallels to Cell, but given the highly (and more than PS3 counterparts) parallel nature of the main CPU cores and GPU in Xbox 360 both are dealing punches in pushing technology.

Here's the thing. I think what made Amiga and Atari ST difference, was never in the end what was shown in games. Sure, Amiga's graphical prowess allowed cooler effects and some games the Atari just couldn't do as well, but Amiga also offered some really significant advances in operating systems technology and multimedia - at a time when multimedia and multitasking and multiprocessing (as far as the chipset did so) were nonexistent in home computing.

Now, looking at Xbox 360 and PS3, and I know we have spent many a "tome" here on AW.net discussing this, I'm just not seeing that kind of difference as a I saw with PS2 and Xbox 1... let alone the Atari ST vs. Amiga difference. I think PS3 in time might reach the PS2 vs. Xbox 1 levels, if the next-gen won't catch up before that, but I do think it would take quite a twist of history to look back on this time and say Xbox 360 was like the Atari ST and PS3 like the Amiga.

Maybe, just maybe, if Cell ends up being some kind of game changer, but... That's just it, if Amiga would have only been about a single chip, it wouldn't have been all that - it was a bunch of chips, bunch of software and the way it tied together that was so far ahead of its time. It is hard to look at PS3 and think ahead of time. Maybe if it had been all it tried to be and launched in 2005? PS3, in the overall specs and results it is providing, to me just is so close to the Xbox 360 as to makes no difference - so what remains to really matter is content and price, both to which market success contributes.

Both are simply too advanced pieces of hardware (with their own pros and cons for sure), to make that comparison honestly, in my opinion. PS3 may be a more polished total package, but to look at it somehow as a game-changer I think the Amiga was... I just don't see it.

Last edited by jtsiren on 15-Jan-2009 at 10:59 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 15-Jan-2009 at 10:57 AM.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Instead of analyzing data to see the real situation you instead start with the goal of "I want to paint Sony in the best light", and then you compile tidbits that at first glance do that. But its all smoke and mirrors. Who are you trying to sell here? Aren't you better served doing this on boards where people are not already tech savy if you want to gain Sony followers or whatever??

I've been asking this question from Mike for years now, but he just sees and thinks different, I guess.

I think there is meaningful discussing to be had concerning Xbox 360, PS3 and Wii, and their place on the market, but I agree it is hard to do if hyperbole and creative writing is the answer. If anything, I think this tact has made many of us sound more negative towards PS3 than we actually are because some points need to be driven home (no pun intended) unnecessarily hard.

Aside from the Mike issue, It is actually really encouraging to see how many of us actually agree on what is going on in the console competition. We all see the market potential for PS3, if Sony can make the right moves. It is not lost yet. Certainly Xbox 360 is not so far ahead that it isn't vulnerable. And we can see and discuss the quality issues plaguing Xbox 360, even if we don't accept CES 2009 pictures that show 2007/2008 pricing and product bundles as proof of ROD.

I think very few people are under any illusions, so all the more it puzzles me why Mike feels the need to try to "sell" us something, it is not like there are any deranged XO or Wii fanboys here.

@MikeB

Quote:

A lot of PS3 exclusives take good advantage of Blu-Ray disc through higher quality assets.

LOL on PS3's higher quality assets. RSX only a 8 ROPS, flawed concurrent shader/math and texture processing design.

PC-DVD(Games For Windows) vs XBOX360 vs PS3
http://au.gamespot.com/features/6202552/index.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=featurestop&tag=latest-features;title;5

Being exclusives doesn't change the fact that the PS3 has a cut down G70 class GPU i.e. 8 ROPS and it's less efficient GPU design. CELL wouldn't save PS3 since this chip is not designed "as a GPU".

Last edited by Hammer on 15-Jan-2009 at 01:00 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 15-Jan-2009 at 12:46 PM.

_________________
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delete post

Last edited by Hammer on 15-Jan-2009 at 12:59 PM.

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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@all

Some recent articles of interest:

"PlayStation 2 still playing games _ and 50M strong"

Quote:

The PlayStation 2's successor, the $400 PlayStation 3, sold 378,000 units in November. Launched in 2006, it has lagged its rivals, Microsoft's Xbox 360 and the Nintendo Wii, when it comes to unit sales. Its price likely has a lot to do with this. While the console includes a Blu-ray player and other extra features, it's more expensive than the $250 Wii and the cheapest Xbox 360, which goes for $200. Daniel DeMatteo, the chief executive of video game retailer GameStop Corp., recently called the PS3 a "great machine," but said it is a bit pricey for a recession.

http://money.aol.com/news/articles/qp/ap/_a/playstation-2-still-playing-games-and/rfid175136344


"Sony May Report First Operating Loss in 14 Years, Nikkei Says"

Quote:

The company also said it will cut 16,000 positions, curtail investments, farm out production and move away from unprofitable businesses.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aSl2klOPkqPI&refer=japan

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 15-Jan-2009 at 06:33 PM.

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
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Nintendo wins exclusive deal for Capcom's Monster Hunter 3 title
old article but worth emphasizing...

http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2007/10/10/afx4204151.html

Quote:

'Due to high development cost of titles for PS3, we have decided to switch the platform to which we release our Monster Hunster 3 title,' Capcom managing corporate officer Katsuhiko Ichii said.

Quote:

Hamamura also said the decision by Capcom, which has a reputation for creating high-grade graphics, may also help encourage more third-party game developers to enter the Wii business, because it was thought that Wii would not be able to cope with such titles as Monster Hunter that requires strong graphical chip power.

Quote:

In unveiling the exclusive deal with the influential game developer, Nintendo president Satoru Iwata said that the company is now 'entering the third phase of its strategy, aimed at expanding the game player population.' ... We managed to lure those who have never played games or those who have stopped playing games to play them,' Iwata said. 'I understand that some experts argue that our success is short-lived and temporary. So, we now need to make efforts to constantly expand the player base by offering services and titles that can appeal not only to those who have never played games but also to those who play them hard,' he said. Analysts think the deal could strike another blow to the Sony camp, which is losing support from game developers.

Emphasis mine.

Just as most people consider DVD quality 'good enough'...once developers put an actual effort in tapping the Wii's power, the average consumer will feel the same way about the Wii's visuals, but have the added avantage of Wii controls in their games. Most 3rd party Wii titles have thus far not even lived up to the Gamecube's standards...

The tide is turning.

@Lou

Quote:

'Due to high development cost of titles for PS3, we have decided to switch the platform to which we release our Monster Hunster 3 title,' Capcom managing corporate officer Katsuhiko Ichii said.

Something similar happened to GhostBusters. The developers stated so much more could have been done had the game been a PS3 exclusive. Due to the 360's less power they needed to hold some stuff back on the game. Now some (MikeB) blame the 360 for the need to hold some stuff back. However, the right answer is to blame Sony for losing their #1 (PS2) position and falling to #3 (PS3) in the market. Had Sony been able to continue their lead the developers wouldn't even be considering making a cross platform game. I suppose if you want to blame Microsoft one could blame Microsoft for making a more compelling platform and moving from a distant #3 (Xbox) into #2 (360).

US Videogame rental increases in 2008.

Rentrak points out that the Xbox 360's overall rental market share increased from 26.1% to 36.8% in 2008, while Wii game rentals jumped from 7.3% in 2007 to 17.1% in 2008. Seven of the top-ten 2008 titles were rated Mature, compared to four in 2007

Certainly a sign of the economic times. Spend a couple bucks for a game to rent not $60 to own.
360 : 7 out of the top 10 most rented games.
Wii : 3 out of the top 10 most rented games.
PS3: 0

@BrianK

Quote:

$15 movies on HOME.

So far there are only free trailers on home. You are mixing things up, the new video store and the new Playstation Home service.

Quote:

Weren't you complaining about how video rentals ruin the middleman?

Quote:

No that wasn't me.

Reread what I was responding to, what I said and then reread what you wrote. You'll figure it out eventually.

NPD for December (US Sales):

Nintendo DS - 3,040,000
Wii - 2,150,000
Xbox 360 - 1,440,000
PSP - 1,020,000
PlayStation 3 - 726,000
PlayStation 2 - 410,000

* The industry’s top 4 selling games of 2008 were: Wii Play™ at No. 1, Mario Kart™ Wii at No. 2, Wii Fit™ at No.3, and Super Smash Brothers™ Brawl, at No. 4.
* In December, Nintendo titles filled 20 of the top 30 spots on the best-seller list. Six games made for Nintendo systems placed in the top 10, including Wii Music™ for Wii (No. 9), which has now sold 865,000 units following its launch in October 2008, and Mario Kart DS for the Nintendo DS (No. 7), which has sold a total of 4.3 million units 38 months after launch.
* Activision’s Guitar Hero® III: Legends of Rock and Guitar Hero® World Tour, and MTV Games/EA’s* Rock Band Special Edition Bundle all sold more units on Nintendo platforms than any other platforms in 2008.

and the kicker:

* More 3rd party units were sold for Wii than any other home consoles in December for the 2nd consecutive month.

Last edited by Lou on 16-Jan-2009 at 12:44 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

So far there are only free trailers on home. You are mixing things up, the new video store and the new Playstation Home service.

Okay Thanks. I guess the $15 movies on the PSN are not huge sellers.


Quote:

You'll figure it out eventually.

You commented on Netflix being bad for the economy because it takes out the middle man. I commented that you were worried that movie rentals would be bad for the middle man. These are only not related if you are myoptic enough to believe that Netflix is the only video rental store that removes the middle man.

@Lou

Pretty amazing.
PS2 x 2 ~ PS3 sales
PS3 x 2 ~ 360 sales
360 x 1.5 ~ Wii sales

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @BrianK Quote: No that wasn't me. Reread what I was responding to, what I said and then reread what you wrote. You'll figure it out eventually.

MikeB: I love the color red.

BrianK: Weren't you the one that said you like crimson?

MikeB: No that wasn't me.


Normal person: I love the color red.

BrianK: Weren't you the one that said you like crimson?

Normal person: Close. Crimson is a little off from the type of red I was thinking of when I said red is a color I love. Think more like a scarlet.


Mike, you aren't kidding anyone with your smarmy supposed "comeback".

_________________
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@MikeB

Quote:

Reread what I was responding to, what I said and then reread what you wrote. You'll figure it out eventually.

Maybe when so many people, none of which are stupid, manage to 'somehow misunderstand you,' consistently, the problem is not with them, but with the way you present yourself, or with the way you make statements.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster & BrianK (Big sigh!)

Lou:

Quote:

Sony expected to post 1.1 Billion in losses.

Quote:

...meanwhile the Wii save Christmas in the US and sells 3.25M in December...

MikeB:

Quote:

Sony is still performing better than many other consumer electronics firms, I don't think the Wii pushes much for high definition upgrades or other tech upgrades like advanced audio setups. It's a nice toy, but IMO not what other major heavy employing consumer electronics companies really need to battle against recession. Nintendo itself is a very tiny employer (about 2% of Sony's workforce).

fairlanefastback:

Quote:

Profits help battle against recession

MikeB:

Quote:

Just profits is IMO not enough, IMO Nintendo needs to employ more people for the money they are generating. A villa and mercedes for the CEO will not help the economy enough.

fairlanefastback:

Quote:

Netflix streaming as well and get in at a lower price point

MikeB:

Quote:

Netflix cuts out the middle man (retailer) and thus isn´t very good for the economy, besides that people don´t actually own the paid for content and it´s of far lower quality than BluRay. I don´t think it´s much of a direct competitor.

BrianK:

Quote:

Weren't you complaining about how video rentals ruin the middleman?

So to summarize what I stated and what I didn't.

1) I don't think profits alone is enough

For example 10 Bill Gates types leading a luxury life (560 billion USD) I find far less effective battling a recession than having 5.6 million hard working people employed having a solid credit of 100,000 dollars each. Those 5.6 million people will IMO be a lot more productive with regard to battling recession than those 10 rich guys counting thier cash doing nothing really special.

2) I said Sony employs a lot of people.

That's for example one area potential profits are being spend on. It would be easy for them to create short term profits for example by firing half of their workforce to cut costs. But this would be very bad for the economy (and the company for the long run), despite the generated profits. IMO investments are needed, especially in people.

3) I said Netflix cuts out the middle man, thus IMO not very good for the economy.

Note I didn't say what Netflix is doing is bad for the ecomony.

Neither did I say it ruins the middleman. Not by a long shot, Netflix is a relatively tiny company employing far less people and generating far less revenue than retailers and competing rental services are generating. For example only Blockbusters generates 5 times as much revenue and employs 50 times as many people allowing them to take care of their families (maybe amongst the kids future doctors or fieworkers, actually saving people's lifes. Production workers, specialists, scientists, etc)

Hopefully we are now on the same wavelength now...

Last edited by MikeB on 16-Jan-2009 at 04:56 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 16-Jan-2009 at 04:43 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 16-Jan-2009 at 04:38 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 16-Jan-2009 at 04:37 PM.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

MikeB: I love the color red. BrianK: Weren't you the one that said you like crimson?

I think red and purple would make a more spot on example.

@MikeB

Sorry not on the same wavelength yet.

Quote:

Netflix cuts out the middle man (retailer) and thus isn´t very good for the economy,

I stated you were worried about ruining the middle man. Now you say that. Quote:

Neither did I say it ruins the middleman. Not by a long shot,

So how does NetFlix cut out the middle man but also is good for it?

You go on further to describe Blockbuster. How is BlockBuster a middle-man that Netflix cuts out but makes better? This description might be better but can you enhance our understanding of what you mean further?

Quote:

Blockbusters generates 5 times as much revenue and employs 50 times as many people allowing them to take care of their families

Don't know if that statement is true either. We'd have to look at how the employment is laid out. In my state the majority of BlockBuster employees are clerks who barely make more than minimum wage. Often they have multiple jobs because BlockBuster doesn't pay them a living wage. So they aren't able to take care of their kids futures if BlockBuster was their only employ. I don't know what Netflix pays their employees but I'd bet it's a wage closer to a living wage where they can make ends meet and don't need a 2nd job. The odds that a Blockbuster employee is saving for their kids college are low enough to say they are non-existent.

For this interested in the Wii FPS: The Conduit
IGN has posted 2 more videos. On in particular goes into detail about the customizable controls for those unfamiliar with FPS controls for the Wii.

http://media.wii.ign.com/media/142/14248157/vids_1.html