@AMiGR

Quote:

Quote: In fact, it is the licensing scheme that enables such business proposals to be considered in the first place. Although, it doesn't force Amiga Inc. to comply with every business proposal they are offered, they are still free to decline as they see fit. No, it isn't, without the licensing scheme, any company would be able to pay Hyperion for a port to their hardware and Hyperion could also self-finance a port that they see fit to do themselves. Oops! Guess what? Now, you have to go beg Amiga Inc., a company that has 0 to do with AmigaOS, developmen-wise, in order to get past a superficial limitation: The hardware licence.

Do you realize what a license is? I don't think you do. A license is a set of privilidges granted by the intellectual property owner. Take away those privilidges and what do you have? That's right, no privilidges at all. Hyperion wouldn't be able to program any version of the AmigaOS for any kind of hardware what so ever. How's that for a "superficial limitation"?

What would be required to achieve what you want is a licensing scheme with a different set of licensing terms, not that the licensing scheme is annulled. You want a licensing scheme enabling hardware companies to go past Amiga Inc. and directly to Amiga Inc.'s third party to apply for support of their hardware in Amiga Inc.'s OS. My question to you is; why? Is it because you think it would somehow make the process faster due to cutting down on a "middle-man" or is it because you think Amiga Inc.'s third party (Hyperion) would make more favorable decissions for which hardware to support?

In any case, as the owners of the AmigaOS intellectual property, Amiga Inc. decides entirely on their own to which extent they should grant others the right to exploit it. They obviously have an interest in what hardware their IP should be associated with or not and that is a condition that Hyperion has to comply with in order to not violate the license agreement. Would you have prefered that Hyperion declined to the license agreement based on that condition, leaving us with no AmigaOS4 at all?

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

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@samface

Quote:

Quote: samface wrote: @AMiGR Guess what? Now, you have to go beg Amiga Inc., a company that has 0 to do with AmigaOS, developmen-wise, in order to get past a superficial limitation: The hardware licence. Do you realize what a license is? I don't think you do. A license is a set of privilidges granted by the intellectual property owner.

The hardware isn't Amiga Inc's intellectual property, why would someone making hardware want to get a license? They don't care what you run on it.

Anyways, the license is dead dead dead, it's no longer an issue.

Last edited by T_Bone on 19-Jan-2006 at 04:49 AM.

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

Quote:

1. Each of these teams had experience in OS design. BeOS' team was from Apple (and various other OS teams), NT came from Microsoft and DEC (and IBM, to some extent), Linux had CS majors (many still taking CS courses) that were familiar with BSD (the 'real' one), and Andy - well, most of us here are familiar with Andy's work. The Hyperion programmers hadn't designed an OS before (well, as far as public info is available).

The question is: why porting an OS when you have no experience on this type of work ?
Why do you think people working on NT, BeOS,... had experience ?
And the last one: while Amiga knew Hyperion may not have had (at least back then) enough experience in OS programming, why giving this task to them ?

I've got no 3D knowledge at all and I'm not gonna code a 3D FTP starting from tomorrow...

Leo.

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@syrtran

Quote:

Each of these teams had experience in OS design. BeOS' team was from Apple (and various other OS teams), NT came from Microsoft and DEC (and IBM, to some extent), Linux had CS majors (many still taking CS courses) that were familiar with BSD (the 'real' one), and Andy - well, most of us here are familiar with Andy's work. The Hyperion programmers hadn't designed an OS before (well, as far as public info is available).

OS/2 1.x ecosystem is implemented in user land. Windows NT(1) kernel shares more with VMS; hence the settlement between DEC and Microsoft. OS/2 1.x support has been dropped in NT 5.1(Windows XP).

Reference
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/Windows-NT_is_VMS_re-implemented.html

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2006 at 08:52 AM.

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Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@syrtran

why did hyperion get to make Amiga OS if they have never made one before?

@Leo
Quote:

And the last one: while Amiga knew Hyperion may not have had (at least back then) enough experience in OS programming, why giving this task to them ?

Amiga Inc. even doesn't know how to run their own business. Why would anybody expect them to make wise business decisions and the ability to give tasks to the right people? This doesn't mean that they automatically do wrong decisions. I don't really know if Hyperion or the Frienden's have any previous experience in OS programming. I also don't know how quickly you can get into it, or which of their previous experience (Warp3D, PPC-games, ...) is beneficial for this task.

Quote:

Why do you think people working on NT, BeOS,... had experience ?

You can't only judge that by the factor of "experience". You should also look into the manpower they had available for finishing their OS. That's probably the main limitation factor concerning Hyperion (although 3rd party developers are doing their best to help).

Last edited by hatschi on 19-Jan-2006 at 09:00 AM.

@ppc4me
>Ah, so that's why it must be so cheap now!

Refer to comments from developers on why Xenon PPE core(per core basis) performed like double the speed of XBOX’s Coppermine-128.

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2006 at 09:42 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@hatschi

I think you should stop right there. I don't think you'll find a lot of people more qualified for the kernel job than Thomas. Stop insulting him.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

I think you should stop right there. I don't think Thomas needs anyone to defend him, specially someone who "thinks" to know what he is or is not able to do.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@falemagn

Quote:

I think you should stop right there. I don't think Thomas needs anyone to defend him, specially someone who "thinks" to know what he is or is not able to do.

I agree, he does not need anyone to defend him. He already proved himself to be more than capable of writing a kernel.

@falemagn

And you still did the excact same thing as me (defending him). Congratulations on engaging the brain there

Do you honestly think Thomas is going to be insulted by me saying he's qualified for his job?

Bah, what's the use, you're just going to twist my words anyway.

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This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

Actually, everyone should stop here.

Continue on with the thread please. No insulting of other members of this site.

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Calm Down, Calm Down!

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Dark Lord Design Wicked Solutions For Damned Problems

@samface

"Intellectual property" is a very mushy term, other countries do not even have such a concept.

Better speak of it as trademarks, copyright or patents and such.

@samface

Quote:

My question to you is; why? Is it because you think it would somehow make the process faster due to cutting down on a "middle-man" or is it because you think Amiga Inc.'s third party (Hyperion) would make more favorable decissions for which hardware to support? In any case, as the owners of the AmigaOS intellectual property, Amiga Inc. decides entirely on their own to which extent they should grant others the right to exploit it. They obviously have an interest in what hardware their IP should be associated with or not and that is a condition that Hyperion has to comply with in order to not violate the license agreement.

That's quite right. However, as end users (not linked by contract to Amiga inc like Hyperion developpers might be) we can talk more freely than Hyperion can.

I don't want to engage in a flame against Ainc - at least they allowed a new desktop version of the OS to be developped and (somehow) delivered to the public.

However, to answer your question :

Quote:

is it because you think Amiga Inc.'s third party (Hyperion) would make more favorable decissions for which hardware to support?

Let us remember what happened to Be when they started targeting the Windows hardware platform. When you target a market that's owned by Microsoft, you can expect them to try everything to retaliate.

Now, Amiga inc's Amiga Anywhere is moslty targeting Microsoft's Pocket Windows - and AFAIK that will become quite impossible without Microsoft's blessing or tacit consent. Is it that hard to imagine what would happen the day Amiga inc decide Hyperion has to switch to x86?

Let us remember also the way Microsoft prevented Gateway to do anything with the Amiga, pointing how doing so would be seen by Microsoft as a breach of contract/partnership.

Does this help understanding why some people think Amiga inc's licensing scheme isn't the best for Amiga OS future, even though they allowed a few thousand people to move to OS4?

So when I hear people bashing any idea to move to x86, well they're playing Microsoft's game. Let us all stay on hardware choices that can only support a few thousand people. That way we'll keep safe and cosy, and Amiga inc can still pursue their dream of an Amiga Anywhere platform.

OTOH, I'm not bashing Amiga inc - they want to keep food on the plate, and like you I agree it's now their intellectual property. But copyright's first purpose is to protect the author's achievments so they don't disapear, not to prevent them to be used by the most people possible.
*Not* to cripple someone's work till you make that work useless.
So I can understand Dave Hayne's fustration - even if morons would say he got paid for his job, I don't think any of these engineers were really paid as much as they did - nor do I think they were there for the money in the first place.

For Hyperion, I'm really happy there's still people dedicated to my favorite OS. And I'll hapilly give a 100$ subscribtion to any x86 port they would want to make - even before they start the work. Because I'll know whatever they manage to make out of it, it'll all go into the OS developpement - not into any hardware problems, nor into any game developpement.

@olegil

You just didn't get the point, did you?

the guy you replied to expressed his own opinions, based on the outcome of the decisions made 4 years ago, and also based on what Dave H. said. However, you call them insults, just because they annoy you for the way you want to see Thomas, to the point you come out and defend him on the basis of what you "think" Thomas knows, but without any knowledge of such stuff whatsoever - correct me if I'm wrong.

If Thomas thinks he needs to defend himself about such things, he's perfectly able to do so. It gets really boring to see hordes of fanboys jumping to the neck of the first one who dares to say something which they don't like. Come on guys, grow up!

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@TrebleSix

ok ...Where'd you dig that photo up of me ?

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I dont suffer from Insanity - I enjoy it

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@The_Editor

Quote:

ok ...Where'd you dig that photo up of me ?

Hehe, just kidding

@Thread: can we go back to the topic without insulting each other?
Edit: Or an moderator should close this thread.

Last edited by cHaOs667 on 19-Jan-2006 at 12:29 PM.
Last edited by cHaOs667 on 19-Jan-2006 at 12:29 PM.

_________________
Ei gude wie!
I love my AMIGA Collection...
2x A500 (1x 1MB) OS1.3
1x A600 (40MB HDD) OS2.05 (broken joyport)
1x A1200 (68030/50, 32 MB Fast RAM) OS3.1
1x A4000D 040/40 (48 MB Fast), OS3.9, Fastlane Z3, CV64, Deneb, Indi AGA
1x CD³²
1x µAOn

@cHaOs667
Quote:

@Thread: can we go back to the topic without insulting each other?

Sure. As far as I can see, olegil was the first using the word 'insult' in this thread. I don't see any relevance to hatschis post however - he simply said that he doesn't know.

You want to get back to the topic? So funny that it's you who is mentioning this.
In another post you were asking if people could...

Quote:

stop this damn and mindawayblowed "I want AOS4 on my ####ty x86 Dell Box with its 20 years old BIOS full of failures..." discussion - ARGH!!!

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17049&forum=2&start=60#254655

If you changed your mind, I am more than happy to welcome you in this thread.

Last edited by polka. on 19-Jan-2006 at 12:59 PM.

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This signature is in the middle of a much needed facelift!

@polka.


yeah i know that i wrote that but at the time i wrote this sentencend nobody talked with each other about the opinions that Dave Hayne has made and the whole thread had become just another "i want OS4 on my x86 box" - "why not cheap x86" whining thread from the same people that does this everytime and this makes me sick.

And now the thread is at an point where the people are talking about that Hyperion can't do an OS (they can - OS4 is the best proof of that) and thats Off-Topic too.

So im gonna go back to my work. Theres an tariff aplication that needs my attention.

_________________
Ei gude wie!
I love my AMIGA Collection...
2x A500 (1x 1MB) OS1.3
1x A600 (40MB HDD) OS2.05 (broken joyport)
1x A1200 (68030/50, 32 MB Fast RAM) OS3.1
1x A4000D 040/40 (48 MB Fast), OS3.9, Fastlane Z3, CV64, Deneb, Indi AGA
1x CD³²
1x µAOn