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      /  I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
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tomazkid 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 29-Sep-2006 15:46:26
#181 ]
Team Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

@Chip

Quote:
Tomazkid asked us to continue the arguing in PM:


Yes, given the past record of you both, I think it is better you both take it via PM

Feel free to write in this thread though, just take the personal stuff via PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 29-Sep-2006 15:47:28
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12103
From: Norway

@itix

Quote:
someone did copy MorphOS because OS4 is no longer using MMU as a mandatory 68k->PPC transition scheme


Well MorphOS and AROS developers complained about almost every thing that where done different, now your complaining about they are doing some thing closer to what they do on MorphOS

MorphOS and AROS developers used to complain about the interface system too, now your saying that interface systems make it so munch easier for you to make wrapper, it makes it easier for you track code and debug code.

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Rachy 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 29-Sep-2006 15:49:11
#183 ]
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Joined: 21-May-2004
Posts: 276
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@itix

Quote:
Latter would beed MMU management anyway because 0x4 is write protected. The first one requires that you install a handler but at least public docs are not offerint this option.

I don't see any problem with managing the MMU via MMU interface of Exec. Access would trigger a DSI which is a simple exception, nothing else needed, but an exception handler. No black magic involved.

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Rachy 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 29-Sep-2006 15:59:30
#184 ]
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Joined: 21-May-2004
Posts: 276
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@itix

Quote:
someone did copy MorphOS because OS4 is no longer using MMU as a mandatory 68k->PPC transition scheme


You must be kidding. (Even if you intended, it was a poor joke.) I was who suggested the actual form of the emulation trap, according to what I already used in my Plus/4 emulator long time before MOS exsisted. So, I could claim that MOS copied my "invented method", if it wouldn't be silly, because the method is so simple and obvious that anybody might figure out on his/her own. (And probably did in other emulators under the Big Yellow Sun.) Even if nowadays every fart of the IT engineers are patented...
I would rather suggest you to keep out the discussion of who copied who topic, because it is deeply sensitive in MOS-wise...

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Chip 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 29-Sep-2006 16:08:41
#185 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2005
Posts: 574
From: Budapest, Hungary

@itix

Quote:
someone did copy MorphOS because OS4 is no longer using MMU as a mandatory 68k->PPC transition scheme


Quote from ChainQ:
Quote:
Well, IMO it's always clever to look at how other people solved things before you, especially if it's your competition...


LOL

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 29-Sep-2006 17:07:29
#186 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12103
From: Norway

@itix

but itix don’t you think that MorphOS can’t run in side a virtualized memory, address 0x4 being some thing different like 0x40004 or some thing in reality
after all AmigaOS4 support that feature, any way it where suggested to use a different expiation handler for sysbase, some thing that checks if FindTask(0) if same as MosEmu then do some thing else.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 29-Sep-2006 17:15:33
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12103
From: Norway

@itix

Quote:

How? Access from absolute address doesnt require relocating information and ELF loader cant figure out where 0x4 address is accessed. But it could maybe analyse startup code and detect where 0x4 address is referenced.


Or maybe some thing like JIT compiler that compiles PPC code as PPC

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drHirudo 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 29-Sep-2006 17:57:48
#188 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1109
From: Sofia

@Crumb

Quote:
The QBox idea is quite good (even if it hasn't evolved much).

If OS4 team wants to have full memory protection and other goodies while keeping the system compatible with old apps they'll have to implement a similar "sandbox" idea.

MacOSX also did that for Classic < = 9.2 apps.

A real sandbox is already available for AmigaOS 4 and I use it from sometimes, and the apps are fully protected. It's called E-UAE and if something crashes, simply close E-UAE and reopen it again - there is nor risk for AmigaOS 4 as long as E-UAE don't crash itself.

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pixie 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 29-Sep-2006 18:05:48
#189 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2688
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@drHirudo

Quote:
It's called E-UAE and if something crashes, simply close E-UAE and reopen it again - there is nor risk for AmigaOS 4 as long as E-UAE don't crash itself.

Presto, you've said it all... I use it too, and for most of the time, *even* when WinUAE crashes itself it doesn't take the whole system with it

Last edited by pixie on 29-Sep-2006 at 06:08 PM.

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samo79 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 29-Sep-2006 20:49:19
#190 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2003
Posts: 3443
From: Italy, Perugia

MOSEmu for OS4 would be cool

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brotheris 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 29-Sep-2006 23:04:34
#191 ]
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Joined: 4-May-2005
Posts: 193
From: Unknown

LOL @ some OS4 users/developers. I don't really want to know what is your problem, but it looks like serious one

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Tuxedo 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 30-Sep-2006 0:10:28
#192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2326
From: Perugia, ITALY

@moderators and users

mmm...
Here seems to be OUT of topic...
If situation will drop fell free to close that topic...
I hoped in a better discussion form for that topic...
And I still hope that something will happen in positive
Everyone was free to write his opinion but plz dont try to force other peoples to think about that prob like you...
Simply explain your opinion and go on on discussion

NO WAR!

Tuxedo.

Last edited by Tuxedo on 30-Sep-2006 at 12:10 AM.

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itix 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 30-Sep-2006 0:21:48
#193 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@Rachy

Quote:

I don't see any problem with managing the MMU via MMU interface of Exec. Access would trigger a DSI which is a simple exception, nothing else needed, but an exception handler. No black magic involved.


Ah indeed, it is possible add exception handlers using AddIntServer() call.

Quote:

You must be kidding. (Even if you intended, it was a poor joke.)


Not kidding.

Quote:

I was who suggested the actual form of the emulation trap, according to what I already used in my Plus/4 emulator long time before MOS exsisted. So, I could claim that MOS copied my "invented method", if it wouldn't be silly, because the method is so simple and obvious that anybody might figure out on his/her own.


Seems pre1 was still using mainly MMU based 68k->PPC transitions? Old libraries from pre1 dates dont have traps (i.e. mpega.library) while newer libraries have traps (asyncio). And wasnt there an idea to use MMU only to switch between 68k and PPC?

Quote:

(And probably did in other emulators under the Big Yellow Sun.)


Yep, Basilisk II uses all kind of illegal instructions to patch Mac ROMs.

Quote:

I would rather suggest you to keep out the discussion of who copied who topic, because it is deeply sensitive in MOS-wise...


Is this an ego thing again?

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Samwel 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 30-Sep-2006 1:39:33
#194 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@itix

Quote:

Is this an ego thing again?


Ego.. Well, I don't know Rachy so I wouldn't know.

But this makes me think about the story about two insane guys calling each other crazy.
Don't remember the specifics but I guess the point gets through..

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Samwel 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 30-Sep-2006 1:51:16
#195 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@brotheris

Quote:

LOL @ some OS4 users/developers. I don't really want to know what is your problem, but it looks like serious one


As usual, most MOS developers/users think they are the sane & sensible ones..

Please put ANOTHER link at MorphZone and MooBunny and tell the others how stupid the
AW people are.. (I don't mean you specifically with this Brotheris)

Wonder how most of the elitist people got be on one side of the "fence"???
IMHO many need a big dosage of humility.

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Rachy 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 30-Sep-2006 8:13:29
#196 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-May-2004
Posts: 276
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@itix

Quote:
Seems pre1 was still using mainly MMU based 68k->PPC transitions? Old libraries from pre1 dates dont have traps (i.e. mpega.library) while newer libraries have traps (asyncio). And wasnt there an idea to use MMU only to switch between 68k and PPC?

No, there was no public version which was based on MMU based 68k->PPC context switch, because we dropped it at an early stage, when difficulties came up which I don't want to elaborate here. (Not as interesting, anyway.)
The MMU-based crosscall is still operational at some level to avoid huge hacks which would be required to get the badly written programs work, which applying direct hook calls. But due to certain (intended) limitations it cannot be used any longer for proper function calling. (And would be also pointless.)
I don't know how mpega.lib used to work, or is working now, but one thing is certain: there was never possible to use the MMU-based crosscall for API function calls in the public releases.

Quote:
Yep, Basilisk II uses all kind of illegal instructions to patch Mac ROMs.

Told ya. Guess what: I have never saw the sources of Basilisk II. (Not even the binary itself... ) I was able to figure out this magnificient technology on my own...

Quote:
Is this an ego thing again?

Ego(?) thing again(?)
Turned to some personal angle, or what?
I was referred to that MOS was copied a whole API and still does via OS4emu. Thus I don't think that bringing up this "they copied usss!!!!11" thing (hi Charles! ) is particularly wise. (Not to mention that it is not even true.) But I didn't wanted to write this down: it is a clear trolling bait. So, let's just rest this topic.

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brotheris 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 30-Sep-2006 8:58:49
#197 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-May-2005
Posts: 193
From: Unknown

@Samwel

And yet, you do the same - put labels on "blue", the same as "blue" put labels on you. So stop it =)

Anyway, my fingers missed word "hungarian" on previous message. I guess their "outrage" shown here is just a shadow of flames on their local sites/lists :))

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COBRA 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 30-Sep-2006 9:11:55
#198 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Rachy, itix

You're both talented and highly respected developers, please stop these silly arguments about who copied what from where as it leads nowhere. I copied the CrossfadeZoom wipes of WarpView from a Mac screensaver, so what? DvPlayer has a skinnable GUI yet I did not invent skinnable GUIs... just no point in these arguments.

Last edited by COBRA on 30-Sep-2006 at 09:12 AM.

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falemagn 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 30-Sep-2006 9:19:41
#199 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@Rachy
Quote:

No, there was no public version which was based on MMU based 68k->PPC context switch, because we dropped it at an early stage, when difficulties came up which I don't want to elaborate here.


The point I believe Itix is trying to get across isn't as much that AOS4 copied MOS, as the AOS4 original design turned out to be flawed, in this regard, just like everyone but AOS4 people had said at the time and been highly critized for.


Last edited by falemagn on 30-Sep-2006 at 09:52 AM.
Last edited by falemagn on 30-Sep-2006 at 09:20 AM.

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itix 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 30-Sep-2006 10:13:57
#200 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@Rachy

Quote:

I was referred to that MOS was copied a whole API and still does via OS4emu.


Friedens copied (correct term is reimplemented) Exec API yet nobody see problem

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