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lavo 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 8:13:37
#101 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2004
Posts: 128
From: Perth, Australia

Here's my take, after lurking for ages!

1. You can't use Amiga in the name. Since it looks like there will be multiple hardware providers, it would mean all of them would use Amiga. Since Amiga Inc don't actually produce any hardware, how can a third party use the name? I would be like Dell calling their new PC the Windows Media Box. I could imagine HP and other PC manufacturers might be little miffed..... I'd like to see the old Powered By Amiga stickers on the box instead.

2. Ditch the numbering scheme. The masters of IT marketing Apple ditched them ages ago and it has worked wonders. The iMac and iPod are household names. The Dell Optiplex GX620 is not (and is a mouthfull). Keep it simple - Xbox, Playstation, Gamecube, iMac etc.

3. Have one case. Everyone on this board can identify each Amiga model by its case. The same with iMacs, iPods, Xboxes, Playstations etc. I always felt this was one problem with the A1 - it was just a motherboard. Then everyone pimped out their own cases and the identity was lost. Sam (and whatever other boards eventually get released) needs one case (or two, if you go a desktop and tower). What's on the outside is what people will remember, not within.

4. Get some marketing guys in when Sam (and the others) look like they are going to come to fruition. Let them create the spin that's needed to make the product stand out from being another PC. Engineers are excellent at engineering, marketeers are good at marketing. Commodore sucked at marketing too Don't repeat the same mistakes they did!

Flame at will, but the above is what I think.

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K-L 
Re: Samantha traveled to France (updated)
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 8:32:34
#102 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1396
From: Oullins, France

@gary_c

Ah, actually the Amiga market is a plus for the Samantha board but it is not their primary goal which is, if I have understood correctly, embedded market and Linux distributions. Si I think the 10 000 bar can be reached if the manage to lead their boat as previous.

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Dirk-B 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 8:39:50
#103 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1180
From: Belgium

@lavo

Ok, you are right.

If they launch the board in a nice red case, they can
better call it "Sexy Sam" instead of "Amiga 440".



_________________
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lavo 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 8:41:30
#104 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2004
Posts: 128
From: Perth, Australia

@Dirk-B

Quote:

Dirk-B wrote:
@lavo

Ok, you are right.

If they launch the board in a nice red case, they can
better call it "Sexy Sam" instead of "Amiga 440".





Sexy Sam will definately get some attention Especially if the logo is of a certain Sam that used to be a Page 3 girl many moons ago!

Last edited by lavo on 25-Oct-2006 at 08:42 AM.

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hatschi 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 9:45:19
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@K-L

Quote:
I was first answered 400¤ and then 500¤ depending on the demand. I extrapoled with Relec (seller of the nice cases, also present at the Alchimie) what would be the total price of a whole configuration withous display. It could en up at maximum 900¤ (including VAT).

Quote:
Obviously, it was excluding Amiga OS 4


I wonder if the term "entry-level hardware" is still appropriate.
Unfortunately, I can't justify to spend so much money on a board with specs as low as that. It would be nice as a geek-item, a device with a similar to e.g. a GP2X. A device for hobby-coders, geeks and the Amiga retro crowd.
But with that general purpose and the offered performance in mind, it shouldn't cost much more than 300 EUR including OS4.

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COBRA 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 9:46:21
#106 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
My point was that the Amiga market needs something with *lower* specs, *lower* specced CPU, and *lower* price.


Obviously. For instance a 900 EUR samantha system would be way overpriced. I think the uA1 was available for around 650 EUR (including tax, 256MB RAM and OS4). The Samantha has a 20% slower CPU which is soldered too (no CPU upgrade possibility). Although it has a more powerful graphics chip, to make it a success its price has to be significantly lower than the uA1 was, I would say that if they manage to make the boards reach the customers at 500 EUR max including tax and OS4, it will be a huge success among the remaining Amiga-enthusiasts. After these few thousand people have invested though, they'll have to be able to reduce the price if they want to attract more outsiders, but for that we also have to have a lot of key software which we currently don't have (Good web browser, etc.)

Quote:
IMHO everyone has a completely wrong focus. Most discussions here are about 7448 CPU's @ 1.7GHz. Some discussions are going even further, and pointing out that the 7448 is nothing compared to the latest top of the line x86 CPU's. Which is true, but not the point in an Amiga context. Why would you really want a 1.7GHz 7448 for AmigaOS, at least if you are a regular "joe-user"?


I say that we need both low-spec and high-spec boards available. Some people want 1.7GHz G4's or more, others are prefectly happy with sub-1GHz machines because it does what they need. I would not say that someone has wrong focus because they want to use their computer for more demandning applications, like graphics/video work. I know that we don't have too many applications for OS4 which let you do that yet, but with only 600-800MHz hardware available, the platform won't be taken seriously by the "big" developers out there.

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herewegoagain 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 10:07:31
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2003
Posts: 3270
From: Charlotte, NC

@lavo

Quote:
by lavo on 25-Oct-2006 4:13:37

Here's my take, after lurking for ages!

1. You can't use Amiga in the name. Since it looks like there will be multiple hardware providers, it would mean all of them would use Amiga. Since Amiga Inc don't actually produce any hardware, how can a third party use the name? I would be like Dell calling their new PC the Windows Media Box. I could imagine HP and other PC manufacturers might be little miffed..... I'd like to see the old Powered By Amiga stickers on the box instead.


Well the Amiga market is a bit different. Here, Amiga Inc has to approve hardware for use with Amiga OS before giving it a license. For Amiga, I believe when they (OEM company) pay the license fee, it includes the right to market the product as an Amiga, and using Amiga branding. That's why I suggested using a simple "Amiga" on the case because it is simply recognizable. A small moniker somewhere else which designates a specific model number such as SAM440EP (which is the model stamped on the Sam board itself) would be okay.

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lavo 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 10:29:35
#108 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2004
Posts: 128
From: Perth, Australia

@Herewegoagain

I think that idea is a recipe for disaster. It only takes one of those hardware manufacturers to produce something that fails to drag the whole Amiga name back into the mud. If every machine is labelled an Amiga, then the general public will assume they all come from the same company. So if one of the hardware manufacturers goes bust, the public will still think that Amiga holds the warranty for the machine and one of the other manufacturers has to fix it for free.

If I were Amiga Inc, I would make sure there is a clear distance in the general public's mind between the OS they are using and the machine it is running on.

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K-L 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 10:30:58
#109 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1396
From: Oullins, France

@Cobra

I speculatedon the price but I doubt that with a board at a minimum price of 400¤, you could end up with a total configuration for 650¤. What's more, don't forget what elwood say about performances.

I think that only a real test with OS4 orunning coul (or not) justify the price.

_________________
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AmigaONE X1000, 2GB, Sapphire Radeon HD 7700
FPGA Replay + DB 68060 at 85Mhz

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Simon 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 10:38:26
#110 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Feb-2005
Posts: 999
From: Antwerp / Belgium

@Herewegoagain

Well I agree to that ... just put Amiga on it and maybe they can put a bootscreen in the Bios with Samantha in it or whatever.

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Raffaele 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 10:53:18
#111 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@Herewegoagain

Quote:

Herewegoagain wrote:
@lavo

Well the Amiga market is a bit different. Here, Amiga Inc has to approve hardware for use with Amiga OS before giving it a license. For Amiga, I believe when they (OEM company) pay the license fee, it includes the right to market the product as an Amiga, and using Amiga branding. That's why I suggested using a simple "Amiga" on the case because it is simply recognizable. A small moniker somewhere else which designates a specific model number such as SAM440EP (which is the model stamped on the Sam board itself) would be okay.



Yes. You got the point, and you explained it well to Lavo.

@ Lavo

Quote:


@Herewegoagain

I think that idea is a recipe for disaster. It only takes one of those hardware manufacturers to produce something that fails to drag the whole Amiga name back into the mud. If every machine is labelled an Amiga, then the general public will assume they all come from the same company. So if one of the hardware manufacturers goes bust, the public will still think that Amiga holds the warranty for the machine and one of the other manufacturers has to fix it for free.

If I were Amiga Inc, I would make sure there is a clear distance in the general public's mind between the OS they are using and the machine it is running on.


Just first let people at Amiga Inc. free to check with proper tests if Samantha accomplishes all the standards of quality.

If the answer will be: - "yes, it does!"...

...then they will be free to license Amiga brand name to this new product and let AmigaOS run on it.

Simple and plain...

And by the way, thanks to SoC technology all the problems with Articia chip will be no more.

I have heard from corner voices by people who manufactured Samantha that even in first memory tests done here in Italy in laboratory seems that Sammy overcome AmigaONEs by many points without any data loss even during stress tests.

As long as bus chipset is built in AMCC PPC processor, and thanks to DDR memory directly soldered on motherboard, whole electronic design it grants no bottlenecks of data transfer at maximum speed, and more no data loss or any kind of corruption.

_________________
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number6 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 12:29:04
#112 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11464
From: In the village

@Herewegoagain

Quote:
Well the Amiga market is a bit different. Here, Amiga Inc has to approve hardware for use with Amiga OS before giving it a license.

This point bears repeating.
It IS part of the process of getting a board from conception into the users' hands.
Much of the angst of waiting for product is accompanied by questions of "why oh why
do we not have a license yet."
When you can connect this to an understanding of the desire to produce a quality
product that satisfies the needs of -all- parties involved, as well as the end
user, it becomes a bit easier to endure this "waiting period".
It is done out of care, and not to "annoy" everyone.

#6


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lavo 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 14:49:56
#113 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2004
Posts: 128
From: Perth, Australia

@number6

I understand perfectly well that a hardware manufacturer has to jump through hoops to get a license from Amiga Inc.

My point is that from what I can gather, there is potentially more than one hardware option on the horizon from different manufacturers. If all the solutions are called "Amiga xxxx", Joe Public will assume that they will all come from the same company. If they are advertised "Amiga xxxx" by Company X, and "Amiga yyyyy" by Company Y, it might create even more confusion. "Why are there competing products with the same name?".

I'm not disputing in any way that the Samantha is not a quality product - from the photos and what I have read it sounds like a lot of thought has been put in to it.

What is of concern is that Amiga Inc is quite happy for successful licensees to use the Amiga name as part of the product name, when in fact all they are doing is producing a hardware solution that runs OS 4. I know a lot of people are eager to get the Amiga name out there again, but I just hope they have thought this through. Its one thing to work hard to finally get a hardware solution available to those that have been so patiently waiting, but what happens afterwards?

Maybe I'm just a little worried that we seem to be so close now to getting a solution together again, that somewhere along the line we have forgetten something that may not be important now, but down the track it is very important.

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murakami 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 14:58:09
#114 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 150
From: Flayosc, France

Here are some more news about Samantha (french only sorry) :
http://www.relec.ch/SAM_Alchimie6/index.html

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lavo 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 15:01:59
#115 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2004
Posts: 128
From: Perth, Australia

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote:

@ Lavo

Quote:


@Herewegoagain

I think that idea is a recipe for disaster. It only takes one of those hardware manufacturers to produce something that fails to drag the whole Amiga name back into the mud. If every machine is labelled an Amiga, then the general public will assume they all come from the same company. So if one of the hardware manufacturers goes bust, the public will still think that Amiga holds the warranty for the machine and one of the other manufacturers has to fix it for free.

If I were Amiga Inc, I would make sure there is a clear distance in the general public's mind between the OS they are using and the machine it is running on.


Just first let people at Amiga Inc. free to check with proper tests if Samantha accomplishes all the standards of quality.

If the answer will be: - "yes, it does!"...

...then they will be free to license Amiga brand name to this new product and let AmigaOS run on it.

Simple and plain...

And by the way, thanks to SoC technology all the problems with Articia chip will be no more.

I have heard from corner voices by people who manufactured Samantha that even in first memory tests done here in Italy in laboratory seems that Sammy overcome AmigaONEs by many points without any data loss even during stress tests.

As long as bus chipset is built in AMCC PPC processor, and thanks to DDR memory directly soldered on motherboard, whole electronic design it grants no bottlenecks of data transfer at maximum speed, and more no data loss or any kind of corruption.


I think you have missed my point. I'm no way disputing the quality of Samantha at all. My point is that there could possibly be 4-6 hardware solutions manufactured by three different companies (that we know of), plus there could also be some solutions we have not heard of.

Now, if all the hardware solutions come to market and they are all called Amiga . Excluding the people who read this forum, most people out there will think they all come from the same company, Amiga. But what if something happens with one of those companies making Amigas? It doesn't have to be a hardware problem. It could be poor after sales service, lack of availability of hardware, the company goes broke, or something personal happens to one of the staff that happens to make the news. Any one of those negative things could happen. As far as the average punter is concerned, they could perceive that as a problem with Amiga. There may be nothing wrong at all with Samantha - its sales are up, returns are almost non-existant, and everyone at the company is happy. But company X is the one with the problems. But because the Amiga name is tied so tightly with the other manufacturers, everyone else suffers. That is why I think the Amiga name should be used for the OS only. If company X fails, it is not going to affect others in the Amiga market.

I hope that is a little clearer! Make no bones, I'm so hoping for Samantha to be available for purchase with OS 4 soon!

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Raffaele 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 15:23:07
#116 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@lavo

Well... What you describes it is correct, and it is just what it happened with Eyetech...

However it is the same condition as in purchasing hardware for PC X86.

You could buy for example a good video card from X-firm manufacturer whihc is assembling this video card.

The chipset of that videocard is made by BRAND-Y famous name, but the videocard it has some characteristics and features just from X-firm.

If X-firm will discontinue the product, or entire X-firm will got demised, then you could buy other products featuring same chipset from BRAND-Y famous name, but they will not have same characteristics and features which are peculiar from X-firm.

These problems are common and quite normal all around the market...

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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herewegoagain 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 23:37:27
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2003
Posts: 3270
From: Charlotte, NC

@Raffaele

Well, not to mention that any computer should come with some sort of warranty paper or information which gives the end user the name of the company they should contact for warranty or support issues.

The reason that Eyetech had a "problem" was because they started out selling the product directly to end users. Those end users were right to go back to Eyetech for warranty issues and support.
I really don't think it will be a problem though.

You are right, it is just like manufacturers making Geforce cards or Radeon cards and using that name on their product. They don't build a card with those chips and call them Mighty Zeus Graphic Card or something that has no meaning to the customer what they are buying. Likewise, ATI is not going to give end users support for a PowerColor Radeon card, but the customer knows to contact PowerColor if they have a problem or need support.


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lavo 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 1:04:05
#118 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2004
Posts: 128
From: Perth, Australia

@Herewegoagain

Quote:

Herewegoagain wrote:
@Raffaele

Well, not to mention that any computer should come with some sort of warranty paper or information which gives the end user the name of the company they should contact for warranty or support issues.

The reason that Eyetech had a "problem" was because they started out selling the product directly to end users. Those end users were right to go back to Eyetech for warranty issues and support.
I really don't think it will be a problem though.

You are right, it is just like manufacturers making Geforce cards or Radeon cards and using that name on their product. They don't build a card with those chips and call them Mighty Zeus Graphic Card or something that has no meaning to the customer what they are buying. Likewise, ATI is not going to give end users support for a PowerColor Radeon card, but the customer knows to contact PowerColor if they have a problem or need support.




Ah, but graphic cards are different. They are in individual component bought by someone who has reasonable knowledge of computers. Furthermore, ATI and NVidia have made hardware available. All Amiga doing are providing an OS that was built by someone else!

If Amiga are serious about getting back into the marketplace, they will be selling the machines to "mom and dads" who just want to turn it on, get their emails, surf the web then turn it off. If you see Amiga on the front of the case, it will be easy to assume that Amiga built it.

Using the example above, if the manufacturer is put on the warranty papers, what happens if they go bust? Are one of the other Amiga manufacturers going to take on any warranty issues?

Eyetech were the only manufacturer before. So if there was a problem, they were the only ones to take the heat. But if you have multiple manufacturers, if one fails there is a chance that the others will also take the heat because they are tied so closely to the Amiga name. This is the point I'm trying to make.

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herewegoagain 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 1:36:09
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2003
Posts: 3270
From: Charlotte, NC

@lavo

Different products, yes, but the outcome would be the same regardless. Bottom line is, if you put a name on a machine like "Samantha", "Panda", or whatever else, there is no brand recognition. People will look at it and say "it's some kind of PC running Linux or something". The branding could even have a sub-branding such as AMIGA by Troika. Recall when Amiga first came out in the US that it was just called AMIGA, the ads later started advertising it as AMIGA by Commodore, and eventually Commodore AMIGA.

There has to be brand recognition. The AmigaOS is not instantly recognizable by the general public like Windows is. I do understand the point you are making, but I just don't see it actually becoming a problem. People who purchase products tend to call up the company they purchased it from when they have problems. If that is an Amiga dealer, they will direct them to the appropriate place for their particular problem. Also, that was originally one of the requirements for licensing and branding, for the OEM company to be able to provide the support and service to the end user. Besides, if Amiga really wanted to, they could just do like Microsoft and provide a "pay per minute/hour" support line for issues with the OS, and direct the user to their place of purchase for hardware issues.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Samantha traveled to France
Posted on 2-Nov-2006 14:20:50
#120 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

2 cool case

http://cgi.ebay.it/Mapower-KC3000-fuer-EPIA-Mini-ITX-luefterloses-Netzteil_W0QQitemZ150053879872QQihZ005QQcategoryZ77173QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&item=150052963844&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

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