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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Reality check
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Darrin 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 22:41:46
#101 ]
Team Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 1941
From: Lake Charles, USA

@falemagn

Quote:

falemagn wrote:
There's basically nothing that today AmigaOS4 can do for anyone that some other OS's out there don't do already. AmigaOS doesn't make sense on a mass market handheld, nor on the desktop, nor anywhere else I can imagine. Wherever you look at there's already someone selling his product, or even giving it away for free.

No offence intended to anyone, but given this is a reality check thread, what about checking reality... for real?


If that was really the case then we're all wasting our time here and we may as well go OSX or Vista. Let's face it, we just get off on being different and there's something about the AmigaOS that just feels "right".

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 0:03:06
#102 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
The interesting thing here though IMHO (in the context of this thread) is whether Genesi could actually help things out for the OS4 team or not?

OK, now that the main point of the thread has been dissected to death and that the thread has digressed, let's discuss this topic that you are introducing for the second time - but I take your final silence about the main point of the thread as an acceptance of what has been illustrated to you.

Would you please explain what makes you think that Genesi could help the OS4 team (assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have)? You must have an idea, a spark in your mind. Or is it just a random/wishful/cheerleaderish idea?

saimo

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 0:08:07
#103 ]
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2821
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@saimo

Let's start by saying they could provide the hardware...

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 0:20:12
#104 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@pixie

Quote:
Let's start by saying they could provide the hardware...

Which is not a possibility because AInc does not give a license to Genesi and/or Genesi does not want to buy one (in fact, Genesi, as recently said by bbrv themselves in another thread here, intends to insist on the hopeless and false point that they already have a license).
Any other viable idea?

saimo

Last edited by saimo on 16-Dec-2006 at 12:33 AM.

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 1:41:54
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2821
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@saimo

I assumed you were questioning what Could Genesi do for Amiga OS 4 team, namely on how... and again I think you pose the very same question when referring on 'assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have'

Genesi could help them bringing more hardware... but namely it could help the users or wanna be users... but who cares about them anyway...

Quote:
Would you please explain what makes you think that Genesi could help the OS4 team (assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have)?

Last edited by pixie on 18-Dec-2006 at 11:46 PM.
Last edited by pixie on 18-Dec-2006 at 11:29 PM.

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minator 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 2:18:42
#106 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@gary_c

Quote:
My understanding is that that statement about winning a lawsuit is a complete fabrication. If anyone has seen any confirmation of that claim, please post the info. It appears to be deliberate misinformation.



If Treveur brought a case I'd be *very* surprised if he lost.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 11:11:29
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@pixie

Quote:
I assumed you were questioning what Could Genesi do for Amiga OS 4 team, namely on how... and again I think you pose the very same question when referring on 'assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have'

No need to assume or extrapolate anything. takemehomegrandma was throwing around the thought that maybe Genesi could help (not only here, but also here) and I basically asked "How so?". Then you answered my question by saying that Genesi could provide the hardware. I replied saying that (and explaining why) that's not a possibility, and asked for some other idea.
That was it. Very simple.
Now, why do you *again* repeat that
Quote:
Genesi could help them bringing more hardware

when that point has already been answered?
Since you quoted me, you have read at least a part of what I wrote. Did you read my *whole* reply? If not, please do it now and consider reading every part of what people tell you; if you did, then consider that deliberately re-stating your point without addressing those that counter it is not correct nor nice.

That said, if you have any *other* idea on how Genesi could help AOS4 team, feel free to share it with us.

edit: when checking the correctness of the links in my post I noticed that the quote "assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have" belongs to my original question to takemehomegrandma! What game are you playing? You skipped my reply to you *altogether* and resorted to a trick to re-state your point! That's incredible and unrespectful. That's pure trolling.

Quote:
but namely it could help the users or wanna be users... but who cares about them anyway...

Please keep the innuendoes to yourself.
And please note that this is not a port-AOS4-to-EFIKA / EFIKA-can-save-AOS4 thread.

saimo

Last edited by saimo on 16-Dec-2006 at 11:20 AM.

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 13:00:08
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2821
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@saimo

Ok m8...

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gary_c 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 13:07:04
#109 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Mar-2004
Posts: 874
From: Chiba, Japan

@minator
Well, you're in a position to know, and I have no problem if he or anyone else did have a legitimate reason to sue and and got what they were owed. What I was told by the other party -- which presumably is also in a position to know -- is, contrary to what's written at morphos.net, that there was no suit (for whatever reason).

-- gary_c

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Darrin 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 14:30:06
#110 ]
Team Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 1941
From: Lake Charles, USA

@saimo

Quote:
Would you please explain what makes you think that Genesi could help the OS4 team (assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have)? You must have an idea, a spark in your mind. Or is it just a random/wishful/cheerleaderish idea?


I'm starting to think that you really don't want an answer to this question. Genesi make hardware. Genesi have hardware. Genesi are selling hardware RIGHT NOW. Amiga Inc claim that they'll license OS4 to any 3rd party with the resouces to back up the product.

Right now, Genesi are the ONLY option available at a realistic price short of paying a fortune for evaluation boards.

So, your question has been answered. Now answer this one:

"Why don't you want anybody to sucessfully market OS4?"

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 14:50:30
#111 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@falemagn

Quote:
There's basically nothing that today AmigaOS4 can do for anyone that some other OS's out there don't do already. AmigaOS doesn't make sense on a mass market handheld, nor on the desktop, nor anywhere else I can imagine. Wherever you look at there's already someone selling his product, or even giving it away for free.


Very true. So why don't we all give up on our Amiga-alike OS of choice, be it OS4, AROS or MOS, and all start using Windows? I choose Windows because that's what everyone else uses, and is the obvious market winner. Therefore there's no reason to use anything else. We don't even need MacOS or Linux to exist, because Windows already provides for anything they do. It runs on desktops, PDAs, cell phones, video games, tons of embedded things, for what reason does anything else whatsoever exist?

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lgn 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 15:39:43
#112 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2006
Posts: 17
From: Unknown

@saimo
> Which is not a possibility because AInc does not give a license to Genesi

Actually AInc. doesnt give a license to anyone it seems. And since both sides publically stated that there are differences regarding the contract they signed (and changed at least once), this doesnt come as a surprise. How should someone grant a license when its not sure 'who owns/decides what' and how should things handled in the future, which alone is a topic for itself.

I think there are two other things quite obvious:

a) Hyperion is not satisfied with the hardware situation as it is now: Everytime a "suitable hardware" pops up the screen, difficult negotiation between amiga inc. and the hardware manufacturer (and not hyperion!) would be necessary to get it supported. And that is even diplomatically said..as the conditions of the hardware license scheme, makes it almost impossible for any serious business to even go into negotiations with AInc, let alone to sign a contract.
Regarding the legal dispute between Hyperion and AInc, I believe that Hyperion is pushing for an agreement giving them more freedom of choice.

b) Amiga Inc. needs Hyperion: I'm not sure if AInc (latest) claims about OS5 were merely for giving them ammunition for a lawsuit they're fighting. But if they're really "serious" about their plan of an 'upgrade path to OS5' and 'OS5 rocking the PS3, if not OS4 already does it' and the likes, they wont come around to sign a long term agreement with hyperion. And that surely cant be an agreement which leads to chaos once again.

Once this is (hopefully) settled in terms both can live with, there are multiple possibilities how "Genesi could help the OS4 team" by providing interesting hardware platforms (like the Efika) for OS4:

a) AInc/Hyperion or a 3rd party could license Genesi HW

b) OS4 could be offered for a set price

c) OS4 comes as OEM like MorphOS

No matter how, it is hardly argueable that it would have anything else but a positive impact on the whole amiga(tm) market.

And, to come to an end..I think the whole hardware issue does more depend on a contract between Hyperion and AInc than between AInc and Genesi (it always did). Lets see what comes out, if they seriouly want to make business with OS4.

Last edited by lgn on 16-Dec-2006 at 03:48 PM.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 20:44:26
#113 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@Darrin

Quote:
I'm starting to think that you really don't want an answer to this question.

Then please stop right there. Your interpretation is wrong.


Quote:
Genesi make hardware. Genesi have hardware. Genesi are selling hardware RIGHT NOW. Amiga Inc claim that they'll license OS4 to any 3rd party with the resouces to back up the product.

Right now, Genesi are the ONLY option available at a realistic price short of paying a fortune for evaluation boards.

So, your question has been answered.

Your answer is identical to pixie's, and I had already replied on my turn. After pixie insisted with the same answer, ignoring my reply, I had to explicitly point out that repeating the same answer without considering the arguments of the other side is not nice. Eventually, pixie kindly accepted my remarks and we were done.
Now, you come up again with the *very same* argument, ignoring my point once again. So, you get the very same reply: EFIKA is not a possibility because AInc does not give a license to Genesi and/or Genesi does not want to buy one (in fact, Genesi, as recently said by bbrv themselves in another thread here, intends to insist on the hopeless and false point that they already have a license).
It's interesting how up to now my question has been answered exclusively with the same *useless* answer.

Quote:
Now answer this one:

"Why don't you want anybody to sucessfully market OS4?"

Your question is based on a wrong assumption of your own (i.e. that I don't "want anybody to sucessfully market OS4") that seems built for your own convenience, thus it deserves no answer.

You know what, your overall behaviour makes me think of this part of the TOS:
Quote:
Troll: Trolls show no respect for other people's opinions and deliberately crafts messages to provoke others with the intention of wasting their time and energy or just to cause anger and confrontations.


Finally, it's also interesting how you seem to be interested in what saimo wants or does not want... feel free, but be aware that my personal preferences have *zero* influence on the matters being discussed.

saimo

edit: clarified a point with "exclusively".

Last edited by saimo on 16-Dec-2006 at 08:47 PM.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 21:31:25
#114 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@lgn

Quote:

> Which is not a possibility because AInc does not give a license to Genesi

Actually AInc. doesnt give a license to anyone it seems.

You used the right word: "seems".

Quote:
And since both sides publically stated that there are differences regarding the contract they signed (and changed at least once), this doesnt come as a surprise. How should someone grant a license when its not sure 'who owns/decides what' and how should things handled in the future, which alone is a topic for itself.

What sort of mix is this? I'll try to interpret it by splitting it in two parts.

The first part (until "surprise") seems to be about AInc and Genesi. So what? We are *not* discussing *why* AInc does not give a license to Genesi and/or *why* Genesi does not want to buy one. It's a *fact* that Genesi does not have a license for AOS4 - whatever the reason. But somebody was wondering whether Genesi could help the AOS4 team, so I asked how that could be possible. Do you have any idea? Or do you just want to talk once again about the fight over the license?

The second part seems to be about the ownership of rights over AOS4. There's been a lot of deep, reasonable and even ingenious speculation about the issue, but that's just *speculation*. But, above all, as you say yourself, it "is a topic for itself.": so why did you bring it in?

Quote:
I think there are two other things quite obvious:

a) Hyperion is not satisfied with the hardware situation as it is now: Everytime a "suitable hardware" pops up the screen, difficult negotiation between amiga inc. and the hardware manufacturer (and not hyperion!) would be necessary to get it supported. And that is even diplomatically said..as the conditions of the hardware license scheme, makes it almost impossible for any serious business to even go into negotiations with AInc, let alone to sign a contract.
Regarding the legal dispute between Hyperion and AInc, I believe that Hyperion is pushing for an agreement giving them more freedom of choice.

b) Amiga Inc. needs Hyperion: I'm not sure if AInc (latest) claims about OS5 were merely for giving them ammunition for a lawsuit they're fighting. But if they're really "serious" about their plan of an 'upgrade path to OS5' and 'OS5 rocking the PS3, if not OS4 already does it' and the likes, they wont come around to sign a long term agreement with hyperion. And that surely cant be an agreement which leads to chaos once again.

Once this is (hopefully) settled in terms both can live with, there are multiple possibilities how "Genesi could help the OS4 team"

Gotta admit it, that was creative
To avoid digression I won't go into the points you illustrated, but I'll just use them as they are and be creative myself: I hope you don't mind if I rewrite your last sentece my way
Once this is (hopefully) settled in terms both can live with... Genesi has to acquire a license!
Just to be clear: even if getting a license was the easiest thing in the world, it still could be impossible for Genesi or Genesi could still be unwilling to buy one (why is explained by the ocean of posts that have been filling daily the Amiga-oriented sites for the last years).

Quote:
No matter how, it is hardly argueable that it would have anything else but a positive impact on the whole amiga(tm) market.

I never said a single word about this issue.

Quote:
And, to come to an end..I think the whole hardware issue does more depend on a contract between Hyperion and AInc than between AInc and Genesi (it always did).

Is that wishful thinking or do you have a serious reason to think so?

Quote:
Lets see what comes out, if they seriouly want to make business with OS4.

To me it sounds like: since AInc does not give a license to Genesi, then they don't seriouly want to make business with OS4. Fact is, it is not publically known how serious AInc is about AOS4.

I'll try to sum it up... no, wait... some friends came pick me up... can't do it now :-p

saimo

P.S. this post is really hurried...sorry for any form of idiocy that managed to slip through...

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hatschi 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 21:38:12
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@lgn

Great post, sums it up pretty well.

@saimo

Quote:
EFIKA is not a possibility because AInc does not give a license to Genesi


Good to know that we've got a clairvoyante among us. Honestly, *how* do you know?

There are currently *so* many uncertainties (OS4 ownership, unclear situation between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion, ...) that I can't grasp how *anybody* can have a clear say on possible future OS4 licensees. Neither can anybody make a definite prediction on Genesi's acting (in the future) given *different* circumstances. But that's exactly what you are doing.
Further, especially given the "license-requirements" lined out by McEwen (Amiga.org interview, revenue figures >500.000 USD), how could Amiga Inc. possibly grant a license to **any** producer of PPC-based desktop hardware?

If you would just stick to your own mean-spirited thinking and ignore for one time any double-standards, you would have to admit that -no- hardware would realistically have any chance to get a license.
Just to get my hopes up, I'll rather stick to "let's just wait until all this mess get's finally sorted out". I can only hope that the unclear situation soon get's resolved in favour of Hyperion (with a hope for a freedom of choice regardless of any "political" reasons).

Last edited by hatschi on 16-Dec-2006 at 10:03 PM.
Last edited by hatschi on 16-Dec-2006 at 09:52 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 16-Dec-2006 22:12:35
#116 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2303
From: Unknown

@saimo

Quote:

saimo wrote:

Would you please explain what makes you think that Genesi could help the OS4 team



Finnaly putting AInc out of it's misery would probraly the greatest help Hyperion could get from anyone.

Actually I think freeing the OS from that Zombie-corp is essential for it to ever be more than an historic obscurity.

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 3:25:57
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2821
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@saimo

Quote:
But somebody was wondering whether Genesi could help the AOS4 team, so I asked how that could be possible. Do you have any idea?


Help out OS4 team how? Helping as in charity? When I (and I weren't alone) presented Hardware as a way to help out OS 4 not only you didn't said on how it was against your question, nor you explained how it would fail to do so, just said it wasn't possible, not that wouldn't be of help.

Genesi are as Amiga a comercial entity, but unlike Amiga they actually deliver some goods, as for helping out OS4 team without being charity some sort of compensation would be needed, perhaps having OS4 running on some of Genesi machines would be a logical path to take.

Presenting a platform nowadays in Amiga land could be reason enough to be seen as help, not to you as for you since 'AInc does not give a license to Genesi and/or Genesi does not want to buy one'... as if presenting some sort of vague explanation could in the end be presented as fact. Then you go as far as adding that, 'bbrv themselves' (...) 'insist[s] on the hopeless and (false point) that they already have a license', forgeting that they have indeed a license, and perhaps if you do the math you would acknowledge that:

1. having made a contract where Genesi is granted an Amiga OS, an Amiga OS is due to Genesi. Perhaps it was in the shape of Amiga DE, I don't know, didn't read the contract, besides God knows how many times they and AmigaOS had changed plans, but Genesi shouldn't be the one to blame on missing and continuously exchanging plans*.

2. For one company who doesn't even have AmigaDE done, it might, emphasis on might, be easier for them to actually exchange one good they actually have, emphasis on have, an AmigaOS 4 license.

As for
Quote:
No need to assume or extrapolate anything. takemehomegrandma was throwing around the thought that maybe Genesi could help (not only here, but also here) and I basically asked "How so?"


Sir, I went to the trouble of actually read the branch on where I answered and strangely I could find the references you gave to me, you expect to present an idea and at the same times assume others had read what you have? So had you read an article on slashdot and started dissecting it here without giving factual clues who would be to blame... sir?

Your question, is a simple question, someone who reads it wouldn't go dissecting all over the thread looking for clues for a question asking if Genesi could help out the OS4 team, and doubting if indeed the OS4 team needs some sort of help, please...

So once again, how so and refering to the non charity venture of Genesi, I would say 'by bringing more hardware', but that can labeled as a trollish attemp, or as some sort of a game or trick, so this time I will only say: by bringing hardware. Hope it's better now, as it's go straight to the point because indeed someone who states 'You must have an idea, a spark in your mind. Or is it just a random/wishful/cheerleaderish idea?' isn't nowhere that pit...

Quote:
Now, why do you *again* repeat that

Because it seemed the only sensible thing to say, someone asks me what AOS 4 team needs, and Hardware come to mind, in all bells and whistles, and if I repeated I must add you that for no other reason I done it then the failure of understanding what you really meant by it** or that I cannot see past what it is to me more then faire divers to the real issues, amongst them an useless company springs to mind, one company which has done nothing more then allowing others to part with their money and take risks for them but is being praised as if done something well.


* changing plans might not be a bad thing if you try to presenting costumers with a better service (not diverging from it), but being Genesi an Amiga client, wouldn't/shouldn't it be included in the changed plans? What you say is that exchanging plans is good namely if by doing that you're screwing your costumers...

**or perhaps your failure in explaining what your question really were, as you assume that I would be inferring from all the content in this thread just so that after thoroughly reading each one of the posts, after acknowledging all the relationships between all of them I could safely answer to SAIMO question when he doesn't goes to the trouble of doing the same.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 13:34:47
#118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@hatschi

Quote:
Quote:
EFIKA is not a possibility because AInc does not give a license to Genesi


Good to know that we've got a clairvoyante among us. Honestly, *how* do you know?

In this post I wrote: "[...] AInc does not give a license to Genesi and/or Genesi does not want to buy one (in fact, Genesi, as recently said by bbrv themselves in another thread here, intends to insist on the hopeless and false point that they already have a license) [...]".
In this post I repeated the very same thing.
In this post I wrote: "*[...] why* AInc does not give a license to Genesi and/or *why* Genesi does not want to buy one [...]".
Now, that "and/or" means precisely that I cannot tell whether it's because of the first factor (AInc), the second factor (Genesi) or both. The fact that Genesi does not have a license means that at least one of the factors - for *whatever reason* - is true.
That said, let's look at what you did: you extracted those words of mine that allowed you to bash me and - as you like to say - "bring the point home". You deliberately crafted a text to attack me. This is trolling to say the least, and earns you my abuse report.
For this reason, I'm skipping any other argument you present in your post, except for a line that, along with the dirty trick above, shows the spirit with which you replied:
Quote:
If you would just stick to your own mean-spirited thinking and ignore for one time any double-standards [...]

This line accuses me of being "mean-spirited" and of having "double-standards" without any sound motivation whatsoever.

From now on, I'll take the advice of the TOS as regards trolls: "Ignore them, and report the posts immediately to an Amigaworld Team Member".

saimo

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 13:44:42
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@Kronos

Quote:
Finnaly putting AInc out of it's misery would probraly the greatest help Hyperion could get from anyone.

Actually I think freeing the OS from that Zombie-corp is essential for it to ever be more than an historic obscurity.

Assuming that it's true that AInc is a zombie-corp in misery, the point is: **what* Genesi can do to help and *how* Genesi can do it.
Yours in not an answer to the question. Your post, like lgn's and hatschi's shifts the focus on the conjectured internal problems of Ainc (and Hyperion), but in no way explains how Genesi can help.

saimo

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RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

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hatschi 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 14:17:52
#120 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@saimo

Quote:
You deliberately crafted a text to attack me. This is trolling to say the least, and earns you my abuse report.
For this reason, I'm skipping any other argument you present in your post,


Oh boy, I should really stop trying to discuss with you. Please calm down.

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