@stew

Quote:

So you would say they did help, (however small that help was) despite knowing the problems between Hyperion and AInc. and saying they wouldn't do any port without first getting a license. That is pretty much what I thought all along and got grief for it.

(emphasis added)
That's exactly what they did. They did not do the port (see all the previous replies you got).

Quote:

Why not just say the changed their minds?

Because, since they stuck to what they always said, they did not.

saimo

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RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@saimo

OK I conceed, they did not DO the port, they just Helped with the port. Makes all the difference to some I guess. I wonder what the meaning of is is? Did you not say Hyperion was not involved at all? Looks like others think Hyperion gave some (however slight) help. See links above

@stew

Why would the Friedens giving another coder a bit of technical help mean Hyperion had anything to do with it? The Friedens are not Hyperion they just work for them. it's like going into a virgin megastore and a shop assistant steps on your foot and you try to blame Richard Branson...

Edit: crap keyboard combined with crap typist...

Last edited by Severin on 29-May-2007 at 02:53 PM.

_________________
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Visit the Official OS4 Support Site for more help.

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@stew

Quote:

From Raffaele Remember that We are talking of Moana since 1 year ago.

Are you sure? If I remember well we are talking of Moana since september 2006, but I could be wrong...

And yes actually (may 2007) 9 months are passed...

Again People at Moana project launched us italians readers a lot of signals thru internet messages, but were difficult to interpretate it...

From the first time I have heard of Moana, upto first "Hurrah!" message, "it runs!", when we all believed it was stunning new powerful hardware, it passed about six months...

[EDIT]
And sure a message saying "It runs", that doesn't mean it is not afflicted by bugs!

I think that we will soon see a functioning version of Moana, but actually IMHO they are still debugging, and debugging, and debugging it...

And sure it is also necessary to build from scratch a tool to multiple boot Amiga and MacOS, and to copy AmigaOS in its own partition without wiping out macintosh partition!

[/EDIT]

Last edited by Raffaele on 29-May-2007 at 04:42 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 29-May-2007 at 04:38 PM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@stew

Quote:

stew wrote: @saimo OK I conceed, they did not DO the port, they just Helped with the port. Makes all the difference to some I guess. I wonder what the meaning of is is? Did you not say Hyperion was not involved at all? Looks like others think Hyperion gave some (however slight) help. See links above

AFAIK if you help to write a loader, without disclosing the entire structure of ALL SOURCE CODE, and just show to another programmer where are the locations of the OS that deal with hardware, they are just helping AND SURE NOT disclosing entire OS 4.0.

Remember that the intention was to ask permission to Amiga Inc. to licence MOANA and act with legal consensus.

(The IRC Chat just proofs this fact!!!)

They just shown to Bill Mc. Ewen a functioning Moana just to proof to him that they are serious persons, and do not claim false results.

They brought to Bill serious proofs that they are really persons capable to realize miracles!

But Bill exit from the scenes, without answering ACube...

From the document it seems he trucated his speech, without saying "YEAH!" or "NAY!" to any licence...

He just wiped out!

Maybe he not understood all the market opportunities of having AmigaOS running on macintoshes...

Maybe then he just wanted to get back AmigaOS because he is so greedy he didn't want only just ROYALTIES, but he wanted to get ALL THE CAKE!

Or maybe he find obnoxious that someone is still delivering for Amiga and with good results.

All passed steps of Amiga Inc. seemed to ignore AmigaOS and that they just preferred AmigaOS let it die slowly of starvation!

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote: @stew Quote: From Raffaele Remember that We are talking of Moana since 1 year ago. Are you sure? If I remember well we are talking of Moana since september 2006, but I could be wrong... [/EDIT]

The statement"Remember that We are talking of Moana since 1 year ago" was made by you. I did not make it clear that it was a quote, sorry posting from my cell phone.

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote: @stew Quote: stew wrote: @saimo OK I conceed, they did not DO the port, they just Helped with the port. Makes all the difference to some I guess. I wonder what the meaning of is is? Did you not say Hyperion was not involved at all? Looks like others think Hyperion gave some (however slight) help. See links above AFAIK if you help to write a loader, without disclosing the entire structure of ALL SOURCE CODE, and just show to another programmer where are the locations of the OS that deal with hardware, they are just helping AND SURE NOT disclosing entire OS 4.0. Remember that the intention was to ask permission to Amiga Inc. to licence MOANA and act with legal consensus. (The IRC Chat just proofs this fact!!!) They just shown to Bill Mc. Ewen a functioning Moana just to proof to him that they are serious persons, and do not claim false results. They brought to Bill serious proofs that they are really persons capable to realize miracles! But Bill exit from the scenes, without answering ACube... From the document it seems he trucated his speech, without saying "YEAH!" or "NAY!" to any licence... He just wiped out! Maybe he not understood all the market opportunities of having AmigaOS running on macintoshes... Maybe then he just wanted to get back AmigaOS because he is so greedy he didn't want only just ROYALTIES, but he wanted to get ALL THE CAKE! Or maybe he find obnoxious that someone is still delivering for Amiga and with good results. All passed steps of Amiga Inc. seemed to ignore AmigaOS and that they just preferred AmigaOS let it die slowly of starvation!

Pehape Bill wiped out because he found the sources that he thought he had bought back were given to somone for use without his approval. That is why the injunction. Now if he is justified in his belief is a matter for the court. I don't think any understood the brother statements in the past as we will not do the port to the mac but will help. I also see a difference of opinion as to the involvement of Hyperion, you posted that they helped while ssaimo posted that they did not. I also am curious as to where the documentation for the mac came from as the Friedens said those would have to be obtained. Why not out with the whole truth. ACube comes up with an idea for porting OS4 to the mac. They ask the Friedens (and Hyperion also possibily) for alittle advice. The brothers descide to chage their minds about a port to the mac and help. The only bad thing to me is they knew the AInc stand on the sources and buyback at the time, of course they may not have relayed this info to ACube.

@stew

Quote:

OK I conceed, they did not DO the port, they just Helped with the port. Makes all the difference to some I guess.

You first "concede", but then you waste no time to suggest that "doing" and "helping" may make no difference. Well, there is a huge difference between porting and offering "consulence" (see page 31 of the chat transcript between McEwen and Morocutti) - and no, I cannot bother to explain the obvious.

Quote:

I wonder what the meaning of is is?

Meaning of what? Consulence?

Quote:

Did you not say Hyperion was not involved at all?

No. Never. Feel free to review my posts here (the only ones I made on the subject) - they are few and short, so it will not take much.

Quote:

Looks like others think Hyperion gave some (however slight) help. See links above

In this reply of mine to you I have explicitly acknowledged the help by mentioning the most and only authoritative source we have about the matter - more precisely, I refer to this part:
Quote:

as said in the chat transcript (IIRC) [...], the Frieden brothers only provided (a minimal) technical support

I don't know if it is because you either do not read, or soon forget, or do not understand, or purposefully ignore what I write, but your statement makes it look like *I* have tried to state and support an evident false, which is absolutely and evidently not the case. Well, this is rather unfair and makes me feel sick, so in future do not expect me to repeat the same things over and over again just to see them twisted and ignored at will.

saimo

edit: grammar fixes

Last edited by saimo on 29-May-2007 at 09:42 PM.

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

Is there really anyone understanding this mess?

I mean, isn't it all very easy?

Amiga - holds the rights
Hyperion - does the OS
Manufacturer - approaches Amiga for a licence to use OS4
Manufacturer - works out port with Hyperion
Manufacturer sells hardware (or e.g. special MAC-SW) with OS4 bought from Hyperion
Amiga gets royalties from both Hyperion and Manufacturer
All happy.

Where is the problem with that?
I see only one showstopper here and that is Amiga itself,
at least no-one so far seem to have sucessfully aquired a licence.

@stew

Quote:

The statement"Remember that We are talking of Moana since 1 year ago" was made by you. I did not make it clear that it was a quote, sorry posting from my cell phone.

I heard of it a year ago...Yes, but on italian forums.

IMHO I suppose they found enough infomations on Macintosh hardware by studying the Linux distros running on it, and the old Open Darwin.

They have also italian OS4 developers who are skilled in the OS.

(More than 10 or 15% of work on OS4 is made by various italian developers AFAIK)

And maybe they contacted also some italian Apple developers and discovered that Moana was feasable.




«I can bring Amiga new life!

IT COULD BE DONEEEE!»



Then there come up a riddle of rumors.

At this stage it should began the help of Friedens to let the loader to match AmgaOS requests for hardware.



«Allow to introduce myself.

I am the third Frieden!»

(Sudden thunder noise!)



Again The first time we have some clues in Italy was after some months. I think that at that stage they becoming to have first large portions of code executable of the loader.



«IT'S ALIVE! IT IS ALIVEEE!»

http://www-bdnew.fnal.gov/hq/mcginnis/rfcourse/RF_Meas_Class/PPE.htm



And the first signals that it was done were after 6 months.



Amiga meets Mr Macintosh and they fall in love!

But again I think it is still a very buggy code, and that they need truly MORE, such as Amiga/Mac patitioning utility or better I hope they will adopt a Live distro CD...



Then it comes the CEO of Amiga who wants to pick its hands on all the project...



«A.B. Normal Brain!

Amiga Inc. Bill's Brain!

Here he is!!!»

Last edited by Raffaele on 30-May-2007 at 12:48 PM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele

Quote:

Are you sure? If I remember well we are talking of Moana since september 2006, but I could be wrong...

Who is "we"?
A developer asked Rogue on AW if he was even aware of the Moana project in March, 2006. It was underway well before then obviously. That would place it well ahead of the timeline concerning anything regarding SAM.
No time to read all the posts, but to be clear...
The project Moana and the posts by Adam about OS4 on Mac were two entirely different efforts.

#6

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This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
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@Shadowolf

Quote:

Shadowolf wrote: Is there really anyone understanding this mess? I mean, isn't it all very easy? Amiga - holds the rights Hyperion - does the OS Manufacturer - approaches Amiga for a licence to use OS4 Manufacturer - works out port with Hyperion Manufacturer sells hardware (or e.g. special MAC-SW) with OS4 bought from Hyperion Amiga gets royalties from both Hyperion and Manufacturer All happy. Where is the problem with that? I see only one showstopper here and that is Amiga itself, at least no-one so far seem to have sucessfully aquired a licence.

Hyperion doesnt want and need to pay royalties for OS4.0
Amiga doesnt want to release control over something they own and why should they.
Amiga cant give anyone a license for OS4 when Amiga doesnt have possesion of OS4.
Hyperion claims they can make deals with manufactures without Amiga getting any royalties from anyone.
And lastly and most importantly, Amiga wants and needs possesion of OS4 to combine it with AmigaDE and supposedly existing OS5 code to finalise OS5 and be able to market it.

Hyperion should have terminated the contract if they believe Amiga failed to comply.
Hyperion should have let a court decide whether Amiga(old) is insolvent and they now own rights.
Hyperion should have denied transfer of the contract.
Hyperion should have rejected the money paid for the buyback.
Hyperion should have denied that Amiga is in a position to execute buyback.
Hyperion should have let Amiga known that they believe OS4.0 is finished.

Hyperion did neither.

Unless Hyperion provides some very compelling argument why they didnt do any of that at a time that would have made sense, I strongly believe Hyperion is responsible for the further downfall of the market and the further loss of reputation for Amiga in the recent years.

Last edited by Ketzer on 30-May-2007 at 01:37 PM.

@Ketzer

Quote:

Hyperion claims they can make deals with manufactures without Amiga getting any royalties from anyone.

The A1 partners contract does make this look plausible. So long as it's "for the Amiga market", it would seem to fit the definitions. Sure, you could challenge that, in USA you can sue for just about anything you want to even without merit, but you won't necessarily win. The language, in my "I'm not a lawyer" opinion, does leave open this possibility. Wouldn't work so well for Mac hardware, as that was obviously not designed or marketed "for the Amiga market", but could work for Sam440 or ACK.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@_PAB_

Quote:

_PAB_ wrote: AmigaOS 4 has been ported and runs on MacMini:

Of course it does. Not that it can be sold or anything, though. That PPC is dead and it's too f-ing late anyway is another minor snag. :P


I hate being right.

_________________
Oh, bother.

@umisef

Quote:

Isn't it funny --- all the explanations of how x86 would be the death of things, because people could choose to buy and run a different OS

That explanation has always been completely laughable. In the last 15 years I'm sure 99% of all Amiga users picked up other machines.

Had they ported OS4 to x86 it would easily coexist with the other systems. People want HW and most don't care what it is.

All of which invites the anti-piracy and chipset arguments, both or which are equally without merit. It's better to target honest customers and simply limit the supported hardware.

@Ketzer

Quote:

Ketzer wrote: Amiga cant give anyone a license for OS4 when Amiga doesnt have possesion of OS4.

Sure they can. Getting it running on new hardware would require Hyperion's cooperation though.

Quote:

Hyperion claims they can make deals with manufactures without Amiga getting any royalties from anyone.

This seems to be a new arguement from them since they were sued. Before that they told everyone that they would need a license from Amiga Inc.

Hans

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@Ketzer

Quote:

Ketzer wrote: Hyperion doesnt want and need to pay royalties for OS4.0

I wonder where you heard that.

Quote:

Amiga doesnt want to release control over something they own and why should they. Amiga cant give anyone a license for OS4 when Amiga doesnt have possesion of OS4.

Amiga passed along control over OS4 when they licensed it to Hyperion.
What they own is not relevant as long as they get paid for having
accomplished nothing.
To me it looks like Amiga lost interest in AmigaOS some six years ago.

Quote:

Hyperion claims they can make deals with manufactures without Amiga getting any royalties from anyone.

Where is your proof for that?
On the contrary Hyperion repeatedly stated that they can't do a version
of OS4 for anything else than A1 and classics.
And even the latest documents that Amiga put into the case only
prove that Hyperion still is sticking strictly to their licence.

Quote:

And lastly and most importantly, Amiga wants and needs possesion of OS4 to combine it with AmigaDE and supposedly existing OS5 code to finalise OS5 and be able to market it.

And that is the point where I finally don't take you serious anymore.

How can anyone really assume that these claims are true?
It's not like Amiga had done anything over the last years.
Not even the DE was updated, wasn't it? Not sure, no interest though.

@Seehund

Quote:

That PPC is dead and it's too f-ing late anyway is another minor snag

The IBM-Sony-Toshiba cell processor
The IBM-Nintendo Broadway CPU
The IBM-Microsoft XENON CPU
New IBM Power6 4-6 GHZ CPU
New multighz low power AMCC core
Freescale new MPC5121e SOC multicore
Pasemi multicore multiGHZ low power CPUs

I think that you must check your concept of "to be dead"

Edit: added the name of nintendo wii PowerPC CPU

Last edited by Fransexy on 30-May-2007 at 05:17 PM.

_________________
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Make Amiga Great Again

@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: I think that you must check your concept of "to be dead"

I think that I from now on must always explicitly write that I'm referring to personal computers, even though I thought that this should have been obvious when the subject is AmigaOS.

(BTW, if you really want to split hairs, I wrote "P[ower]PC", which is only one branch of the Power Architecture tree, with Cell and others being yet other branches. That shortens your list of rather irrelevant examples even further. But never mind.)

_________________
Oh, bother.

@saimo
Quote:

In a nutshell, they did not lie.

lol! Go ahead and believe whatever you like Saimo. I don't think even you can deny that the Friedens are all about "we can't, we can't" while obviously SOMEBODY ELSE out there said "we can".

Maybe next time around (OS5? OS6?) the community should support whoever it was that said "we can".

_________________
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