Based on comments from Chris Liddell Microsoft's Chief Financial Office. 400 million USD of the 1.15 Billion USD write-off was used to cover costs relating to XBox 360s which couldn't be repaired and send out as refurbs.

So that must account for well over a million XBox 360 units before consumer sales actually hit 10 million, all this within a 18 month timespan and a large chunk of units bought less than half a year ago. IMO simply amazing!

@BrianK

The console was designed to be cheap to manufacture very quickly from after launch. Unfortunately that possibly resulted in the RRoD. If the 65nm process fixes that issue, then there is no cost increase. If they still have to add heatsinks and what-not then there is some minor added cost.

However, they just got class-action sued again this time in California for scratched discs. If they write-off future legal fees to the "legal department" then they can still claim profitability - I guess.

Also, with sales slowing, they have less units to fix. Software sales have been what's keeping the platform alive. An analyst recently predicted that the 360 may sell about as well as the original Xbox. That would not be good for MS. If that is the case, the 360 could still be a net loss.

How much !Live content do they need to push/sell to remain afloat in this industry. That does seem to be there ultimate goal. They moved towards this with the release of the Elite and the 120GB HDD.

edit for spelling case as cast

Last edited by Lou on 20-Jul-2007 at 07:35 PM.

Microsoft announced today revenue of $13.37 billion for the quarter ended June 30, 2007, a 13% increase over the same period of the prior year. The earnings met analysts' expectations while sales were slightly better than the target of $13.27 billion, according to Reuters Estimates...

this includes $1.1 billion loss in the quarter ended in June as a result of the extension of the Xbox 360 warranty...

The software giant said today it still aims for its Entertainment and Devices division to turn profitable in fiscal 2008, with a boost expected from the September release of Halo 3. ...

EDIT: Further info...

For Microsoft's fiscal year ending June 30 the division which includes the Xbox posted a $1.9 billion loss -- $1.2 billion of that was from the fourth quarter alone when Microsoft owned up to the Red Ring of Death issues. The division actually climbed 28% over the year and may even be profitable soon according to Microsoft entertainment division lead Robbie Bach,

Last edited by BrianK on 20-Jul-2007 at 02:51 PM.

In honour of Jeff Bell!

MikeB wrote:

Quote:

There are rumours that Microsoft is following a viral marketing strategy with regard to the extended warranty, signing up hundreds of accounts the past couple of months on message boards to steer discussions towards their prefered direction.

An interesting fact, Microsoft's Jeff Bell Corporate Vice President of Global Marketing has been found trolling anonymously on NeoGAF and this has been confirmed to be genuine by moderators.

Basically what happened Jeff was scanning NeoGAF threads and found a comment by a XBox 360 user called "Master Ninja" who publically criticized Jeff for his weak PR performances. Apparently Jeff got upset and then sends a PM to this user through a fresh account. His response: "And your contribution to society is....what?"

Well Jeff, just continue to sell those failure prone consoles as the best thing since sliced bread as your "contribution" to society. Feel free to PM me to discuss the matter.

Just to demonstrate Microsoft PR including even execs are scanning the gaming forums. IMO the viral marketing theories are becoming more likely.
http://www.thesixthaxis.com/microsofts_jeff_bell_crosses_the_line_news_74_tsa.aspx

Kim @ Microsoft on price cuts..

"WN: Wouldn't this be a great time, then, to announce an Xbox 360 price cut? Why no price cut at E3?

SK: I think July is a terrible time to announce a price cut. Forget about E3. There's no business that gets done. Consumers are not buying a lot of consoles in July, or in August for that matter. The bulk of the business gets done in the holiday, the last three months of the year. Spring is the other big "season." A price cut in July is very, very odd. So we don't feel any pressure to announce any price cut here because of what Sony did. Sony has their own problems and they're trying to address it in their own way. That's up to them. To announce a price cut eight months into the lifecycle of a console is pretty unusual. That to me signifies some concern.

What I will say is that like all hardware manufacturers, we're working hard to drive costs out of the system as much as possible. Because in the end, we all want to get to the mass-market price points as fast as we can."


KIM @ MIcrosoft's Japan strategy
"WN: In certain territories, Microsoft is heading towards probably a shared market leadership with Nintendo, hitting different groups. But in Japan, Xbox 360 has had the same problems, it hasn't even sold as much as the original Xbox at this point. Tell me more about the strategy going forward.

SK: We're going to keep pounding away, Chris. Japan's an important market, right? And I will tell you this. I still am a believer in our ability to do well in Japan. We're not going to win in Japan. We know that. That was never our goal, this generation, to win in Japan. We can win this generation without winning Japan. But we can do well in Japan. Now that's going to take a long time.

The investments we've made in first-party, with [Hironobu] Sakaguchi-san, that's starting to pay off. Where we're really starting to see it is with third-party Japanese publishers. The fact that we have Resident Evil on Xbox 360, okay, when it's never been on an Xbox platform before? Every major Japanese publisher is creating and publishing titles for Xbox 360. And that wasn't the case with the original Xbox
"

@jtsiren

Quote:

1) Will PS3 be the technically superior platform? (Will there be constant difference to PS3's favor on releases.)

I would say yes and no, obviously multi-platform 360/PS3 games will not get the most out of Blu-Ray's storage advantage, the SPE's processing advantage and the PS3's default harddrive advantage. Some Xbox 360 versions may well be slightly better than the PS3 version depending on the priorities of the developing companies. I do think developers will start to put more effort into PS3 versions, as with future exclusive game releases they would incompetent (for example like was the case with the PS3 version of FEAR, which was being criticized for being technologically well inferior compared to the port of Rainbow Six Vegas and PS3 launch title Resistance Fall of Man).

@jtsiren

Quote:

Exclusives are still not that many, published titles truly proving a significant performance difference remain elusive. Good games will come - I don't know how many, but they will come.

I think the upcoming high profile PS3 exclusives clearly outnumber those coming to the XBox 360. Also there seems to be far more game varierty with regard to these upcoming exclusives for the PS3.

Killzone 2, Warhawk, R&C future, Singstar, Eye of Judgement, EyeDentify, LittleBigPlanet, Home, Uncharted, Heavenly Sword. Folkslore, Lair, WarDevil, Afrika, Eight days, The Getaway, The agency, White Knight Story, new Ape Escape, new WipeOut, new God of War, new Grand Turismo, new Hot Shots Golf, new Monster Hunter, new Final Fantasy, new Metal Gear Solid, new Tekken, new Shadow of the Colossus, new Socom, new Time Crisis, new Twisted Metal, etc.

IMO this incomplete PS3 exlusives list, games currently under development, demonstrates a great varierty of gameplay amongst high profile PS3 games.

The bulk of future XBox 360 games are also coming to the PS3, high profile exceptions due to Microsoft buying Bungie, LionHead, Rare, etc.

Halo 3, Halo Wars, Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Fable 2, Banjo-Kazooie 3, PGR4 and Mass Effect.

@BrianK

Quote:

As for the PS3 vs 360. I own them both and prefer the later but won't go into why as this thread isn't a comparision but one of 360 issues and their handling. But suffice to say I think Sony will eventually fix the issues relating to why I prefer the 360.

Compared to my own personal likes and dislikes of the two systems I agree that Sony will eventually smoothen out the kinks that benefit Xbox 360 today in comparison. I also believe Microsoft will fix the quality issues that hinder them, if nothing more than just by a later, more reliable release version (say, 65nm).

In the end, I assume the playing field will be level enough (both consoles working fine with solid releases under their belt, rumble and online functions equal etc.) for us to truly see which console is delivering the superior end-result technically and OTOH which has the best games of the generation and which can continue to innovate and introduce new features to keep ahead of the competition.

It could be a tie or it could be that either system consistently produces superior results - if and when this happens, I'm quite sure we will be able to tell which one.

Last edited by jtsiren on 19-Jul-2007 at 10:37 AM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

I won't speak for BrianK, I already admitted he was off-topic as well. He just doesn't register as high on my radar for personal reasons and he doesn't post flamboyant screenshot extravaganzas that get the attention... I think BrianK is overall a bit more sympathetic to Microsoft/Xbox 360 than I am, but that is just my perception. OTOH, I believe he just like myself actually owns both of these systems - something which can't be said of, say, yourself.

Thanks Jtsiren. As a note for myself my attempts were to compare Microsoft's handling on it's issues similar to the industry as a whole. I've fully ascribed ownership to Microsoft issues but in using past examples of problems with other consoles and handling I think Microsoft isn't that far out of the industry norm and the industry itself needs to improve.

As for the PS3 vs 360. I own them both and prefer the later but won't go into why as this thread isn't a comparision but one of 360 issues and their handling. But suffice to say I think Sony will eventually fix the issues relating to why I prefer the 360.

@MikeB

Quote:

To make myself clear yet again, what I like the most about the PS3 is the cell processor. That this device is branded Sony or Playstation with all the additional bells and whistles attached are just excellent bonuses to me.

Fair enough. You seem to be evangelizing that Cell with the bells and whistles then.

It is a nice machine no doubt. Too bad not quiet enough for media center use for myself and I still want that rumble - I'm willing to shell out some serious cash for that accessory, so how about it Sony? I've even used the memory card/photo show once. Really, it is a nice package and I wouldn't want to downplay that a bit. It was expensive and I haven't played on it that much, but I don't regret buying it - I can see it having potential. Purely for gaming Xbox 360 has some benefits like the IMHO better controller, Live is good etc. - if they can fix the quality problems and keep churning out excellent games, and Sony can continue on an upswing, we'll have a solid fight between PS3 and Xbox 360.

Quote:

I acknowledge that I seem to have had a far more positive perspectives on the PS3 than most other people had these last couple of months. But the general opinions with regard to he PS3 seem to be shifting slowly.

I'd probably say you have more than just "far more positive perspectives", but you know my opinion and I'll leave it at that. As for the general opinion on PS3:

I guess it depends on the opinion. Most knew that the lack of games would only be temporary (anyone saying otherwise was clearly just biased) - even now, that lack still pretty much remains and mostly the promise is in future games. Exclusives are still not that many, published titles truly proving a significant performance difference remain elusive. Good games will come - I don't know how many, but they will come.

As the games come, this problem is lessened and as new games emerge we'll also be able to gather a wide range of commentary on performance questions - maybe we'll then finally get to answer that question if either console is significantly more powerful or not too. The opinions on that have certainly flattened somewhat since the poor launch titles, but what I'm awaiting now is to see how future major exclusive hits compare technically. If, say, PS3 could continually produce at 1080p what Xbox 360 can only do at 720p, I can take a hint. So far we have a mixed bag of results favoring both systems here and there. As you may remember I never said I knew which was more powerful, just that I don't know which is. I doubt it is Wii though, so either way I'll own the winner.

What is still a complete mystery is the question of future market penetration. PS3 has not been doing so well, the Wii has. OTOH, Xbox 360 has suffered from its own worries and Wii will overtake it soon. What the price changes that have/may/will happen do, time will tell. If Xbox 360 stalls due to major quality concerns, PS3 gets a boots from the clearout sale of 60 GB, who knows what will happen. But if Xbox 360 drops in price too, new 65nm models get out with some much needed PR, all bets are off... Or if Xbox 360 continues at a normal pace, PS3 gets only a temporary fix from the price drop we could land somewhere in the middle. Wii could also stall if concerns about its longevity prove to be right, but I don't see that happening this year in any case.

Going back to my theory and discussion here earlier this year that I might not get a PS3 at all, I think I would have done well by at least waiting on the purchase. But realizing how some exclusives might have in any case, no matter which console is technically superior, warranted getting a PS3 down the line I doubt I would have gone the entire generation without one. I also doubt that I'd ever replace Xbox 360 with a PS3 as was my original pre-both-launches plan, Microsoft would probably have to mess up their new follow-up on the quality issues royally and exclusive games selection dry up for that to happen.

I think my questions concerning the success of PS3 are like this - in personal priority order:

1) Will PS3 be the technically superior platform? (Will there be constant difference to PS3's favor on releases.)

2) Will PS3 have huge exclusive games that, even if it weren't always superior technically, warrant getting one? (I got PS2 for these exclusives even though technically they seemed inferior to what was available on the Xbox 1. One of those exclusives BTW was Ratchet, which I completed too...)

3) Where will PS3 rank in the console sales charts at the end-of-line for Wii/Xbox 360, which I presume comes before PS3? (I don't really care for how much longer after end of the rest of the generation Sony goes on, I'm mostly interested in the latest and greatest.)

4) Will PS3 be a successful successor to PS2? (This would require major market dominance.)

This will get answered in due time and my opinion of PS3 will continue to form accordingly. Don't worry, I have a almost 700 EUR investment (more with games) there that warrants my attention and desire to see it do well.

For Xbox 360 I see these critical issues, just a quick list on top of the head:

1) How and when will the quality issues be finally resolved?

2) Will Xbox 360 continue to provide technically at-level or better results than PS3?

3) Will the market continue to see the Xbox 360 as a leader and will the exclusives etc. reflect on this?

Well, there, you got me into comparing consoles or at least speculating on what I consider important. Feel free to respond, but I'll try to refrain from a rebuttal to keep this sub-thread to a minimum. Just wanted to clarify how I see things for better understanding.

Last edited by jtsiren on 19-Jul-2007 at 12:09 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 19-Jul-2007 at 12:06 AM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

I still don't know which console is more powerful either, time will tell. If PS3 one day emerges as the most formidable gaming console (say, by quality and tech of its games) of its generation, I will be here agreeing to that.

First second generation PS3 game:
http://www.gametrailers.com/game/4572.html

Looks like a high definition Pixar film, the cutscenes as well as the ingame sections! IMO the technology gap will become quite evident.

But most importantly the PS3 is actually a high quality product, IMO it's only beneficial the much more sturdy device is also the way more powerful one.

@jtsiren

Quote:

I continue to feel you are here to evangelize PS3

To make myself clear yet again, what I like the most about the PS3 is the cell processor. That this device is branded Sony or Playstation with all the additional bells and whistles attached are just excellent bonuses to me.

Quote:

Anyway, pot kettle black seems to suggest you acknowledge you are a Sony apologist in return?

I acknowledge that I seem to have had a far more positive perspectives on the PS3 than most other people had these last couple of months. But the general opinions with regard to he PS3 seem to be shifting slowly.

However please notice I wasn't that much interested in the XBox 360 to begin with, at least not before the system was dragged into PS3 topics and used as ammunition by 360 fans against the PS3. After researching the many claims, I would say about 95% of claims have been proven to be completely bogus and yes I would like the PS3 haters to be proven wrong and their bias be underlined.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Jul-2007 at 10:32 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

1) My replies were replies. I only tried to add info which may be of interest in reply to some comments, off topic or not.

I continue to feel you are here to evangelize PS3 (one way of which is to discredit Xbox 360 too), but that is just my feeling.

But I still think this thread serves a purpose because the issue IS legitimate. I've always said so - but because it is a legitimate issue I have interest in keeping the thread useful.

You'd probably agree unless this thread was another veiled attempt to continue the console debate.

Quote:

2) Pot Kettle Black, You really should reread your or for example BrianK's postings, I think your reactions show every sign of Microsoft apologism.

I won't speak for BrianK, I already admitted he was off-topic as well. He just doesn't register as high on my radar for personal reasons and he doesn't post flamboyant screenshot extravaganzas that get the attention... I think BrianK is overall a bit more sympathetic to Microsoft/Xbox 360 than I am, but that is just my perception. OTOH, I believe he just like myself actually owns both of these systems - something which can't be said of, say, yourself.

You think my reactions "show every sign of Microsoft apologism"? Try to re-read some of the comments I've made in this thread, I've used extremely harsh arguments against Microsoft and continue to hold them responsible for what they are (or are not) doing. I'm no Microsoft fanboy. I differ in my approach as to what I see reasonable to expect of Microsoft (I don't see full refund of everything for one broken console as such). If I'd see you treat Sony with the same balanced approach I think I have used in this thread for Microsoft, I'd have no beef with you.

Anyway, pot kettle black seems to suggest you acknowledge you are a Sony apologist in return?

Quote:

3) Usually the original poster complains if his thread is dragged off topic. I didn't, only with regard to resorting to personal attacks I will complain, like I have.

Anyone can complain about threads staying on topic IMHO and many frequently do, I disagree with the notion that only the original poster usually does so. I do acknowledge that you'd probably like to use this thread to again evangelize PS3, so of course you wouldn't object to, say, in the same message beating Xbox 360 over the head with quality concerns and in the next paragraph showing some PS3 screenshots...

Last edited by jtsiren on 18-Jul-2007 at 09:30 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

No moral high ground for you I'm afraid. You have been a major contributor as well with regard to participating in dragging threads off topic, but IMO diverting discussions towards personal issues is more malicious than just your every day side discussions, which happens is almost any lenghty thread.

Fair enough, I do tend to look at the personal issues and they are off-topic too. As for taking this thread off-topic to PS3 and whatnot, I already admitted many pages ago having done so as well. It is easy to get swayed off-topic in the heat of the moment and I have done my bit to steer the thread back on topic as well, I think you can at least admit that much.

I still think what you are doing is in a league of its own - you really continue to be a PS3 evangelist - I have found out many threads ago that I can probably never get to see you agree with that, but this said just so you understand my view. I am nobody's evangelist (well, at least not Microsoft's or Sony's), I'm not here hyping any product like you are. I'm interested in balanced discussion whether or not you want to believe it, not furthering "my point of view" like you seem to.

Of course I have my biases and have my opinion in several issues on whom I'd like to see "win" or whatever, and this does affect my posting, but I do try to discuss issues on their merits.

Quote:

Anyway interesting facts regarding XBox 360 related Microsoft execs, Robby Bach sold well over 6 miilion USD Microsoft stock just ahead of announcing to shareholders that there are mass failings with regard to XBox 360 hardware. Now the main spokesman Peter Moore just resigned!

These are certainly topical issues, this kind of tidbits are why this thread IMHO would serve more purpose free of console debates and the like. This is topical and useful information.

Hard to tell if Moore quitting had anything to do with anything, since he apparently has a new job so it doesn't seem necessarily this is related to the Xbox 360 issue. It might, of course, but I doubt Peter Moore was held responsible by the company - if head chopping was taking place that person would have been someone else. A more realistic reason, if we assume it had anything to do with this, would probably be that Moore was personally frustrated to work as a spokesman for a product that has this lousy reliability record. OTOH, it might well just be he wanted a new job for the usual reasons. Whatever the reasoning, I think this certainly has something to do with Peter Moore's decision:

Gamespot:
Quote:

Last but not least, later in the day an EA SEC filing revealed Moore's generous salary package, which includes a $1.5 million signing bonus.

As for your funny-as-usual picture, you have another for Kutaragi? Being the balanced sort of chap I'm sure you do...

And just to please you Mike, a little PS3 love:



I found a sole Amazon.com dealer that ships these to Europe and bought one. Pretty nice! Useful for stacking Xbox 360 and PS3, works as I hoped it would.

Think what you will, but it is all about the entertainment for me. I haven't chosen a side, I chose two sides (well, four if you consider PSP and PS2 too) and the third continues to tempt me.

A huge number of people agree: Xbox 360 has a lousy quality record, but greatest games at this time. The latter is the reason I continue to want to have one, the former is a real pain in the but, but that still doesn't change the fact where the gaming currently is. I still don't know which console is more powerful either, time will tell. If PS3 one day emerges as the most formidable gaming console (say, by quality and tech of its games) of its generation, I will be here agreeing to that.

Until then, I'm watching, playing on my consoles and letting the events dictate the end-result.

@Lou

Shane Kim, vice president of Microsoft Game Studios, has revealed that the company is working to lower the price of the Xbox 360.

Afterall if they're making $$ per console they can do this but obviously they want to hit profitability next year if possible.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @MikeB Quote: Now the main spokesman Peter Moore just resigned! Moore is sticking around he's heading up EA. Hopefully that's good and will put some creativity and originality into EA's game play. EA does own sports. The conspiracy theoriest are already hard at work theorizing that EA will be supporting the #1 and #2 selling consoles for future sports games. Lending a slight death strike to #3. We've all seen Moore's love for the Wii and know well his love for the 360. Conversly the head of EA is taking Moore's job. General impression on this is bad for the 360 because of EA's lack of creativity. But, again this is a spokesman's job. Likely Kim and Allard are to be still involved.

For a $1.5 MILLION signing bonus, I'd quit being just about anything.

Correction - a former head of EA, who started Distinctive Software is replacing him, not the current head.

Like I said before, where he goes - hardware bombs. Luckily EA has no hardware to speak of. EA is on the right track with software and a new focus on creativity. Peter Moore is a good frontman. People like him. He's had some bad luck with hardware though. I think between this and Robbie Bach, the sinking ship picture MikeB posted is pretty relevant.

With stagnating sales, Microsoft needs to do a "value-add" of their own. For instance, they will probably make the HALO edition 360, the new core. By that, I mean that is should be $300, use 65nm tech and have the HDMI port. The Elite should be the new Premium. Discount the current core to $200 to liquidate inventory (ala Sony's US 60GB model) and really compete with the Wii.

@MikeB

Quote:

Now the main spokesman Peter Moore just resigned!

Moore is sticking around he's heading up EA. Hopefully that's good and will put some creativity and originality into EA's game play. EA does own sports. The conspiracy theoriest are already hard at work theorizing that EA will be supporting the #1 and #2 selling consoles for future sports games. Lending a slight death strike to #3. We've all seen Moore's love for the Wii and know well his love for the 360.

Conversly the head of EA is taking Moore's job. General impression on this is bad for the 360 because of EA's lack of creativity. But, again this is a spokesman's job. Likely Kim and Allard are to be still involved.

Last edited by BrianK on 18-Jul-2007 at 04:48 AM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

In any case, the topic itself - Xbox 360's breaking down - should be juicy enough. PS3 is not and never was the topic of this thread and we just don't want it to turn into another MikeB monologue about PS3 screenshots and news. If he wants to start one more of those

1) My replies were replies. I only tried to add info which may be of interest in reply to some comments, off topic or not.
2) Pot Kettle Black, You really should reread your or for example BrianK's postings, I think your reactions show every sign of Microsoft apologism.
3) Usually the original poster complains if his thread is dragged off topic. I didn't, only with regard to resorting to personal attacks I will complain, like I have.

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Jul-2007 at 11:04 PM.

@jtsiren

No moral high ground for you I'm afraid. You have been a major contributor as well with regard to participating in dragging threads off topic, but IMO diverting discussions towards personal issues is more malicious than just your every day side discussions, which happens is almost any lenghty thread.

Anyway interesting facts regarding XBox 360 related Microsoft execs, Robby Bach sold well over 6 miilion USD Microsoft stock just ahead of announcing to shareholders that there are mass failings with regard to XBox 360 hardware. Now the main spokesman Peter Moore just resigned!