@MikeB

Quote:

Just underlining I am not standing alone with regard to my perspectives:

I can see that, but it would be so much more beneficial when you go to such lengths to gather information on this matter to provide a balanced outlook on the different facets of this issue and the public reaction instead of just trying to strengthen your point of view/agenda.

This is an interesting, topical and relevant topic (well, maybe not relevant at AW.net but still). It deserves inspection for sure. But if you are really roaming those forums and comments threads, try to provide a wider perspective.

I could of course counter by providing examples of my own, but I'd personally prefer to stick to discussing mostly the facts/speculation about facts in this case instead of user reaction (although the latter is interesting and relevant too), so I haven't really collected any comments - even though I have read many, many threads in the past days with overwhelming amount of positive comments too.

@MikeB

Quote:

Certainly disc read errors are quite common, probably even more so than was the case with the PS2 and isn't covered by extended warranty:

Going back to analyzing the issues, here is what I currently guess is going on with the DVD drive:

There seems to be two separate issues. Possible disc scratching when moving the console has been documented as at least some the drives don't have padding to protect against that sort of thing - that is certainly a mechanical thing that should be fixed and may differ from Xbox 360 revision to another. In the up-right position the console may be more susceptible to this, I don't know.

The other thing are these drive failures that seem to creep up people in time and may also result in the ring of death eventually - those would seem, just a guess, to be related to the GPU overheating (for which the motherboard warping etc. are to blame also usually, I guess). The GPU is located beneath the DVD drive and overheating there might eventually ruin the DVD drive as well.

Microsoft probably shouldn't have placed that GPU under the DVD drive, instead the right side of the console should have been dedicated to CPU/GPU and their heat control while the DVD drive would have been on the left side without any major heat producers under it... Just a guess again, but with what we know this would seem to make sense.

I'm no expert of course.

@BrianK

Quote:

This still begs the questions though if he didn't do anything inappropriate

According to the interview he didn't and he seems to be a huge fan of the games, so it seems unlikely he wants to be many months without a console and takes reasonable care of the device.

Quote:

Good question depending on the source up to 70% of new systems do not have overheating issues.

Even assuming that over the years, failure rates stay constant at 33% per year for new units, well over 85% of the consoles would have died at least once within a 5 year period. IMO this is unacceptable. The problems may however get worse over the years (due to wearing or more demanding games), but some consoles may never die simply because they aren't being played enough. I know someone who hasn't played with her Xbox 360 for months.

Survey results are getting worse:

Live Stats & Results

Quote:

Quote: Of the 5626 submissions: 1950 (34.66%) say they have NOT had a console fail 2320 (41.24%) say they've had one console fail 1356 (24.10%) say they've had more than one console fail Overall 3676 (65.34%) of submissions claim to have experienced Xbox 360 hardware failure 2251 (40.01%) submissions purchased their first Xbox 360 before January '06 Of these 2251 submissions: 1636 (72.68%) claim their Xbox 360 broke 615 (27.32%) say their Xbox 360 is still going strong The 3676 submissions citing problems collectively claim a total of 6088 broken Xbox 360s Survey stats are getting worse, it may attract people with problems, but if those who already submitted their entry would be able to change their vote once they do experience problems the results may even be worse. Of the 5966 submissions: 2027 (33.98%) say they have NOT had a console fail 2482 (41.60%) say they've had one console fail 1457 (24.42%) say they've had more than one console fail Overall 3939 (66.02%) of submissions claim to have experienced Xbox 360 hardware failure 2388 (40.03%) submissions purchased their first Xbox 360 before January '06 Of these 2388 submissions: 1747 (73.16%) claim their Xbox 360 broke 641 (26.84%) say their Xbox 360 is still going strong The 3939 submissions citing problems collectively claim a total of 6505 broken Xbox 360s

Of the 6297 submissions:
2097 (33.30%) say they have NOT had a console fail
2649 (42.07%) say they've had one console fail
1551 (24.63%) say they've had more than one console fail

Overall 4200 (66.70%) of submissions claim to have experienced Xbox 360 hardware failure

2496 (39.64%) submissions purchased their first Xbox 360 before January '06
Of these 2496 submissions:
1838 (73.64%) claim their Xbox 360 broke
658 (26.36%) say their Xbox 360 is still going strong

The 4200 submissions citing problems collectively claim a total of 6916 broken Xbox 360s

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2007 at 10:17 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2007 at 09:45 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2007 at 09:44 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2007 at 09:41 PM.

@MikeBin

Quote:

It's harder to get rid of the console the more money you got invested into the platform with game and accessory purchases Not just the ones which have horror stories to tell, but everyone who thinks they were misled by Microsoft regarding the reliability of the console.

Nice thought and completely disagree with you. Companies shouldn't be held hostage because some one has a bug in their butt that their unit might perhaps fail. Companies should be held liable if there's a problem and Micrsoft has rightly so extended their commitment. No electonics company offers unlimited, no questions asked returns and they shouldn't. What would happen under your plan in 10 years everyone just decides to make Microsoft buy their console because it may fail in year 11?

Micrsoft was right to extend warranties and should find and eliminate the 3 ring issue or at least get it into industry accepted norms. What I'd like to see is Microsoft come out with some #s on say rates in 2005, 2006, 2007 and let us see if their % return/repaired are improving. If they are then continue on. (of course I wouldn't expect certain people to believe them no matter what.)

@MikeB

Quote:

He recorded this conversation for you to listen to, because of people like you questioning his honesty.

With 10M consoles in hands it's not hard to believe that A person received 11 bad ones. Statistical outliers do infrequently exist. This still begs the questions though if he didn't do anything inappropriate, which is something we'd never truly find out.

Quote:

they ONLY revised its warranty becuase the news hit the media

Again another good point on the issue but this point equally applies to every manufacture in the industry. Other consoles with flaws only 'collapsed' after consumer and media pressure. One could ascribe this to how capitalism should work.

Quote:

Is it a systemic design flaw?

Good question depending on the source up to 70% of new systems do not have overheating issues. The problem is we'll never likely get this sort of answer. Not that it really matters as long as the problems are fixed long term. Extending the warranty to cover such unforseen problems before launch is a very appropriate solution.

Quote:

Give us all the HDMI technology

He's amusing!

And of course in any issue the one's ####ed off are always louder then those who are happy.. Afterall the other 70% of us with working 360s are too busy playing them to post how great they are. Those with broken ones get to stew and be more ####ed. Simple human nature.

@jtsiren

Quote:

(and possible some DVD issues)

Certainly disc read errors are quite common, probably even more so than was the case with the PS2 and isn't covered by extended warranty:

Some current quotes from XBox.com:

"This hasn't started until recently, but my 360 will suddenly decide to stop reading my game discs. All my games are in perfect condition. I hae talked to a few friends and random people on Live that have said theirs are doing the same thing. Does anyone know what is up with this, or how to fix it? I have had my 360 since launch and always had an intercooler on it since they came out."

User reply:

"Call support and send it in. I had 2 with the same problem. New warranty won't cover it so you have to fork over $140 to repair it, but if you REALLY complain you might get it for half."

"So the other day I put in RSV, I get the message on the screen: "To Play this game, insert it into a XBOX 360 Console"

I laughed for a minute, because it's the 360 that's giving me this error message. I take the game out and put in GRAW 2, same message, I put RSV back in, and it loads.

Then yesterday.... loaded RSV, it froze, rebooted xbox, it froze at the 360 Splash Screen, rebooted........3 rings of death.

Tried all troubleshooting steps, called MS, tried troubleshooting steps again, still dead. have to send my box into MS and get it fixed or a new one.



Anyone else have this issue?"

User reactions:

1) "MEEE :( i just bought shadowrun too. im sad. im on the phone with support as im writing this. first it said it cant read my games in 10 different languages, i turned it off.. then back on... then three red lights... i unplug i completely and THERES SMOKE IN THE BACK!! i should say i burned my hand and make a lawsuit. haha jk. i could claim an elite for pain and suffering :). but yea... i'd like to hear about other people with the same problem... so reply!"

2) "My 360 has been doing this for about 3 months now. sometimes when i turn it on it will load right away, but other times it will take me over 10 minutes to read the disc and not give me that "please insert game into a 360" crap. It does it to all my games new and old. My buddy had it happen and his just quit reading it altogether. they told him his dvd drive went out."

3) "same here, my xbox 360 has been giving me the same grief. i took it completely apart one night, cleaned it and everything and still nothing. i had call support and they told me my drive is in the process of dieing and that i should send it in. So i sent it in, and i waiting to see if they fix it."

4) "I know how it feels. Mine started doing that like once in a while and then one day it just died on me. The Xbox would act like if there was no disc in it or give me the message to put it in a 360 console. So i called support and we tried everything. Nothing worked, it would'nt even play my dvds. So just today i sent it to Repair... Oh and not to mention this is like my fourth of fifth Xbox!!!!"

Really considering all the problems, I still think a full refund for people not wanting to ever go through such issues would be justified. It's harder to get rid of the console the more money you got invested into the platform with game and accessory purchases, Not just the ones which have horror stories to tell, but everyone who thinks they were misled by Microsoft regarding the reliability of the console.

@MikeB

Keep the balanced quotes coming...

As for the latter well-formed message you quoted, I actually very much agree with his frustration, if not his style of writing. It is one thing Xbox 360 has a vulnerability to over-heating due to some design/structural issues we assume. This causes enough trouble as is. But their repair system is certainly flawed, they keep shipping out broken goods - and seeing the reports those with multiple, multiple failures usually have had more than one machine dead on arrival. That tells us nothing about the actual quality of the console, but an awful lot about the quality of Microsoft's repairs.

They said some serious policy changes were going to be put in place, I guess it refers to this and I hope this gets corrected as soon as possible, since this is completely unnecessary (if difficult perhaps due to the volume)... the original design flaw is harder to fix for sure, but the only reason that comes to my mind for shipping out poorly repaired machines that won't work is a poor repair process and that is now just adding to the Xbox 360's reputation - and very much unnecessarily so.

Microsoft obviously has two separate (but connected) areas to fix: a) fix the overheating problems that cause the red ring of death (and possible some DVD issues) and b) fix the repair process so that people get solidly repaired machines back that are sturdier than what they sent in, not the other way around.

Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Jul-2007 at 08:27 PM.

Interesting from XBox.com:

"The biggest technical issue is Microsoft not fully backing up the warranty agreement. The old information stated that your 360 would be fixed within 5 days of them getting the console they have had mine for 5 weeks. Mind you that they had just changed the warranty info on Thursday so there is no excuse for not going by the old standards that they set prior to Thursday on the 360's they have recieved. Peter Moore can dance around this issue all he wants but nothing will change, sure this sounds like a good thing but they could not even implent the last warranty. Sony and their PS3 maybe the trash of the industry, but atleast the are able to play the games they bought. I challange anybody to correct this statement, if I am wrong point it out. All Microsoft reps welcome I would like some answers. I am a fanboy and loyal customer, but I feel used.

From NeoGAF:

"MS CAN DIE DIE DIE DIE

I WENT A MONTH WITHOUT MY SYSTEM AND TODAY I GET A ****ING REFURB MAN THATS BROKEN!

THE DAMN F-ING DISC TRAY WONT CLOSE AND MY THE SYSTEM WONT SPIT OUT THE COLOR RED,EVERYTHING IS YELLOW AND BLUE,BUT THE GOD DAMN DISC TRAY OPENS WHEN I TURN THE SYSTEM ON,HAS NO OPTION TO CLOSE IT AND WHEN I DO PUT A GAME IN IT SPITS THE GAME BACK OUT.

I'M TEMPTED TO TAKE A HAMMER TO IT!


ok enough yelling,this is absurd.Now I have to call them again and wait for another coffin and go another damn month without one.

This is a nightmare :("

@MikeB

Quote:

Feel free to point me towards better quotes from XBox.com hardware forum: http://forums.xbox.com/281/ShowForum.aspx

It was never about better. I am just saying that the response to this warranty extension has also been very positive - at times more positive than I would personally give Microsoft credit for, but the opinions vary. Just wanted to add that, because your quotes painted a bit one-sided picture.

I agree with much of what was quoted. That wasn't my point, just to mention what was NOT quoted.

Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Jul-2007 at 08:12 PM.

@jtsiren

Just underlining I am not standing alone with regard to my perspectives:

IMO another interesting comment:

"Thank all you guys for posting about your troubles here and on my website.

I am sure, we had a LOT to do with the new 1 year warranty, and this new 3 year warranty.

But the fight is not over.

We need Microsoft to do the following:

* Find a new supplier for the defective DVD roms.
Upgrade all of us to the new DVD drives that are dependable.
* Find a solution to the heat problem, 3 red lights of death, then Upgrade all of our 360s to the new technology.
* Give us all the HDMI technology for our work in testing their product for them since November 2005 when they Hurridly released the NOT fully tested product on the unsuspecting public.

Our voices do count, if we work collectively.

Thank you for what ever you did to help get the 3 year warranty."

Feel free to point me towards better quotes from XBox.com hardware forum:
http://forums.xbox.com/281/ShowForum.aspx

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2007 at 08:09 PM.

@MikeB

Thank you for that balanced selection of quoting. There are tons of people also appreciating the move whole-heartedly (more so than I personally do or would).

Not that the quotes don't make valid points - for example, I agree that the warranty extension is just a first step, they need to also fix this for good.

Some further reading from Microsoft's mouth:

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/07/06/microsofts-red-ring-warranty-conference-call-transcribed/

BTW, note the 3 year warranty only specifically regards red ring failures.

Some quotes from the XBox.com forums:

"I personally will reserve my thanks until I see actual results. I can say I am complaining because for me, the issue is NOt just the extended warrany, the issue is Microsoft continued to sell a defective product regardless of how many complaints they received and they ONLY revised its warranty becuase the news hit the media.

Don't get me wrong, I am a loyal X-box 360 fan. I am having my system repaired for the 3rd time. All I am saying is before we give them our appreciation, we, consumers need to be shown some appreciation. "

"In addition, there is a larger problem than just the 3ROL failure. Its a complete customer service marketing failure. This issue did not just creep up on consumers, people have been complaining for quite some time. Microsoft continued to sell a product that it KNEW had a serious deficiency. It SHOULDN'T have taken for this to become a international news story to get microsoft to act. This is what I mean by the Knee jerk reaction. They ar eresponding to ONE incident and not the system that allowed this one incident to fester. To me, real solutions means a complete overhaul of their customer service program and an overhaul of their product testing division. "

"

3 Flashing Red Rings

My Xbox 360 console purchased 12/20/06 (manufactured on 9/16/06) died the day before the 4th of July, 7/3/07. The console sits horizontally and is given more than adequate breathing room on all sides to support cooling. Air-conditioning has been running non-stop in the apartment since the first week of June. In other words, the system is well taken care of and ambient temperatures are kept at, what should be, a more than comfortable level for any consumer electronics device that doesn't have a systemic, internal cooling design flaw.

Is it a systemic design flaw? Well, my fiance and I have four PCs in our home, 2 hand-built (i.e., I installed the heatsinks, thermal paste and cooling fans myself) and 2 OEM built. 2, arguably 3, of the PCs are packed with high-end components (GPUs in SLI, etc.) and require a lot of cooling. The two older systems both have Prescotts which are infamous for their high temps. And, yet, none of these systems have shown the slightest operational hiccups running in the ambient temperatures of our apartment. The Xbox 360, however, has had increasingly more common problems; lock-ups in games ('Overlord' most recently), occasionally displaying "checkerboard" patterns and, finally, the dreaded 3 flashing red rings of doom. But, things fail, I acknowledge that, and if I thought it was simply bad luck, which does happen with the best products, I wouldn't be posting now. But, after reading or hearing countless accounts of fellow 360 gamers who have hardware failures, it's hard to swallow the "I just had a little bad luck" theory.

Microsoft,

The fact that individuals willing to crack their console's seal and apply their own fixes to the poorly designed "X-clamp" heatsink approach have been more successful than you, after repeated repair attempts, at reviving their "3 red ring" consoles is pretty damning. Admitting a problem and extending the consoles' warranty to cover "3 red ring" hardware failures is a step in the right direction, but it's only a step. You need to be very clear and open with your consumer base as to how you're going to go about fixing, as close to permanently as can be expected (i.e., no more "I'm on my 7th repair attempt with my Xbox 360" testimonials), the "3RR" hardware failures. You're adding an additional heatsink? Fantastic. What specifically will this accomplish? Will there still be problems with the uneven pressure applied by the "X-clamp" or is that being addressed as well? Other than tossing an extra heatsink in and throwing a little epoxy on to keep components, that should be separating in the first place, from separating from the PCB, what else are you doing? Or, if you're convinced that those two measures are enough, _why_ do you believe they're enough?

When you repair a console with the new heatsink and/or a new DVD drive, are you notifying the customer? Why should your customers have to guess at what was done to repair their console when you can ease their minds by clearly stating the cause of their hardware failure and the measures taken to not only repair the problem, but address the root cause as is, presumably, the case with the new heatsinks and the replacement of the optical drives? More information can only improve the customer service and care experience that you claim to be so concerned about.

The repair process is an inconvenience to your customers - these are people who have already purchased the console, supporting accessories and games. They've bought your product. Treating the repair process like it's your customers' obligation or like it's a compromise is unacceptable. Keeping your customers blind as to what was done to their repaired consoles is unacceptable. If your car mechanic or computer repair technician refused to give you any explanation other than "I fixed it", would you consider that a satisfactory customer service experience? Would you feel confident that the problem initially requiring the repair wouldn't crop up again? Go the extra step - your customers purchased a product in good faith and expected it, in kind, to work as advertised; don't treat that good faith like it's an obligation on their part - recognize the inconvenience and be clear as to what you've done to make sure that the inconvenience doesn't happen again.

And the 1 Month Xbox Live subscription card? Again, it's an appreciated gesture, but it is not a "gift" nor is it "free" for anyone who is already a subscriber. Your customers (I'm talking about people who not only purchased the console, accessories and games, but also purchase an Xbox Live Gold subscription) have already paid for the time that their Xbox 360 console is in for repairs. While the console is unavailable, the Xbox Live service is, for all intents and purposes, useless to them. For these customers, you're simply reimbursing them for the time they'll be unable to use a service that they've already paid for. So, nice reimbursement gesture and definitely a nice bonus for those who only use the free Xbox Live service. But, recognize that your customers supporting the Xbox Live service get nothing, or very little, in return for their patience, except for a repaired console that shouldn't have required repair in the first place and a month of subscription time that they've already paid for a likely were unable to use for most of, or all, of the month provided.

Xbox Live DRM

Peter Moore indicated, in the expanded warranty announcement, that Microsoft cares a great deal about it's customer service and care. Then why, this late in the game, is Microsoft still expecting their Xbox Live content customers to be the ones to make compromises? Microsoft does not guarantee that customers requiring repair services will receive the same console. So, a customer who purchased a 360 console and XBox Live DLC content in good faith runs into a hardware failure that they in no way contributed to and in no way could have prevented? That same customer goes through the inconvenience of sending in their Xbox 360 console only to receive a different console (different serial number and motherboard) in return. And, in return, their purchased DLC content? Only works while signed into Xbox Live now. Their kids or spouse who may use a non-Live gamertag on the same console? They lose the ability to play the purchased Xbox Live Arcade content that they've purchased and could previously play without issue. The customer? He or she has just lost functionality they paid for in exchange for purchasing a product that failed and then had to be replaced. Excellent customer service and care!

But, it's not just the customers having to go through the "3RR" nightmare that have to deal with the poorly thought out DLC DRM. Any customer exchanging their Xbox through the retailer will run into the same problems. Even customers upgrading to an Elite (or, in some cases, even purchasing the Elite as an additional console) lose functionality with their DLC purchases.

Many other companies use DRM that offers their customers to transfer the licenses to different hardware; iTunes for example. I understand that DLC content ties to the purchasing gamertag and the console, offering some flexibility, but it's not enough. Many of your customers going through repairs lose expected functionality that existed during their initial purchase through no fault of their own. Offer them an alternative, even if it's nothing more refunding all the Microsoft Points to the _original_ gamertag and let them redownload and relicense the content - still an inconvenience to your customers, but an inconvenience that ends in the full functionality of their original purchase.

Bungie Day Downloads

Offering the "Bungie Day" DLC downloads for only one day just a few days after Microsoft admits Xbox 360 hardware failure rates much, much higher than earlier estimates? Genius. Why should the potential "Halo 3" customers and, more than likely given sales figures, already "Halo" and "Halo 2" customers, with their consoles in for repair enjoy the same benefits as the customers "lucky" enough to have working consoles on 7/7/07? No reason at all."

@MikeB

Quote:

The person with 11 broken consoles recorded his conversation with Microsoft support with the help of 1up. What more proof do you need? He recorded this conversation for you to listen to, because of people like you questioning his honesty.

I don't need any proof if you ask me (I know you didn't) - I can easily believe the 11 machines example happened. With the issues that are there and 10 million of these sold, it is easy to assume that a few such extreme cases are out there.

Of course it would be interesting to know, for example, if the conditions in this persons home or location of Xbox 360 are more difficult than usual - more heat or anything like that. Clearly we don't have reports of many people having such bad luck, many polls etc. report most of the people with problems only having had their machine fixed once or twice (which is bad in itself of course).

But those people with 11 replacements certainly are a minority from what we see. I'd give those guys a refund in a heartbeat if I was Microsoft and they asked - they'd certainly deserve it because even if their homes or placement for the console were substandard, the bottom-line is that there have been legitimate issues in the console itself that are at the root of this.

Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Jul-2007 at 07:26 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

There's still we don't know about this person. Are they really telling the truth?

The person with 11 broken consoles recorded his conversation with Microsoft support with the help of 1up. What more proof do you need? He recorded this conversation for you to listen to, because of people like you questioning his honesty.

@MikeB

just searched and found this
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7892 seems its 33% failure rate as of now

@MikeB

Quote:

IMO they didn't, that's why there are quite a few people on their 7th to 11th console already.

As your links have pointed out the person on their 11th console is not the norm. There's still we don't know about this person. Are they really telling the truth? You don't know them personally just know of someone making the claim, not everyone tells the truth. You don't know what they did on their end. Did they put the console on top of their AV receiver, deny the proper cooling spacing and have a closed rack denying airflow? We don't know. All we can really say if if the guy is truthful and above par then he's got really bad luck.

Quote:

The motherboard is at the heart of the console, a DVD drive isn't.

It doesn't appear that this is necessarily a motherboard issue. The motherboard may well meet specs but perhaps the location of the DVD above the GPU keeps heat localized and is the cause of the motherboard warping. It seems more fans or a different heat sink may well be the answer. We know there were heat sink changes. Also, GPU's don't come off unless the solder breaks or melts there are some claims that the solder used was of low quality in so far as it melted at low temps again allowing the GPU to seperate when there was over heating. Gluing the GPU should in theory provide reinforcement which very well may reduce the occurrances. So, is the motherbord the problem or the symptom? Signs seem to indicate it's the symptom. Seemingly Micromart may given us some hints where they say issues with consoles manufactured before Oct, what changed in Oct and why didn't they say all consoles? Hmmm. And as the 65nm pieces are coming they should be cooler and in turn will help the problem. Perhaps with new solder, glue reinforcement, new heatsinks, and the new GPU the problem returns the 360 into the industry standard failure rates. What we need to know is the inital overheating failure % and the failure % after all these changes. Signs indicate the problem has been reduced from launch but all good questions. And I think necessary to understand because if the motherboard is the symptom your 'fix' of a new one may not do anything to improve the situation.

@MikeB

Quote:

we are still waiting for a suitable console redesign.

To be completely objective, we don't know if the new heatsinks work or not. They might, especially on an Elite that has other improvements as well.

Now, we can GUESS - and I'd be there guessing with you - that they may not be enough and that more works needs to be done, but so far no data on those heatsinks as far as I know.

It really doesn't matter HOW they do it - get the failure rate down to normal - they just have to do it.

The problems with 7-11 console replacements also hasn't been just poor console quality, it must have also been poor repairs/refurbishments because these machines have been dead on arrival in many cases. That is a different issue, one they of course have to fix as well.

Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Jul-2007 at 02:00 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

If Sony would have f*cked up this bad with the PS3, I would have said the same.

Hopefully, but why not admit as much (as the facts require - and IMHO they require more than you do) on PS2 and understand why people are not giving Sony a free pass on quality and consumer satisfaction? This is relevant for historical perspective and understanding why people feel the way they do - just as the Xbox 360 factor will rightfully keep people on their toes regarding Microsoft's tactics and products for years to come.

@jtsiren

Quote:

This entire response underlines for me a severe lack of even-handedness on your part.

If Sony would have f*cked up this bad with the PS3, I would have said the same.

@BrianK

Quote:

And when the 360 is still covered by warranty they would fix it

IMO they didn't, that's why there are quite a few people on their 7th to 11th console already. The motherboard is at the heart of the console, a DVD drive isn't.

All these "fixes" are just temporary, you will have to take exceptional care of these units which is not feasible for every household, we are still waiting for a suitable console redesign.