@MikeB

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I don't claim to be an expert on XBox 360 board design, but lead-free solder exists which melts at much lower temperatures, it depends on the alloy.

I am well aware of that but I am also aware that those alloys are not used for such applications.

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How does the wet towel trick work then? The wet towel trick overheats the boards intentionally and often works as a temporary fix.

Not by melting the solder. It just flexes the board so that the balls make contact again.

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@MikeB

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IMO PS3 OS4 interests are no different form the ACube or OS4 port for the Mac. I think the "many" complaints were a result of personal attacks and flamewars getting out of hand, IMO something moderators should try to prevent instead of inflame. Calm and reasonable debate on the matter is possible, if people are willing.

Could you please stop trying to guess what the complaints were about in retrospect? Most of them consisted of "what on earth does that have to do with the Amiga?".Our say on this matter is final and the PS3 *is* different than ACube etc., ACube and co have been designing hardware to target this market, gone through the proper channels to get a licence in order to sell those boards with AmigaOS4 and so on. The PS3 talk so far has been exactly that, talk. Nothing less nothing more. *IF* we get some concrete evidence that something is going to be done to make it happen, which is not going to happen anytime soon, due to the lawsuit, you'll see the PS3 *OS* threads on the front page. Until then, forget about it.

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@AMiGR

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It is not different. At all. Until we see OS4 on it, both PS3 and XBox360 topics will be staying off the front page, we got FAR too many complaints.

IMO PS3 OS4 interests are no different form the ACube or OS4 port for the Mac. I think the "many" complaints were a result of personal attacks and flamewars getting out of hand, IMO something moderators should try to prevent instead of inflame. Calm and reasonable debate on the matter is possible, if people are willing.

@AMiGR

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It does not melt the solder, it flexes the board and the solder joints pop. No chip in a computer gets hot enough to melt solder, Lead-free solder melts at temperatures of over 200C.

I don't claim to be an expert on XBox 360 board design, but lead-free solder exists which melts at much lower temperatures, it depends on the alloy.

How does the wet towel trick work then? The wet towel trick overheats the boards intentionally and often works as a temporary fix.

@AMiGR

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It was me, I got it off the front page, as we did with the previous threads and as we will be doing with the next threads. Console threads are free to be discussed but will not be on the front page of this site, the poll made it clear and the insane number of complaints we got about it reinforced it as well.

OK, thanks for the info. Personally I'm quite okay with that, off the front-page is just fine because they are off-topic for this site (good that they can be discussed if some people want).

Although I think I will refrain from posting into these threads pretty much from now on until I have something really new to say, perhaps the console battle heating up towards Christmas or some future gaming experiences will yield something worthy of posting, but currently I think I have exhausted my comments.

I will, however, let you guys know if my Xbox 360 ever blows up.

@jtsiren

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Of course I don't know who moderated the thread and why, but I would imagine the reason for moderating it is similar to the reaction I had when I first encountered the thread. I wouldn't be surprised if the moderator in question felt your new thread to be more of a continuation of the past "Xbox 360 vs." threads instead of a genuine attempt to raise an important Microsoft topic here.

It was me, I got it off the front page, as we did with the previous threads and as we will be doing with the next threads. Console threads are free to be discussed but will not be on the front page of this site, the poll made it clear and the insane number of complaints we got about it reinforced it as well.

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@MikeB

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The PS3 however based on comments from Amiga and Hyperion is IMO totally different, as apparently the console is of relevance to AmigaOS4 and this is supposed to be an Amiga related forum.

It is not different. At all. Until we see OS4 on it, both PS3 and XBox360 topics will be staying off the front page, we got FAR too many complaints.

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@MikeB

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Yes overheating seems to be the main XBox 360 problem (dwarfing in occurrence the disc scratching issues currently under investigation by the European Commission), basically the GPU gets hot which according to most people melds the solder and flexes the board causing disconnect on the board. After many consumers giving up on Microsoft or those beyond warranty have discovered ways to (at least temporary) fix the problem themselves, with similar or better results than sending these units off to Microsoft.

It does not melt the solder, it flexes the board and the solder joints pop. No chip in a computer gets hot enough to melt solder, Lead-free solder melts at temperatures of over 200C.

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@MikeB

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Although I agree the XBox 360 isn't Amiga community related, I think these issues should not be censored as the problem is too big. Other less severe or important Microsoft topics can be discussed here at AmigaWorld without censorship.

Of course I don't know who moderated the thread and why, but I would imagine the reason for moderating it is similar to the reaction I had when I first encountered the thread. I wouldn't be surprised if the moderator in question felt your new thread to be more of a continuation of the past "Xbox 360 vs." threads instead of a genuine attempt to raise an important Microsoft topic here.

The result might have been different had it not been posted by you (or one of us other activists), because that apparently unwelcome continuity wouldn't have been there. That may seem unfair or fair, the moderators reaction (and mine) may be right or wrong, but nevertheless I guess that is the reason why it happened.

@MikeB

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IMO I got unfairly attacked for sharing my findings here at AmigaWorld while discussing the PS3 and XBox 360. People should learn not to divert topics they dislike into becoming something personal. Without moderator intervention or even with moderator participation as has been the case here at AmigaWorld IMO this can only easily result into flamewars, something when I was part of the team we were very much trying to combat.

This is my promised non-response acknowledging I have read your response.

@jtsiren

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Personally I had decided not to start a new console thread here in quite some time because I thought it isn't welcome. I have no interest in overstaying my welcome and I will try to limit the length of my contribution (or even not contribute at all) to future console threads (this one included).

Although I agree the XBox 360 isn't Amiga community related, I think these issues should not be censored as the problem is too big. Other less severe or important Microsoft topics can be discussed here at AmigaWorld without censorship.

The PS3 however based on comments from Amiga and Hyperion is IMO totally different, as apparently the console is of relevance to AmigaOS4 and this is supposed to be an Amiga related forum.

@jtsiren

Also note I watched the Dutch Kassa (consumer protection agency) reportage covering disc scratching on television by pure chance. This in turn resulted me into finding UK's consumer protetction agency Watchdog's reportage on overheating problems on the internet, etc.

IMO I got unfairly attacked for sharing my findings here at AmigaWorld while discussing the PS3 and XBox 360. People should learn not to divert topics they dislike into becoming something personal. Without moderator intervention or even with moderator participation as has been the case here at AmigaWorld IMO this can only easily result into flamewars, something when I was part of the team we were very much trying to combat.

Last edited by MikeB on 28-Jun-2007 at 08:42 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 28-Jun-2007 at 08:22 AM.

@MikeB

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Please don't drag this into being something personal, I doubt the sincerety of your doubt of my motives.

Fair enough. But just to clarify and you can respond if you wish (I will not respond so we won't get into an argument): I don't think your mission is here to genuinely warn people of Xbox 360 from the goodness of your heart. IMHO I think your mission is, at least to some extent, to badmouth Xbox 360. Just my opinion based on our previous exchanges and you marketing a competing product. Because of that, if I had been you, maybe I would have started the thread in a bit more toned-down way... It is not like you've been known as a great consumer champion here all the time.

Given that, this is actually a topic you have every right to badmouth the Xbox 360 because the facts are certainly supported by evidence in the public. As you can see, other than that small mention, I was already moving ahead with the topic at hand.

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The guy breaking 11 units also received a few new consoles and not only refurbs.

True, and I am not disputing the root problem here, just saying that in addition to the over-heating problem Microsoft seems (seemed?) to have a problem of not replacing the machines always with working ones. This is an additional pain, with has the small up-side of actually reducing the severity of the problem a bit (it doesn't seem like it is normal for people to break 10 Xbox 360's in, say, year and a half)... but that is a very small up-side considering they might still have broken, say, quarter of half that many new Xbox 360's in that time.

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[Edit] Seems the XBox 360 problems are censored off the frontpage. This place is getting weirder and weirder...

I wouldn't have removed it from the front-page, but I doubt the reason is the one you suspect (Xbox 360 bias). I think people have had it with these console threads and the fight between competing consoles that seem to only interest a small percentage of AW.net visitors. I think our discussions are now considered threads non grata.

Personally I had decided not to start a new console thread here in quite some time because I thought it isn't welcome. I have no interest in overstaying my welcome and I will try to limit the length of my contribution (or even not contribute at all) to future console threads (this one included).

Last edited by jtsiren on 28-Jun-2007 at 08:09 AM.

@jtsiren

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While I doubt MikeB is really sincere in posting all this, he is very likely right about the severity of the problem. I don't know about those daily numbers etc., but this is a wide issue no doubt - every Xbox 360 forum I've seen seems to have some sort of a thread about the problem.

Please don't drag this into being something personal, I doubt the sincerety of your doubt of my motives. Remember at first I thought the XBox 360 was a pretty fine gaming console, it was only after experiencing problems myeslf and doing research on the internet that my perspectives on the console dramatically changed.

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Good because at least this isn't 11 new, working Xbox 360's breaking very quickly, but many of the replacements seem to have been in less than new-from-store shape.

The guy breaking 11 units also received a few new consoles and not only refurbs.

[Edit] Seems the XBox 360 problems are censored off the frontpage. This place is getting weirder and weirder...

Last edited by MikeB on 28-Jun-2007 at 07:55 AM.

@Interesting

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I read somewhere that the overheating is the problem and a quick fix is a new heatsink on one of the chipsets. Know anything about this?

Yes overheating seems to be the main XBox 360 problem (dwarfing in occurrence the disc scratching issues currently under investigation by the European Commission), basically the GPU gets hot which according to most people melds the solder and flexes the board causing disconnect on the board. After many consumers giving up on Microsoft or those beyond warranty have discovered ways to (at least temporary) fix the problem themselves, with similar or better results than sending these units off to Microsoft.

1) Heatgun the board (look via google for instructions)
2) Replace the clamps. Apparently the most effective method of prolonging the lifecycle of the console.

There are less effective, but cheaper methods to temporary fix the problem. There's something called the wet towel trick, where you wrap the console in a wet towel for some time.

Heatsinks and additional cooler may help as well, it would be best to do some research on this. One thing is for sure, the new XBox 360 Elite is also prone to overheating problems.

Problems sometimes starts with games freezing, like was the case for me playing Gears of War and/or graphical distortions (GPU) like was especially the case for me with regard to Rainbow Six Vegas.

Last edited by MikeB on 28-Jun-2007 at 07:50 AM.

@MikeB

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I have tried to warn some people here before regarding the reliabilty of the XBox 360 (my main point of concern regarding the console). However things are now really getting out of hand, with for instance MicoMart repair center stating:

I read somewhere that the overheating is the problem and a quick fix is a new heatsink on one of the chipsets. Know anything about this?

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"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

Here is again the statistics page of the hardware failure survey:

http://www.360-gamer.com/xbox360hardwarefailureresults.asp

While these probably by nature attract more entries from people who have had problems (those without problems may not bother as much because they have no axe to grind), and the number of entries so far is lowish, it certainly is telling that there are more 1 broken than 0 broken.

I have learned one new thing from these posts MikeB made: I didn't know Microsoft recycled refurbs as part of the repairs. While that is nothing new (happens all the time in electronics), knowing that many replacements have failed on arrival is both good and bad:

Good because at least this isn't 11 new, working Xbox 360's breaking very quickly, but many of the replacements seem to have been in less than new-from-store shape. I always thought, for some reason, that people got machines back in good as new shape (either fixed or new replacement) and then still broke down soon - now we know this isn't exactly the case when multiple replacements have happened. OTOH, very bad because these people shouldn't be treated with second-grade, poorly tested crap, especially if this is their third or more time they've had to replace a machine.

One of the articles MikeB linked to seems to suggest Microsoft is changing the way they handle the refurbs replacements. We have no way of knowing if they indeed will resolve it, so time will tell. It would of course be good that they get this sorted out, but more importantly they really need to come up with a way to fix this problem (of over-heating apparently at the core) for good. Make no mistake: as much as I love the games and the system, Microsoft needs to resolve this. If the machine has inherent problems, my luck will likely run out one day too and I'd prefer to be able to get a replacement that is fixed for good, not hacked and patched together.

This will start biting Microsoft in the butt eventually. So far it doesn't have seemed to really hand out any sales to the competition, but that might not last forever if Microsoft don't get their act together. Now THIS is valid criticism towards the Xbox 360.

Edit: It may well be, and I should hope so too, that it is a vocal minority that has problems with Xbox 360 like Microsoft claims. However, it would still be a minority of it were, say, 40% of all Xbox 360 owners. Now that wouldn't be any good even if were "just a minority".

Last edited by jtsiren on 27-Jun-2007 at 11:18 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 27-Jun-2007 at 11:07 PM.

Apparently people still love Microsoft:

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In spite of all of this, Justin is still behind Microsoft's console. "I still like Microsoft, as much as that may astound people. There's no real hate towards the company for what I have experienced."

This is like one German car brand in Finland was noted in a recent magazine that the owners of the cars must really like their car, because it was one of the worst rated in maintenance, service etc., yet it was highly liked and with a strong and growing attach-rate. There must be something about the product when you choose to like it even if maintaining one stinks.

For some reason these people just keep on buying new Xbox 360 systems, getting old ones replaced etc. I guess I don't blame them - Xbox 360 is really nice and we have long discussions back then over why this is. But maybe I'm personally a bit surprised, I doubt I'd bother to go through 8 to 11 replacements without calling it a day.

Last edited by jtsiren on 27-Jun-2007 at 10:33 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 27-Jun-2007 at 10:29 PM.

@AMiGR

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They really have screwed this up then.

Agreed. What a shame. In this case it seems to be even more than a case of machines breaking down, it seems to be a case of faulty machines being sent out as replacements which is inexcusable in such a large scale because it seems to be just a cost-cutting measure (or maybe the machines are not packaged correctly or something).

I hope this prompts a more permanent fix then some glue around chips and a new heat-sink - although who knows, maybe those fixes have really been tested to work - I'd just be more comfortable with a larger redesign. 65nm will hopefully be the answer to that.

In the mean time, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong, my launch day Xbox 360 keeps chruning on just fine.

While I doubt MikeB is really sincere in posting all this, he is very likely right about the severity of the problem. I don't know about those daily numbers etc., but this is a wide issue no doubt - every Xbox 360 forum I've seen seems to have some sort of a thread about the problem.

@MikeB

Mine hasn't failed, but it did crash twice last night playing Need for Speed Carbon. The first crash was actualy helpful, I'd won a race but was then chased by the cops after the finish line, which I find to be a horribly annoying aspect of the NFS line, it saved my race win and earnings but the crash meant I didn't have to bother with trying to outrun the cops, which I've not managed to do successfully with this car. The second crash happened while it was uploading a picture of a car, you can snap pix of things but I don't know how to retreive them yet from wherever they upload to. It also crashed once previously in Burnout Revenge some time ago.

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All glory to the Hypnotoad!