@Tigger

completely off-topc like everything written on every page in this thread:
As youre profile is correct and you are really an avionic engineer i have some questions for you.

1) How good are your programming skills?
2) Have you every tried to programm in assembler?
2.1) If yes, have you ever tried to translate 68k assembler to c/c++?
2.1.1) If yes, have you done this with an big program and not such small < 10.000 lines codes?
2.2) If the last two questions where no, how can you estimate the work Hyperion had to do in the past?
3) How can you estimate the work an coder needs for to write an JIT compiler for all well known 68k assembler? (as Amithlon is)
4) Why do you compare an JIT compiler like amithlon which sits on an linux system (and the linux system does everything for os3.9!) with the porting of an whole operating system with the rewrite of all components (including memory subsystem, graphics system, sound system and everything else)?
and finally:
5) How could it be that an OS like MOS take longer for similarly features like OS4 had?
6) Have you ever used an "new" Amiga (like) Operating System OS4 or MOS?

Am i right thar you are only here to "bash" other people for the things they like?

_________________
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1x A600 (40MB HDD) OS2.05 (broken joyport)
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@cHaOs667

Amithlon is offcourse more then just a JIT on a linux-kernel, so your ramblings are way of mark from the start .....

_________________
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- blame Canada

@Tigger

The announcement made before the work on Amiga OS4 started didn't cause much frustration. On the other hand the community was quite happy whith the expected outcome. And to go towards PPC was a big step.

I don't think anyone expected the work force to be stronger for OS4 than when 2.1-3.1 was made.

/Xter

@PulsatingQuasar

Quote:

The OS should definitely not end up with Amiga Inc.

I will go along with that, but it should definitely not end up with Hyperion either.

Hyperion signed a contract in 2001, that was flawed badly, unrealistic etc. so one could assume they had no intent on honoring it. Well. maybe thats not the case. But then, they sign another contract (2003), take money, to which they have not/will not honor.? Sorry . . . I smell a RAT or TWO.

We need new management all the way around . . . .

_________________
Avatar babe - Monica Bellucci.

@Tigger

Quote:

Bernd wrote Amithlon in 1 year, I'd argue the PPC port is a simpler effort since they were provided the source code, even if you want to argue that its a harder effort, its a pretty big arguement that its a 5X harder effort then Amithlon, thus we'd either be further, or it would have been done sooner.

Amithlon is just an emulator on top of a host kernel, running AmigaOS 3.x. It's hardly comparable to the development effort of a full-blown OS, which includes native kernel, native 2D and 3D graphic subsystem, native TCP/IP stack, native Voodoo/Radeon 2D/3D drivers, JIT emulator, interpretive emulator for additional compatibility, and basically native port of pretty much every OS component, and almost every OS component has vast improvements and many bugfixes. So it's a ridiculous comparison. Amithlon was a fine effort from Bernd, and all the respect for that, but the only thing that compares to OS4 in terms of development effort is MorphOS. OS4 is not 5x the effort of Amithlon, but more like 20x.

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote: Two questions... 1. Do you currently or have you ever owned OS4?

No, I knew what a POS the Teron boards, and the MAI parts, I surely wasnt going to spend my money on them, my company bought 3 (and a whole slew of articia's) as part of our work on JSF.

Quote:

2. If not, have you ever actually used OS4 in person?

Lots of times, I've even repaired two of the boards for people.
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@cHaOs667

Quote:

cHaOs667 wrote: 1) How good are your programming skills?

To quote my cousin Tony, "They're Greatttt"

Actually the joke above is probably not going to translate well to other languages, but it amuses me, so I leave it up.

Quote:

2) Have you every tried to programm in assembler?

Just a few 100,000 lines, so not really experienced at it.

Quote:

2.1) If yes, have you ever tried to translate 68k assembler to c/c++?

Yes

Quote:

2.1.1) If yes, have you done this with an big program and not such small < 10.000 lines codes?

Yep, but I doubt there were really over 10,000 lines of assembly in the code that Hyperion got from Olaf and there definitely weren't over 10K lines of assembly in any functional piece of what they got from Olaf.

Quote:

2.2) If the last two questions where no, how can you estimate the work Hyperion had to do in the past?

Because its my job to estimate tasks and then complete them on time, something Hyperion did a very poor job of doing.

Quote:

3) How can you estimate the work an coder needs for to write an JIT compiler for all well known 68k assembler? (as Amithlon is) 4) Why do you compare an JIT compiler like amithlon which sits on an linux system (and the linux system does everything for os3.9!) with the porting of an whole operating system with the rewrite of all components (including memory subsystem, graphics system, sound system and everything else)?

Because Bernd wasnt doing just a port to a different processer, which is something people do all the time, one of the most common ports used to be, wait for it, wait for it, porting from 68K to PPC, gee that sounds alot like what Hyperion tried to do.

Quote:

5) How could it be that an OS like MOS take longer for similarly features like OS4 had?

They created the OS, they didnt have the source, and in reality I'm not sure I'd agree they took longer.

Quote:

6) Have you ever used an "new" Amiga (like) Operating System OS4 or MOS?

Used both of them.

Quote:

Am i right thar you are only here to "bash" other people for the things they like?

No, you are not right. You can like whatever you want, I definitely dont care what you like or don't like, but doing banana dances for an OS thats over 4.5 years late is a little silly in my opinion and I have the right to say so. The port never should have taken this long.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

Bernd wrote Amithlon in 1 year, I'd argue the PPC port is a simpler effort since they were provided the source code, even if you want to argue that its a harder effort, its a pretty big arguement that its a 5X harder effort then Amithlon, thus we'd either be further, or it would have been done sooner.

This makes me think, you don't know what you are talking about... If you are estimating everything like this, I'm getting doubts regarding your AROS -> EFIKA port... But, good luck!

You wrote, you are used AmigaOS4. May I ask, what for?

@COBRA

Now, lets just say all of that what was not done by Hyperion themselves would also not have been Bernies job. Furthermore compare Amithlon_V1 to OS4-PR1 (which also wasn't much more than OS3.x + patches running emulated on a costum kernel, just without JIT).

And then don't forget that Hyperion weren't contracted for a whole OS in 5 years, but something more like AmithlonPPC in 6 months.

So yes, I'm 100% sure Bernie would have !released! something useable long before Hyperion did, and I see no reason why it's current version should have fallen short of anything Hyerion have delivered sofar.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

It's a well known fact that it wasn't worked on for 5 years but in small bursts of part-time work by the developers.

It's stupid to keep saying 5 years. I too could have taken an OS development class and produced a useable kernal in that time by myself, but it's common knowledge that it wasn't worked on 8 hours/day * 10 developers for 5 years.

Keep in mind that during that 5 year span, an Artic port was completed.

Also the OS was useable in it's "pre-release" form. Everything after that was developed even more casually (time-wise) in order to tidey things up and add the missing features.

The whole situation is criznap. Straight shiznit. But if I had to blame anybody for the current lack of an OS released to the public, I blame KMOS/ITEC's re-interpretation of the contract. Hyperion is supposed to be able to sell OS4 but only for Amiga hardware. KMOS/ITEC (if they own the trademarks) will not license any Amiga hardware. KMOS/ITEC want the OS to sell for themselves not allowing Hyperion to recover their costs in it's development so that the leeches behind ITEC/KMOS can make all the miniscule profits (if they even intend to sell it to the public) and fatten their completely vacant portfolio.

That's the short and tall of it. All this legal pandering doesn't help any of us. It's purely for KMOS/ITEC's porfolio. I'm thinking that DiscreetFX's public announcement of the intent to buy was what spurred all this. Now Scamiga Inc. wants to look like they are worth something to a potential buyer. They figure they will recover their costs from the sale and probably haven't paid a dime to any lawyer but only "promised" them money when all the trademarks (and possibly OS if they win) are sold.

@number6

Thanks for the response.

Besides the personal email account for Kouri (is he using dialup :) ), there is no ITEC website or physical address, yet they are suing in the State of New York.

Having just dealt with some auditors from the State of New York, I hope Itec is paying their share.

Kirka

@kirka

Quote:

Besides the personal email account for Kouri (is he using dialup :) )

LOL!

Quote:

there is no ITEC website or physical address, yet they are suing in the State of New York.

And you find this surprising in -what- way? Heh!

You're still waiting for a website address.
I'm still waiting to hear how Tapul SA fits into all this.
Let us not forget their involvement.

#6

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This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

@kirka

Quote:

Besides the personal email account for Kouri (is he using dialup :) ), there is no ITEC website or physical address, yet they are suing in the State of New York.

They don't have a website, I could only find this information. No surprise to find Reed Smith LLP there...

@Kronos

Quote:

Now, lets just say all of that what was not done by Hyperion themselves would also not have been Bernies job.

Not sure what you mean there, Tigger suggested that Bernie alone could have developed OS4 in much less time that it has taken Hyperion to do it, so when we talk about Hyperion in this sense, we talk about all the entire developmen team which Hyperion have put together to develop the OS.

Quote:

Furthermore compare Amithlon_V1 to OS4-PR1 (which also wasn't much more than OS3.x + patches running emulated on a costum kernel, just without JIT).

Not correct, unless you think OS4-PR1 contained nothing more but an emulator running on a Linux kernel with Linux hardware drivers. Luckily this was not the case, as any OS4 user would tell you.

Quote:

And then don't forget that Hyperion weren't contracted for a whole OS in 5 years, but something more like AmithlonPPC in 6 months.

Don't be ridiculous, have you actually read the feature list in Annex I, before claiming such nonesense that OS4 was just going to be a PPC version of Amithlon?

Quote:

So yes, I'm 100% sure Bernie would have !released! something useable long before Hyperion did

I'm sure Bernie could have released a PPC port of Amithlon for the AmigaOne sooner than what it took Hyperion to release OS4-PR1, if he was contracted to do so. However it just so happens that this was not Amiga Inc's idea of the next-generation AmigaOS, and if you actually knew what OS4 consisted of, and had a little bit of knowledge of what's involved in the development of such things, you would understand why the two are light years apart in terms of development effort.

Having said that, I'm sure Bernie is a talented software developer (he proved that by creating Amithlon) and I'm sure that if he also contributed to OS4 development, it would have helped a great deal and OS4 could have been released sooner. But claiming that one developer alone would have done things faster than the current OS4 team is not only silly, but shows complete disrespect to all who have been involved in the development of OS4.

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: It's a well known fact that it wasn't worked on for 5 years but in small bursts of part-time work by the developers. It's stupid to keep saying 5 years. I too could have taken an OS development class and produced a useable kernal in that time by myself, but it's common knowledge that it wasn't worked on 8 hours/day * 10 developers for 5 years. Keep in mind that during that 5 year span, an Artic port was completed.

First of all they ran up over 1 million dollars in charges for the OS, so it was just part time, they didnt work on it very much isnt that accurate. Second of all, it took 5 years is completely Hyperions fault. Thats the point you guys keep glossing over, they signed a contract in November of 2001, in December of 2006 they said we are done, they didnt have enough money, they couldnt pay people full time, etc, thats noones fault but Hyperions. There is nothing in the contract that says AI or Eyetech is going to fund the effort, though we know over the years they both had to give money to Hyperion to keep them from going out of business. The Arctic port was of OS 4 to the device, something that took 2 months of effort according to the schedule provided with the contract, surely you arent blaming the Friedens working on OS 4 for a PDA for 2 months as they reason it took over 5 years to get to the "Its done" announcement for the Teron version of OS 4 and still not have it available for the classic PPC boards?
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@kirka

For more entertainment try Pentti's search engine at Hakia.
Try "Pentti Kouri ITEC address"
Link at top to a nice thread (one post in particular) on a.org.

Have fun!

Adding the post by Jonas Gustavsson of Amiga Inc. on or about 3/16/2004:

Quote:

On April 23, 2003 Amiga entered into an Agreement with Itec LLC, later acquired by KMOS, Inc. for the transfer and sale of all of Amiga's right, title, source code, and all versions, from the "Classic Amiga Operating System" through AmigaOS 4.0 and all subsequent versions to KMOS, Inc.

Seeing as how "Itec LLC" was "later acquired", I wouldn't expect much data on Itec to be floating around.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 13-Aug-2007 at 05:14 PM.

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*Secrecy has served us so well*

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote: Bernie alone could have developed OS4 in much less time that it has taken Hyperion to do it, so when we talk about Hyperion in this sense, we talk about all the entire developmen team which Hyperion have put together to develop the OS.

I'll spell it out for you since you are still missing the point.

It has taken 5 years for Hyperions poor managment, planning and direction to get OS 4 from its developers, I believe any number of people (including Bernd) could have done the entire OS quicker and cheaper then the 1.1 million and 5 years it has taken to get us OS 4.0.

Quote:

But claiming that one developer alone would have done things faster than the current OS4 team is not only silly, but shows complete disrespect to all who have been involved in the development of OS4.

No, it shows complete disrespect for the way the project was managed, I know Olaf, from the old days, he's a clever guy, I know some of the other developers (I won't name names, because I dont want Hyperion to burn them in effigy), and there are clever people working on the project. I know Ben Hermans, he managed the project, he's incompetant in that regard given the 5 year, 1.1 million effort he lead to nowhere and into the ground at several instances. I manage much larger projects then this effort and if I showed up for Lockheed or Boeing, 4.5 years late not owning anything and still not running on the original targeted hardware the best I could hope for is getting fired, however if Hyperion does it we get the dancing bananas. Why?
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

It has taken 5 years for Hyperions poor managment, planning and direction to get OS 4 from its developers

Heh, what do you know about how OS4 development was managed? I never recall you being part of the team. Management was never the problem.

Quote:

however if Hyperion does it we get the dancing bananas

I sense a lot of envy in this sentence...

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote: @Tigger Quote: It has taken 5 years for Hyperions poor managment, planning and direction to get OS 4 from its developers Heh, what do you know about how OS4 development was managed? I never recall you being part of the team. Management was never the problem.

So it was Hyperions goal and original schedule to deliver in 5 years? I mean thats basically what you are arguing here.

Quote:

I sense a lot of envy in this sentence...

You have much to learn about sensing young Padwan.
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Chip

Quote:

Chip wrote: This makes me think, you don't know what you are talking about... If you are estimating everything like this, I'm getting doubts regarding your AROS -> EFIKA port... But, good luck!

Why Chip, why exactly do you think that OS 4 is a 5X bigger effort then Amithlon?

Quote:

You wrote, you are used AmigaOS4. May I ask, what for?

The Frog and I had some discussions about making Powerstation Altivec aware, plus several members of NASAU have an AmigaOne, so we've had several demos of the new builds, plus I've performed surgury on a couple of the Terons to keep them limping.
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.