@SpaceDruid

The players are all the same, perhaps you condone mafia as long as it is done by the rules too, the laundry rules...

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@Darth_X

Voted yes! (morally) but won't happen (legally).

TrevorDick

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@SpaceDruid

Quote:

Shell game? Probably. But that doesn't change the bare ####d facts of them being two seperate companies.

You seem to be saying they probably did something dicey but that they should benefit from pulling it off? (Because you say "shell game").

Quote:

KMOS have no moral or legal reason to pay Aminos wages bill.

Even with what you say you personally think probably happened, that they probably orchestrated a shell game? Lets make sure we all are working from the same definition for shell game here, its basically to escape debts and spirit away assets and start with a clean slate you don't really deserve with one being willing to screw people legitimately owed money. How can you say there is no moral issue here if you believe a shell game is the probable thing that occured??

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Feb-2008 at 04:25 PM.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

How can you say there is no moral issue here if you believe a shell game is the probable thing that occured??

Because the people behind KMOS are not the people behind Amino.

It doesn't get more complicated than that.

McBill may or may not warrent the comments made about him on this thread, but he is an employee of KMOS now, not the owner. If you want to argue that McBill should pay off the debts of his (former) company then state as such, but if you want investors that had no part in the employment of Bolton or the running of Amino to pay for Bills mistakes with a seperate company then that is a ridiculous notion.

Was the KMOS buyout a shell game? I believe the investors that bailed Amiga out were never going to be interested in a company with huge debts and nothing to show, but were interested in the IP and technological promises made by McBill so bought these instead of the company.

Hiring Amino staff makes perfect sense since they are the ones who understand it best so nothing untoward there either.

I would consider this a shell game in the sense that buying the IP cheaply rather than just buying the company outright to avoid debts does indicate a less than perfect solution for those owed money, but it is a business tactic used everyday by numerous companies the world over and unless you personaly know people affected by it (ie Bolton), then you'd never bat an eyelid to it taking place.

They (KMOS/Amiga Inc) have done nothing illegal.

If anyone bears a moral debt, it is Bill McEwan for not ensuring Amino made enough money made from the sale of Amiga IP to cover their debts, but if he had I'm quite sure nobody would have bought Amigas IP and not only would Bolton still not have been paid, the Amiga would have died complelely.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 05-Feb-2008 at 05:43 PM.
Last edited by SpaceDruid on 05-Feb-2008 at 05:41 PM.

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@SpaceDruid

ok. I'm a little confused here, since this is Kouri since day 1 in the 1990s, and Kouri's business plan.

How is Bill reponsible for Kouri's ineptitude again?

Quote:

A key goal is to horizontally link the Java, Linux, WAP, PalmOS and Amiga communities. Espial works with Intel, Motorola, Sun, Amiga and media partners Java Report, Java Developer Journal and Doctor Dobbs to maintain and enhance this hub.

^This later morphed in what we see today.

#6

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@Darth_X
This pretending to care thing is really getting old.

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@SpaceDruid

Quote:

Because the people behind KMOS are not the people behind Amino.

Please list the difference in ownership between the two. Hyperion is certainly contending otherwise in court and I have never seen anyone show a list that shows there was actually different ownership. All I have ever seen is the same names over and over. If thats not true show us a reliable source, hell, show us even your conjecture on how they a clearly and cleanly different folks. I'm more than open to hear such.

Quote:

McBill may or may not warrent the comments made about him on this thread, but he is an employee of KMOS now, not the owner.

And yet he is buying personal stakes in OS4 in the Hyperion deal with his own money as partial payment for the $25,000 buy-in/buy-out, whatever it might be. (Assuming he paid it, point is he was expected to by Kouri). And he is President of the corporation. It would appear he has an ownership stake since he is expected to fork over his own cash towards business deals for the company.

Quote:

I would consider this a shell game in the sense that buying the IP cheaply rather than just buying the company outright to avoid debts does indicate a less than perfect solution for those owed money,

"a less than perfect solution for those owed money". Getting paid NADA, NOTHING, ZIPPO, ZERO, jeez man., what a ridiculous apologist for evil you are. Now you are even talking like Bill. For shame man, for shame.

Quote:

If anyone bears a moral debt, it is Bill McEwan for not ensuring Amino made enough money made from the sale of Amiga IP to cover their debts, but if he had I'm quite sure nobody would have bought Amigas IP and not only would Bolton still not have been paid, the Amiga would have died complelely.

So Amiga's IP was not even sold for the salary of one man for part of a year? Remember no one got anything, not a thin dime as far as we know. Not even a bloody partial payment on a debt. Yes the ip is worth dirt now, but in 2003 it got not even enough to send a penny to Mr. Peck? Please.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Feb-2008 at 07:06 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Feb-2008 at 07:04 PM.

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@ssolie

Quote:

ssolie wrote: @Darth_X This pretending to care thing is really getting old.

Just curious, since you are questioning Darth_X's character, how you are sure he dosen't care?

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@ssolie

Quote:

ssolie wrote: @Darth_X This pretending to care thing is really getting old.

This coming from a guy who would never support the developers through a donation or bounty system?

(I'm sure he would rather invite them out for dinner or coffee )

Last edited by Darth_X on 05-Feb-2008 at 09:29 PM.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

"a less than perfect solution for those owed money". Getting paid NADA, NOTHING, ZIPPO, ZERO, jeez man., what a ridiculous apologist for evil you are. Now you are even talking like Bill. For shame man, for shame.

that is just terrible! do you realise where you are or what you are commenting on ?? this isnt genocide! and what a scandalous way to speak to someone, appaling!

taking your frustration out with your many 'threads of a similar topic' and now general aw.net posters? shocking.

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@Darth_X

Quote:

Darth_X wrote: @ssolie Quote: ssolie wrote: @Darth_X This pretending to care thing is really getting old. This coming from a guy who would never support the developers through a donation or bounty system?

Not exactly fair. I'm sure others can sort of see ssolie's point here due to the nature of your posts, often 'hit and run' rather than real discussion.

In turn discussion of ssolie's 'support' is sort of futile - I doubt you know just how many OS4 ports ssolie has done, including ssh, his from scratch Axis/Allies like game, and the amount of help he provides to other developers.

Regardless, really, both of you - leave the flames out of here. Yes, the question and poll is pretty much baiting and silly, but it hasn't been removed, either.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

the poll isn't 'baiting' because most people agree with it.

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@Derfs

Quote:

this isnt genocide! and what a scandalous way to speak to someone, appaling!

I never compared it to genocide. Thats ridiculous! That dosen't we mean would should condone evil, even if its a far, far, far, far lesser evil than your outlandish comparison. You are just trying to muddle the point by trying to say what they did was nothing it would seem. Yes of course its minor in comparison to your ridiculous, outlandish genocide comparison. Its microscopic in comparison, even less than that. With that hopefully crystal clear to you now, that dosen't change the reality we are actually talking about. This guy got screwed out of pay, supposedly health insurance, it screwed up his life for quite a while. Crap happens, but with the IP being bought but not even a token payment being made towards his judgement reaks to high heaven.


http://www.answers.com/topic/evil?cat=technology

"evil" adj. definition #1:

Quote:

Morally bad or wrong

"evil noun defintion #2:

Quote:

That which causes harm, misfortune,

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Feb-2008 at 09:43 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Feb-2008 at 09:42 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Feb-2008 at 09:41 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Feb-2008 at 09:39 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Feb-2008 at 09:39 PM.

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@Darth_X

Yes. They were "insolvent", and the people they owe money to should have first grab at their "assets". Besides their unpaid employees, and the $50 they took from me, I wonder how many vendors never got paid such as real estate rent, supply vendors, credit card companies, etc.

Last edited by logicalheart on 06-Feb-2008 at 10:01 PM.

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@Darth_X

I guess what I see as pathetic is people often complain about "pirating" old Amiga games that are 20+ years old now, that are done making revenue for the people & companies that created, as those companies in most cases no longer exists.

Here we have, Peniti and Bill Mc, hired a guy to code software for AA, now the guy didn't get paid, went to court etc.

YEARS later, Bill Mc and Penit, still have this "stolen" code and Bill Mc. is at CES trying to SELL this "stolen" code in the AA package still.

So I guess whatever name changes the company has gone through, Penit and Bill Mc. are still trying to sell some code that they haven't paid the dude that coded some of it. So who's the pirate??

Penti and Bill Mc. are pretty pathetic.

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@AmigaHeretic

You sum it very well

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @SpaceDruid You do not buy one company without paying its debts first... unless it's a shell game

Who said they bought the company? The Amino formerly known as Amiga Inc. is still alive and AFAIK fighting a lawsuit filed by Hyperion. Why should Amiga Inc., formerly known as KMOS, pay the debts of Amino just because they bought certain assets from Amino? I mean, if I buy your car, do I have to pay your phone bills too?

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MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

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@AmigaHeretic

Well, if Hyperion can sue Amino, Amino are apparently still liable for their actions. So, it still doesn't make sense to go after KMOS. And keep in mind that a US corporation is it's own legal entity and that no individual is ever personally liable for any of the company's debts. So, drop the personal persecution already, it doesn't help.

What it boils down to is the sad fact that by US laws, employees are last on the list of creditors. That's why Itec got the assets of Amino which they sold to KMOS to get some of their investments in Amino back. It's not KMOS fault.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@thread

I find threads like this quite amusing. The talk of "shell game" and how AI should honor it's obligations would have gotten you labled as a blue troll at one time. I find it a fascinating study in human behavior, how a person can change their position while never acknowledging they ever had any other position.
My personal position is the employees should have been paid before any others. If Bill Mc, Sheepy, Akey, ect.. ever drew a dime without Tronman getting paid it's a shame. Worse still is all the talk of "he was just a bicycle repairman and didn't do anything worthy". All the posters of those setiments in the past owe him an apology starting with Bill Mc on down to the former BAF's that spouted that same tripe.
I find it hypicritical that the only thing to change many people's mind about Ainc. (in all it's various incantantions) was the suing of their beloved Hyperion. They have been rotten for along time and I can't see it changing without a change in personel.

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @pixie Who said they bought the company? The Amino formerly known as Amiga Inc. is still alive and AFAIK fighting a lawsuit filed by Hyperion. Why should Amiga Inc., formerly known as KMOS, pay the debts of Amino just because they bought certain assets from Amino? I mean, if I buy your car, do I have to pay your phone bills too?

No but if you were to develop multiple personalities, and your one personality "Sam", sold your car (i.e. Amiga IP) to your other personality "Fred" you both still need to pay your phone bill (Employee Peck), because in reality you are the same person. The question for most it seems on this morality issue is that we don't see two distinct groups of people behind these two legal entities (Amino and KMOS). Thats the issue. Also I believe there were conflicting reports at the time whether "they" did buy the company beyond the assets to boot. But putting that aside, who is the different "they" that owned KMOS at the time vs. the "they" that owned Amino at the time? Hyperion's assertions in court only seem to bolster what seems visible to us on the outside on this front. Who are these buyers who constitued KMOS that never had any ties to Amino? I'm very open to hearing about this.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 06-Feb-2008 at 04:21 AM.

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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
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