@Kicko, @eXec, @DAX, @thread

I think the thread is nice because it allowed to exchange feelings about "how do I treat my AmigaOS or MorphOS?".

From technical reasons, also to strengthen my point, I purposely excluded AROS and Classic AmigaOS.

I think two groups of people are here, those who consider most recent Amiga systems as "fully substitutes" or "fun stuff that is sometimes useful also" or "would be not a hobby-os if it was allowing me for running my XXX professional app".

As I said on the beginning, I generally have been working in ICT for 10 years now. I try not to mess business stuff (except for emails) with my home time. Therefore I need a
- music player
- dvd player
- picture viewer
- web browser
- some ed, possibility to read doc files
- skype

Everything cited above works, more or less smoothly on my MorphOS. One can argue about experience or performance... But does relatively low user experience (call it) make an OS a hobby OS? I always thought it is a matter of functionality.

Actually I'm not demanding much from my home OS, as to be read above. I will install ChromeOS soon - and I won't be calling it a hobby OS because I assume Google targets it to be a typical home OS (at least). I think the moment of release is a good time to get back to this very discution... Don't you think?

To summarize, all my four systems serve some basic purposes, and that's the definition of a home os, the list of apps above. Additionally but this is far beyond "home" to me, you can do heavy coding (Linux), others are perfect in office documents and correspondence flow (Windows), others are used by particular professionals (MacOSX).

Personally I think calling AmigaOS4.x or MorphOS2.x "a hobby os, nothing more, live with it, just look around, I cannot find an X app I use in what I do, old-fasioned, doesn't support Y-core CPU not mentioning GPU, MPU also, why not, cannot live in a rack, doesn't protect the memory from some evil and greedy apps"... #### to me, neither applies home, at least in mine.

Just as if I was saying anybody here not having a Symbian or WinMobile or Blackberry or iPhone is having... a hobby cellphone... DID YOU KNOW?

EDIT* Nice article in OSnews BTW. Shows three OS groups actually, not two.

Last edited by DiskDoctor on 23-Dec-2009 at 02:36 PM.
Last edited by DiskDoctor on 23-Dec-2009 at 02:34 PM.

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@polka.
Quote:

No, the purpose of use (hobby) is for me what makes it an hobby OS. So these are not different concepts, but one is the reason for the other. The fact that it is still commercially being developed doesn't make it any less "hobbyish".

You exposed two concepts: 1)your idea of a hobby OS (Purpose of Use) which could turn anything into a Hobby OS (as i already stated I have a friend that has made of macintosh his hobby from a long time, not to mention my cousin Carlo that has a grocery store and uses his windows rig solely as a game machine).
2) "one is the reason for the other" misses the third component and solution(since we seem to agree that the problem is the reduced/outdated feature set here), that being WHY the reduced feature set is there and IF are they going to "cure" this particular aspect.
Since a few months ago many believed that Amiga was a dead hobby OS and since they don't seem to cope with the fact that the situation is changed, they keep trying to perpetrate that idea in this thread too.
Yes there was nobody that was going to cure the problem and the situation would have stayed in that "snapshot" forever, but things have changed I'm afraid...

Bottom line: even if the reason of many hobby uses is due to a reduced feature set, it does not make of Amiga a Hobby OS as long as the lack of a modern feature set is not dictated by a particular product placement strategy or from the software being abandoware.

Which in both instances it is not the case. As for eventual professional uses i talk about that below.

Quote:

That was because MacOS had several specialized (professional) apps that were not available for Windows (particularly DTP). AmigaOS has none of them and hence does not see much professional use.

Amiga had many like the mac, and today exclusive apps are a fantasy (even if one app is exclusive like 3DSMax there are a ton of similar or better solutions on other platforms too).
What we need is professional grade software like Page Stream and Blender (in other fields too)then if I decide that my studio uses these software on a Titan based Amiga it will be my own business.
Customers will be happy as long as I deliver the quality they expect.

Quote:

That's not what I meant. I can't do anything with AmigaOS in my field of work. Not a single application is available and this won't change since no companies could justify to make a port for 7 sales. Heck, they even stopped Solaris support in the last version.

This apply to you and others in your field (unlucky I guess), many others will be able to work with their Amigas instead, but let me ask you a question: since support will cease for many OSs would you consider all those that don't have a port of your needed software as hobby OSs? Or whether those "poor" OSs are Professional or not is based on other factors instead?

As you can see an OS can be professional and lack a particular application simultaneously

Last edited by DAX on 23-Dec-2009 at 03:13 PM.

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@DAX

Quote:

Since a few months ago many believed that Amiga was a dead hobby OS and since they don't seem to cope with the fact that the situation is changed, they keep trying to perpetrate that idea in this thread too..

AmigaOS was being developed even while the courtcase was ongoing and updates were being released during that time. So not much has changed in this regard.

Quote:

As you can see an OS can be professional and lack a particular application simultaneously

So what would you call AmigaOS when it's not a hobby OS? A professional OS although it lacks nearly all features of a modern OS and although nearly nobody uses it for professional purposes?

Quote:

This apply to you and others in your field (unlucky I guess)

This applies to me and many many other fields. For other examples, see the above comments (e.g. exec). In fact, it's hard to find any application fields that would even allow a professional use of AmigaOS. I am not even talking about proper memory protection here...

Last edited by polka. on 23-Dec-2009 at 03:23 PM.

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@ChrisH

"So, anyone given-up yet, after realising that we can't even agree on the definition of "hobby OS"? I mean we've had 9 pages so far, so that might give a clue..."

I think we do not need to agree.

btw. I use mainly hobby time when I use OS4. Perhaps that makes it a hobby OS. ANyway, still better hobby than sloppy.

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@polka.

Quote:

AmigaOS was being developed even while the courtcase was ongoing and updates were being released during that time. So not much has changed in this regard.

2009 saw a major boost in this regard due to negotiations taking place "behind closed doors" the signature of the settlement on the 30Th of September was just the final stone of a big building.
So yes both 4.1.1 and MAP were being developed, but as Rigo also stated in this thread, a lot of developers were added recently and things have changed (for the better).

Quote:

This applies to me and many many other fields. For other examples, see the above comments (e.g. exec). In fact, it's hard to find any application fields that would even allow a professional use of AmigaOS. I am not even talking about proper memory protection here...

Yes but consider that there are fields where there is a strong possibility of some quality software being ported sooner or later (Exec field is good example of one of these) while others have very little hope for the future.


Quote:

This applies to me and many many other fields. For other examples, see the above comments (e.g. exec). In fact, it's hard to find any application fields that would even allow a professional use of AmigaOS. I am not even talking about proper memory protection here...

Quote:

So what would you call AmigaOS when it's not a hobby OS? A professional OS although it lacks nearly all features of a modern OS and although nearly nobody uses it for professional purposes?

I would call it a professional OS that due to a series of mishaps has not evolved at the same speed of other OSs.

Once aknowledged that those mishaps are no more and that there is more people working hard right now to modernize the OS, I would call it a potential "alternative" OS (like Linux) don't get me wrong I'm not saying we are already there but at least that is the direction, the "goal".

Like linux we will not have main stream software in all fields, but in many instances we could get excellent alternative ones (all with the Amiga treatment, right click menus, familiar shortcuts, Arrex ports etc.) not to mention some original one.

The goal is to have an alternative platform that is both fun and viable for professional use, and reach a point where we will be not too much different than other computer users that although are forced to use Windows at work, use different machines and OSs at home even though the latter are very modern alternatives (or even better, if you are the entrepreneur type nobody will stop you in using a future Amiga for your own company as there are many Biz-ownwers using linux).

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@DAX Quote:

the signature of the settlement on the 30Th of September was just the final stone of a big building.

Interestingly enough, according to Rigo, Update 1 has had three months of solid work put into it. That would mean it started at about the time of the settlement! So you seem to be correct here...

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@exec

I seen both latest ableton and the APC 40 at a bowling hall here in Gothenburg/Sweden. They were showing it and also Traktor for DJ purpose. It was a store called "musikborsen" and ableton that had the show. I visit these shows to see whats new, whats changed etc. Im invited as i buy hardware, cables etc from them and ofcourse of interest. Its nice the control with APC 40.

Thank #? there is no law that forces to tag an OS with a term like "hobby" or "professional". And as long as there is no need to do so, all his discussion is rather void. Everyone is free to call it how he or she likes. IF one prefers hobby fine, if anothe rprefers something else, tine, too. I call it my "preferred OS" or just "MorphOS".

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@DAX

Nothing against your optimism and or OS4, but the situation over the last many years was always like this. Very sounding and lots of mysterious announcements and the promise that the future will be bright. Unfortunately the outcome never paced with the promises and announcments, thus I sh*t on any MAP or promise as long as it isn't real (or at least publically shown and documented). And all that jingoism about a bright future... well we had that enough in recent years. Go dig in the archives. It sounds too much like another repetition of the old, too well known broken record.

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@Zylesea
First let me tell you how much i like your post 189

As for post 190 I see a big difference this time: this time we miss one of the main factors of the situation you described, and that is the fact that from Gateway to the various Ainc. incarnations these guys always delegated others to do the work.
It is like the rich owner of a small Farm that has others working for him although he can't milk a Cow nor kowns how to handle a shovel. If the employees go on a strike he is in trouble, but if you give the farm to a real farmer he will know what to do.

This time the farmers own the farm, they don't have to wait on others to deliver the work, they are doing the work themselves (and they own their own work) this is the major "sleeper news" that many have missed

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@DAX

I don't see the situation like you because Hyperion didn't restrict AmigaOS4.x development and they did enhance it at their will. Amiga Inc didn't cut down any feature. I saw everyone working hard and nobody complained about Amiga Inc not allowing them to develop OS4 the way they liked. Amiga Inc was supposed to limit the number of platforms they ported OS4 to but that was proven to be untrue due to the non-legal ports (according to Amiga Inc contracts) done for Sam440 and Pegasos2.

They enhanced what they wanted, they invested on OS4 what they wanted (much more than Amiga Inc signed) and they sold it for the platforms they wanted. I don't see restrictions. They have always been free to do what they want (or at least they have done what they wanted even if it was in the border of legality like Sam440 and Pegasos2 ports). They even released OS4.1 when the original contract only stated OS4.

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@Crumb Quote:

Amiga Inc didn't cut down any feature. I saw everyone working hard and nobody complained about Amiga Inc not allowing them to develop OS4 the way they liked

Well of course not: On the one hand they hoped to be proved in court that they held the rights to OS4 (and that AI had been bankrupt), so they can't very well claim Amiga Inc is stopping them. Especially not in public, since that could harm confidence in OS4's future.

But on the other hand, they did not want to make the courts' potential punishment worse, in case they lost, so they stuck to the original agreement with Amiga Inc where possible.... But as they got further into the court case (and saw more of Amiga Inc's cards), they gradually did get more bold about breaking their agreement with Amiga Inc, with OS4 ported to the Sam440 being biggest sign).

(Note that this is all speculation on my part, but it is how I have always seen it, and the facts seem to fit this explanation fairly well.)

edit: In fact, IIRC, OS4 for Sam440 was announced at around the same time as the unknown 3rd-party started mediation between Hyperion & Amiga Inc. Allowing them to release OS4 for it may have been something that AI did to show good-faith.

Next you will be saying that it is entirely coincidence that concentrated work started on Update 1 at about the same time as the settlement was made...

Last edited by ChrisH on 24-Dec-2009 at 02:19 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 24-Dec-2009 at 02:15 PM.

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What's wrong in being a hobby os?. I simply enjoy it as is, and don't bother what others may think as long as it suits MY needs. Now i use classics and MorphOS on my mini and enjoy it for what it is, even when the majority of my friends don't understand why i stick to such platforms. My answer is always the same: I like it.
It's Christmas time, so enjoy that in 2009, soon 2010 you still can enjoy an Amiga OS and such a community exists today!
Merry Christmas to all aboard!

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@Crumb
Quote:

As Hyperion Entertainment'??s most ambitious project to date is drawing to a close in collaboration with our partners, we invite our current and prospective customers to watch this space for further updates on Hyperion'??s continued efforts to revive the Amiga platform.

With the Christmas spirit of actually giving them a chance (as a Christmas present) wait and see with all of us

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@ChrisH

Quote:

Especially not in public, since that could harm confidence in OS4's future.

While betatesting I have never noticed that Amiga Inc was stopping OS4 development. In a few words: Amiga Inc weren't stopping them in any way. When they wanted to release Peg2 version they did it. When they wanted to release Sam440 version they did it. When they wanted to release OS4.1 they did it.

They had no problems in claiming Amiga Inc didn't allow them to release OS4 for other platforms while they were typing from one of the forbidden platforms and later even released their OS for it.

Quote:

(Note that this is all speculation on my part, but it is how I have always seen it, and the facts seem to fit this explanation fairly well.)

I don't need to speculate anything because I have seen it all from inside: Amiga Inc didn't stop development of OS4 in any way.

Quote:

edit: In fact, IIRC, OS4 for Sam440 was announced at around the same time as the unknown 3rd-party started mediation between Hyperion & Amiga Inc. Allowing them to release OS4 for it may have been something that AI did to show good-faith.

more speculation from you but little facts. Hyperion released OS4.1 with all the improvements they wanted to publish and Amiga Inc didn't restrict them.

Quote:

Next you will be saying that it is entirely coincidence that concentrated work started on Update 1 at about the same time as the settlement was made...

uh? What has to do the future update with this? it's not revolutionary anyway (it tries to bring OS4 users some stuff MorphOS users have been enjoying for years). I bet here right now that my Mac Mini will still run Blender faster than your Sam440 (lol).

My point is that Amiga Inc never caused Hyperion to cut features or stop developing OS4 but you can speculate some more if you want (it seems you find discussing angel's gender a very interesting thing to do)

You may believe me or not (I don't care much)

Last edited by Crumb on 25-Dec-2009 at 03:30 AM.

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@DAX

I wish you a nice Christmas with a wonderful 4.1.1 update

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@Crumb
Merry Chrismas to you too (no 4.1.1 for the moment so you're entitled to have a gigle ).

On a general note, consider that the fact they released something every now and then (including 4.1 or minor updates) does not detract from the fact there were moments where the "development car"'s accelerator was floored and others where troubles and fears of having to hand out the hard work have put the development in a stand still state. These moments would last for a while and then dev would continue again.

So what you and ChrisH are saying can both be two sides of the same medal (you are not contraddicting each other).

The situation now is different, there is no fear to hand out the hard work, and more people will work on future updates with the "development car"'s accelerator floored all the time.

I know you don't have the slightest faith in this based on true facts that appened in the past, but if you don't see it in a statistical way (ie: how many times in Amiga History promises were made and not delivered) and read between the lines (different times, different situations) you might see that better developments now are at least ?�possible.

This is no garantee that there will be, but unless we wait to see how the story unfolds with this new situation (which you got to admit it's pretty much a first since a long time) we cannot say anything for sure.

Last edited by DAX on 25-Dec-2009 at 11:11 AM.

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@DAX
>Amiga had many like the mac, and today exclusive apps are a fantasy (even if one >app is exclusive like 3DSMax there are a ton of similar or better solutions on other >platforms too).
>What we need is professional grade software like Page Stream and Blender (in >other fields too)then if I decide that my studio uses these software on a Titan based >Amiga it will be my own business.

If you dont believe Exclusive Software can come, then you want existing Software on this Hardware.So the question is what can the MOS or OS4 do better with Blender or Pagestream, that other System cant do faster.

You write about Titan based Amiga. The next question is who build this titan based computer.

That the GFX Card can use to render and make things faster is true, but its also true that on a fast X86 this go more faster as when you plug in the SAM a modern GFX Card.Its also important to have a fast CPU to GFX Card mem access.

But who should all this develop, there are not much people that need a Blender or pagestream or fast Hardare.sure 733 MHZ without SIMD of a 440ep and no 2.Level Cache is too slow, but a 1,6 GHZ Atom with SIMD and hyperthreading and 512 kb 2. Level Cache is for most fast enough.but the windows and linux and Mac market is big, and when there 0,01% people out that need Blender or Pagestream, its enough market to develop faster than netbook

You can see it with the nettop, for many its good enough and most sell Atom HW is 1,6 GHZ and no slower Versions even if there are Atom Versions with 800 MHZ

They want not pay much money and need no fast computer so they buy a cheap netnook.

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Last edited by bernd_afa on 25-Dec-2009 at 12:11 PM.

@bernd_afa

Quote:

But who should all this develop, there are not much people that need a Blender or pagestream or fast Hardware.sure 733 MHZ without SIMD of a 440ep and no 2.Level Cache is too slow,

You are forgetting we do have some Pegasus2 and AmigaONE-XE G4 1Ghz users.

Quote:

but a 1,6 GHZ Atom with SIMD and hyperthreading and 512 kb 2. Level Cache is for most fast enough.but the windows and Linux and Mac market is big, and when there 0,01% people out that need Blender or Pagestream, its enough market to develop faster than netbook

The 1,6 GHZ Atom only runs aros, and if you read review from 24.dec.2009, you see there is lots of work needed to be done.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30307&forum=28

Thinkchip wrote this:
Quote:

AROS is definitely interesting. But there still seems to be lots of work left to do.

please stop your envy and start porting Blender to AROS, no one is stopping you and it will make AROS more useful,

Atom is single core, intel chip whit integrated graphics, if you are doing preofersonal rendering you get some 8 core computer whit best possible graphic chip, not a laptop computer.
(then you link the besasts up to form a cluster of 8 core computers, to maximize the rendering speed.)

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