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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Hyperion Blog update....
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whose 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 15:53:09
#401 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Posts: 893
From: Germany

@Spectre660

Hey, WHICH software uses the power that is actually available, to its extend? I dont know of ANY such software. I know some "software packages" that fill all the power, but they dont use it. They waste all the power.

A counter-example could be M.A.C.E., but I think that it would run nicely on a SAM440ep if the resolution chosen is not "FullHD", which is not really necessary for such a game IMHO. 1920 x 1200 would be like "filling" the gap in power really used and power possibly available, but it nonetheless doesnt actually "use" it. You know what I mean?

I dont say that there wont be any software that really needs the raw power of a monster like the PA6T could be, but actually there isnt.

SAM460ex was sold quite good, I remember stocks being empty not so long ago. Without multicore support or Gallium3D announced If they solve the driver situation, the 460ex could be, what the 440ep actually is. A really well designed and supported OS4 machine.

I dont think that users really look at raw power, but more on the fact if the system they are running works fine, feels fast and, more important than theoretical speed, like Amiga. Or is anybody out there using a SAM44ep who is unsatisfied with the power it gives for "normal" use? I heard lots of praises to ACube for this nifty little machine (I have one myself, and its the best OS4 machine I saw so far! Not the fastest, but the most stable. I like to use it very much!), but I also heard lots of complaints about the software users are forced to use.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 15:53:13
#402 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1306
From: CRO

What about memory protection. That is FAR, FAR more important than MP... Any info on that and the mechanism of implementation?

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cgutjahr 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 15:59:04
#403 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 892
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp

I realise you're trying to be funny - which is appreciated, thank you.

But I'm complaining that your information policy really sucks recently - and your reply is: "you're not well informed these days" - seriously? You might want to rethink that approach.

And, as always, you (whoever is using the "hyperionmp" account these days) are welcome to correct whatever wrong statements I make. I'm not intentionally posting wrong stuff, so I would actually welcome any corrections.

And while we're at it, I asked some honest questions, would you care to answer them? Like: why are Warp3D drivers being developed, and not Gallium/OpenGL drivers?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 16:00:56
#404 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11412
From: Norway

@whose

Quote:
I dont say that there wont be any software that really needs the raw power of a monster like the PA6T could be, but actually there isnt.


What about HD video

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 16:03:09
#405 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1306
From: CRO

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
What about HD video


AFAIK, only 720p possible on PA6T?

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tommysammy 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 16:04:34
#406 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Jan-2010
Posts: 653
From: Isselburg,Germany

@WolfToTheMoon

No 1080 is possible too
I tried it over Linux here on my X1000

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 16:05:04
#407 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11412
From: Norway

@WolfToTheMoon

What if you used hardware acclration.

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Spectre660 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 16:08:09
#408 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3800
From: Unknown

@whose


Dont know if you remember or saw this.
A little extra hardware and the OS 4.x 2D Video driver to make it happen.


http://hdrlab.org.nz/projects/amiga-os-4-projects/radeonhd-driver/radeonhd-development-log/radeon-hd-6450-vs-radeon-9250-the-compositing-showdown/

Quote:

whose wrote:
@Spectre660

Hey, WHICH software uses the power that is actually available, to its extend? I dont know of ANY such software. I know some "software packages" that fill all the power, but they dont use it. They waste all the power.

A counter-example could be M.A.C.E., but I think that it would run nicely on a SAM440ep if the resolution chosen is not "FullHD", which is not really necessary for such a game IMHO. 1920 x 1200 would be like "filling" the gap in power really used and power possibly available, but it nonetheless doesnt actually "use" it. You know what I mean?

I dont say that there wont be any software that really needs the raw power of a monster like the PA6T could be, but actually there isnt.

SAM460ex was sold quite good, I remember stocks being empty not so long ago. Without multicore support or Gallium3D announced If they solve the driver situation, the 460ex could be, what the 440ep actually is. A really well designed and supported OS4 machine.

I dont think that users really look at raw power, but more on the fact if the system they are running works fine, feels fast and, more important than theoretical speed, like Amiga. Or is anybody out there using a SAM44ep who is unsatisfied with the power it gives for "normal" use? I heard lots of praises to ACube for this nifty little machine (I have one myself, and its the best OS4 machine I saw so far! Not the fastest, but the most stable. I like to use it very much!), but I also heard lots of complaints about the software users are forced to use.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 16:21:24
#409 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1306
From: CRO

@tommysammy

Linux is one thing, AmigaOS other... not the same drivers, no SMP.

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billt 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 16:22:02
#410 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3156
From: Maryland, USA

@number6

The original Radeon agreement was an agreement between Forefront and Hyperion, with an NDA with Picasso96 team to get that API and dev kit to work with. Eyetech provided one AmigaOneXE motherboard, and I had to buy my own, but these came later on in the project. Work was originally done on an Amiga 3000T, a3000 desktop and A4000T with Prometheus PCI bridges, and OS3.9. We bought the Prometheuses ourselves, the computers being our old personal machines. (Prometheusii?) We worked a bit in OS4-68k, and then got the AmigaOne XE's from Eyetech for OS4 once it became enough PPC-native that the classic machines no longer sufficed. (Neither of us had CSPPC cards, though several years later I finally did get one myself) The first Radeon picture to come up was on Joshua's A3000T with whatever 68x he had in there, I don't know if he had an accelearator upgrade or not. My A4000T was an 060, and my desktop 3000 was the original 030 at first, then someone lent me an 060 card for a long time.

And people were all up in arms that we hoped to get paid for our work then, as Hans does now. Understand that I spend a several thousand US$$ on various Radeon cards, Prometheus cards, the AmigaOne, etc. While I pushed that effort as far as I did mostly because I wanted something better than the then aging Voodoo cards for myself, (while wondering why everone else seemed so happy to stay forever with Voodoo 3000 when the company was already eaten by Nvidia and long gone) and Forefront at the time was up for my shenanigans, it was a great deal of effort and expense between us at Forefront.

Last edited by billt on 01-Apr-2013 at 04:24 PM.

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whose 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 16:22:26
#411 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Posts: 893
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
What about HD video


Any software out there made to actually replay "HD" video? I mean, besides flaky ports of software trying to be 10000 different softwares at once and wasting CPU power by using dozens of HALs and other layers to achieve the goal of replaying any thinkable audio/video format even if a hundred of these formats werent ever used in real world?

What about "LD" video support first? DVPlayer is quite good, but could be even better, if the hardware running it would be supported to its extends. No dual core CPU needed for this, but proper gfx hardware support.

Oh, and I for myself dont need any of the "HD" buzzword thingies. I would be satisfied with proper DVD support (including menu display and functional remote UI support). I had a Pentium3 machine back then (800 MHz), it replayed DVD just fine. Like the PowerMac G3 600 did (trusty old ATI RagePro gfx), that I owned until some weeks ago.

Nothing a SAM440ep running AmigaOS couldnt outperform.

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broadblues 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 16:47:00
#412 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4411
From: Portsmouth England

@whose

Quote:

Hey, WHICH software uses the power that is actually available, to its extend? I dont know of ANY such software. I know some "software packages" that fill all the power, but they dont use it. They waste all the power.


Blender
SketchBlock

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whose 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 16:47:43
#413 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Posts: 893
From: Germany

@Spectre660

Yes, I saw it. But did you notice anything that actually needs the compositing power really badly? Does it look substantially better in 1920 x 1200?

It gained a bit more detail, but the main thing of the (really nice) gfx stayed the same.

The same would go for M.A.C.E. Not the underlying hardware is the key point, but the software using most or all of the power given to it to the best. EntwicklerX are doing a really exciting job here, as all their demos run very well on my not-so-fast SAM440ep. Ok, its not "FullHD" then, but hey, I dont need FullHD to have fun with games. I need a well developed game for having fun!

On the other side, games (I would prefer the word "software packages" here) not needing special hardware features to make up their gfx are often running, well, not so exciting. freeserf is an example. Or, even better, outstanding, so to speak, Widelands. Badly written piece of uninspired junk IMHO. A really big heap of "we did it because we can!". But not exciting at all.

A simple example not directly game related: Some people are really eager to use GIMP. Some people tried to use it for purposes DPaint and Brilliance were once made for. These people cry for the PPaint native version badly. Try to figure out, why this is. GIMP wont become usable any better for these purposes if the machine gets faster. PPaint wont become better, either. But for the intended purpose, PPaint is the better software even on a very slow machine like a Classic, equipped with the slowest CyberStormPPC. GIMP will be most possible unusable on it, for ANY purpose. Go figure...

@broadblues:

Does Blender work with all its functionality on AmigaOS? Do the missing functions magically appear, if the machine gets faster? Or if Gallium3D appears? I dont think so...

Oh, and is it actually as fast as Cinema4D is (emulated), doing the same render job? Not? How come? Maybe too many functions you and I might never need, but nonetheless incorporated/executed?

Sketchblock doesnt need that much power, I would think. Actually, I used it on my 440ep and Im very satisfied with its power. Some filters might gain some value on a faster machine, but for its intended job it works very well and quite fast.

Did you hear any of the Sketchblock users complain about the speed? I watched many threads about Sketchblock, but never spotted any post regarding a speed issue.

Last edited by whose on 01-Apr-2013 at 04:55 PM.
Last edited by whose on 01-Apr-2013 at 04:52 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 17:17:21
#414 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@whose

Quote:
Does Blender work with all its functionality on AmigaOS? Do the missing functions magically appear, if the machine gets faster? Or if Gallium3D appears? I dont think so...


Support for multiple cores will definitely help speed up Blender (with suitable Blender version of course). Blender rendering speed scales linearly with available cores.

Last edited by pavlor on 01-Apr-2013 at 05:19 PM.

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vox 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 17:17:36
#415 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@whose

Quote:
Hm, I get your point, BUT: why should they be forced to, ermh, "finish" SMP or per task separated adress spaces (or even Gallium3D!) just to make e.g. onboard sound of the X1000 working? Or to change Workbench behaviour? Its the same as it was all the last years: open some new construction sites, but, if possible, never finish the old ones (which in turn were new ones some years back). And theres no practical use for the expanded functionality in sight, too. Just like it was with most of the old constructions sites, which were new ones back then.

Or Gallium3D: ANY AmigaOS-only software out there that could make full use of it? I dont heard of such a thing yet. A nice-to-have, but definetly NOT that essential, that all other work must be delayed or even abandoned for it. It seems to me that more importance is given to the "we have it, too!" effect than to real world achievements.


Completely understand your frustration, and its sad mostly the policy seems to be - bring the hardware and OS4 booting on it - develop drivers later. Hope this will change starting from that next thing.

While, yes, most of the functions are really high end and not related to most of users having single core less then 2GB RAM, its a major improvement thing and lays path for the future. And agreed with you, does not negate the need to do other smaller but relevant improvements.

Just to mention that out of all features Gallium is the major improvement to all. It should bring Warp3D to owners of all Radeon cards finally, as well as enable usage of OpenGL to future games and 3D related software . So by finally using 3D hardware acceleration, it should finally enable things like watching DVDs, high res videos and smoother gameplay even to past models as well as having industry standard replacing past Warp3D / MiniGL

All the pluses and minuses are well summarized in kas1e review

Quote:
Pluses: -- it's still AmigaOS, and still in developing
-- you still can have some fun
-- you don't have any kind of viruses, or malware, or trojans, etc. - because no one has interest to write them for 1000 users. No users = no profit :)
-- it still has its unique, different kind of GUI toolkits (mui/reaction), original structurisation of filesystems and so on
-- you can use it just for watching movies, listening to music, and playing some casual games (yes, like on most phones today)
-- there is some interesting native software such as CodeBench, pFTP, SketchBlock, Tunenet and some others
-- good and well done SDK (documentation, all the tools, up2date, etc).
-- interesting from programming point of view as it has GDB, support of real ELF format for binaries -- good bug catching features (sometimes better than on MorphOS)

Minuses:

-- expensive HW, very overpriced
-- uncommon HW (problems with repairing, etc.)
-- OS archaic in a few basic components (3D, GUI, 2D subsystem, audio subsystem and more)
-- users leave OS faster than new ones come
-- everything develops very slowly
-- no MP or resource tracking, the same as on MorphOS and AROS
. -- a lot of fanatism, some of aos4 users sound like true Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientologists

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jorkany 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 17:25:33
#416 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-May-2005
Posts: 919
From: Space Coast

@pavlor
Quote:
Support for multiple core will definitely help speed up Blender (with suitable Blender version of course). Blender rendering speed scales linearly with available cores.


What makes you think so? The type of MP being described in regards to OS4 sounds like it would let you run two separate instances of Blender - not very linear at all. Maybe useful for processing two separate batches and splicing them after rendering but that's about it.

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pavlor 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 17:40:01
#417 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@jorkany

Quote:
What makes you think so? The type of MP being described in regards to OS4 sounds like it would let you run two separate instances of Blender - not very linear at all. Maybe useful for processing two separate batches and splicing them after rendering but that's about it.


HyperionMP talked about SMP, that would suffice for this purpose. Of course I don´t know if OS4 implementation will be suitable for such tasks, we will see (when it is done ).

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 17:50:33
#418 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@pavlor
Quote:
HyperionMP talked about SMP, that would suffice for this purpose. Of course I don´t know if OS4 implementation will be suitable for such tasks, we will see (when it is done ).


where? have i missed something? i only see something about multiprocessing (in general?), while hinting at running two independent oses side by side on the separate cores:
Quote:
There is a clear concept defined for multiprocessing since quite some time which is now being implemented. In fact, on an X1000, it is already possible to boot two independent instances of AmigaOS each running on a different core.

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Franko 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 17:54:49
#419 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp

Forget all those same old questions that everyone keeps asking you for the moment and could you answer the most important question (well it is to me anyway)...

And that is...

What does the "MP" stand for in you nickname...

(Been buggin the hell out of me that one has)...

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 1-Apr-2013 17:58:56
#420 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Franko

Quote:
"MP"

multiple personality..?

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