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PosterThread
salass00 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 19:13:11
#761 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 2702
From: Finland

@Daedalus

Quote:

Why do you need to reformat? Nothing is changing regarding the existing amiga filesystems, they'll keep working exactly as they are. The main use for this as I see it, is being able to read large external hard drives which tend to be preformatted with NTFS these days...


FWIW I've been using NTFS3G lately to get DVD ISO images to my Sam460 for burning onto DVD-R discs as my PC's DVD burner is broken and it has worked fine for me so far. To do this I use an NTFS formatted, 500 GB Buffalo USB2 harddrive which I ordered mainly for the purpose of testing the NTFS3G port.

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jorit2 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 19:16:46
#762 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 235
From: Unknown

@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote:
@jorit2
My comment was a comment for Olafs25, I guess that eluded your attention.



It didn't. My comment was a reply, well, a "Ouch", about the twist you gave to the "argument", or debate, is a better word, with Olafs25.

My reply still stands

Quote:

All I am saying is, that you shouldnt expect people to give stuff away just because, if they do, then its fine, but don't expect everyone to do it.


Just because ? This, the quote in its entirety, and the quote I originally replied to, especially the snippet about "not good business" makes me think you don't have the slightest understanding of what open source and the open source licenses are all about.

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 12-Feb-2014 at 07:28 PM.
Last edited by jorit2 on 12-Feb-2014 at 07:26 PM.

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Rob 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 19:18:47
#763 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5927
From: S.Wales

@Jupp3

Quote:
We could also ignore OS4's license, and upload it to a torrent sites.


Already happened in 2008 it would seem.

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rzookol 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 19:31:59
#764 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2005
Posts: 256
From: Poland, Lublin

@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote:
@OlafS25

Perhaps there are things that MorphOS could use from the AmigaOS code. But it's a business, and giving your work away is not good business.


It's nice that AmigaOS4 developers take parts from more advanced operating system like Linux or MorphOS but MorphOS Team doesn't want to play with tons of #ifdefs, build systems, etc. and we have enough resources to develop own software and release frequent updates. AmigaOS4 doesn't have any interesting technology which could be ported to MorphOS.

Last edited by rzookol on 12-Feb-2014 at 07:37 PM.
Last edited by rzookol on 12-Feb-2014 at 07:35 PM.
Last edited by rzookol on 12-Feb-2014 at 07:32 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 19:37:45
#765 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@rzookol

Quote:
and we have enough resources to develop own software and release frequent updates.


Still waiting for MS Word compatible Word processor with support for footnotes.

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kas1e 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 19:41:50
#766 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3425
From: Russia

@Steven

Just change it please. We have for everyone SDK for 70mb, but your explain that you keep bandwidth low because of 100kb really strange. By such movie you show all ppls who involved with os4 in bad light. Morphos devs share their open source code right on main page, and have no problems with it. Just move those 100 kb for all who want it, and not for registered users. That will only help and to devs, and to users, and to all potential ppls who will help (maybe) os4 someday by some code.

I for myself feel it just show os4 again in bad light (and so, all who involved in too inderectly) and all that keeping of 100kb bandwidth (like there will be a lot of ppls who will download it)t, really wrong idea.

Just change it, and show that we are adequate and do things right. Because if don't ppls from morphos and aros will have one more example of strange aos4 things. Blah, its just like explain that 2+2 = 4..

And why anyone should email you to ask anythin about , like ppls have nothirg else to do. One more block between devs. Instead if it was for everyone right on main page, no one ever will even think about anything.

Last edited by kas1e on 12-Feb-2014 at 07:47 PM.

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rzookol 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 19:53:20
#767 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2005
Posts: 256
From: Poland, Lublin

@pavlor

Quote:

Still waiting for MS Word compatible Word processor with support for footnotes.


Me too, but that's the job for 3rd party developers, bacause it could end like OS4 development where core developers are making OO.org port so users haven't got OS4.2 nor OO.org yet.

Last edited by rzookol on 12-Feb-2014 at 07:54 PM.

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mr2 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 20:09:02
#768 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Feb-2004
Posts: 657
From: Poland

@rzookol


Quote:
...so users haven't got OS4.2...


We got over 70 updates last year. Hyperion could easily higher that magic number to lets say, 4.9?
...like MOS Team did...or Mozilla team...

Last edited by mr2 on 12-Feb-2014 at 08:09 PM.

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billt 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 20:11:12
#769 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3156
From: Maryland, USA

Quote:

Yssing wrote:
@OlafS25

Perhaps there are things that MorphOS could use from the AmigaOS code. But it's a business, and giving your work away is not good business.


It's a choice. Red Hat seems to be doing OK with it...

The license is relevant, in that it sets out a contractual set of rules that the creator and the user must all abide by. Some license contracts state that the user may do certain things in return for a particular sum of money. If one side fails to uphold their side of the contract, then things fall apart, and often get argues about in court.

For the GPL case, the rules include the requirement that the user, if he is also another creator, and uses the GPL licensed stuff, is bound by contractual agreement to provide his own contribution to the original stuff as source code as well. At this point, the good business decision is to either use that original stuff, or not, as deciding to use that original GPL stuff mandates giving away the new sources. If one decides to use that GPL stuff, make changes to, but not give away the sources, then you have made the bad decision to contradict your contractual obligations. At this point, you may find yourself in a lot of trouble, much like if you had used non-GPL stuff, but then refused to pay or do whatever you had agreed to in that other license contract with the originator.

If both MOS and OS4 "sides" have implementations of essentially the same product, and that product is GPL licensed, then one side cannot decide to prevent a combination of the two. If the MOS side gets a bug fix, then that bug fix can be applied to the OS4 equivalent. If the OS4 side adds a new feature, then that new feature can be added to the MOS equivalent. This sharing is allowed, regardless of business interests. The only legal way to forbid such transfers is not to make a side-N implementation of that GPL thing at all.

Look at the case of Verilator, a popular open-source Verilog simulator. It had once been a proprietary product. After being released as open-source, various people found issues and provided fixes. Is it a bad decision to require that business A's bugfix is then available to his competitor, business B? If that's all the further you think about things, it may seem so. But then later on, business B finds a different bug, and provides his fix. Business A has now benefitted from his competitor. Is it still a bad business decision?

Now, compare this tiny Verilator example to what happens in a commercial product. As I might be a biased employee of one of those vendors, I'll make up a product name for discussion, so as not to insult anyone. So, commercial Verilog simulator product named Goober is available for purchase from Vendor A, and any Business A, B, C, etc. can buy a copy. it's a proprietary product, and no customer ever gets to see or work with any source code. Business A finds a bug, and complains to Vendor A. Vendor A fixes the bug, and provides a new release to all customers, including Business B. Was it a bad business decision for Business A to help his competitor this time around? Then, later on, Business B finds another bug, and complains to Vendor A. Vendor A then fixes it, and provides yet a newer fixed release to all customers. So Business A has again benefitted from his competitor as well.

In both the open-source and closed-source cases, both Business A and B have benefitted from each other. Comparing to this discussion, Vendor A is whoever originally created Fuse and ntfs-3g. In the open-source scenario, both MOS and OS4 businesses apply fixes themselves directly, and everyone benefits. In the closed source scenario, Both MOS and OS4 businesses complain about bugs to the Fuse/ntfs-3g Vendor, the vendor applies fixes, and again both MOS and OS4 sides benefit.

So there are plenty of scenarios where open-source is a good business, and plenty of scenarios where the proprietary condition does not prevent helping your direct competitor.

Then, we get back to the decision of the original creator. It's his choice to keep sources closed, or to open them up. It's up to him to do what he thinks is good. If he decides that GPL is good for him, then it's not our place to say he's wrong. Just the same as we are not right to say someone is wrong to choose a proprietary/closed method for his own product. Once the creator makes that decision, then all are subject to it, even if we disagree.

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Tomppeli 
Re:
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 20:30:33
#770 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2004
Posts: 1636
From: Home land of Santa, sauna, sisu and salmiakki

@PR

Quote:
AmigaRulez.

Forever.

@Pavlor
Quote:
Still waiting for MS Word compatible Word processor with support for footnotes.

I thought Abiword has footnotes.

Last edited by Tomppeli on 12-Feb-2014 at 08:33 PM.
Last edited by Tomppeli on 12-Feb-2014 at 08:32 PM.

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salass00 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 20:32:59
#771 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 2702
From: Finland

For those that missed them the first time the source code download links (that don't require registration) are:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26599983/filesysbox-53.21-src.7z
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26599983/ntfs-3g-53.24-src.7z

There is no conspiracy to keep the source code secret or whatever .

Last edited by salass00 on 12-Feb-2014 at 08:33 PM.

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Daedalus 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 20:33:59
#772 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@salass00

Quote:

salass00 wrote:
@Daedalus

FWIW I've been using NTFS3G lately to get DVD ISO images to my Sam460 for burning onto DVD-R discs as my PC's DVD burner is broken and it has worked fine for me so far. To do this I use an NTFS formatted, 500 GB Buffalo USB2 harddrive which I ordered mainly for the purpose of testing the NTFS3G port.


Yep, a very good reason for having NTFS. I was trying to explain there though that existing system partitions on internal hard drives do not have to be changed, as I think that was the impression some people got...

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BigD 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 20:37:09
#773 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5387
From: UK

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:Still waiting for MS Word compatible Word processor with support for footnotes.


That'll be AmigaWriter then released way back in the early noughties!

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Boot_WB 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 21:00:32
#774 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote:

@boot_wb
Feel free to upload a torrent of amigaos, and see where that takes you.



EDIT: Took a re-read of the thread to figure out what your mistake was:

You seem to have attributed one of Jupp3's postings to be from me. Please could you fix that, as I don't like having such insinuations posted against me. If not, I'll be happy to ask a mod to edit it on your behalf.

At no point have I advocated piracy or IP theft. (In fact you'll find the opposite is true in this very thread).

Last edited by Boot_WB on 12-Feb-2014 at 11:05 PM.
Last edited by Boot_WB on 12-Feb-2014 at 09:02 PM.
Last edited by Boot_WB on 12-Feb-2014 at 09:01 PM.

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olegil 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 21:25:16
#775 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5888
From: Work

@ssolie

It does seem a little strange that the fact that GPL licenses will be nitpicked to death has not yet sunk in with the OS4 team, though. I just don't see how this discussion could in any way come as a surprise to you, given the long history of this exact discussion.

_________________
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Daedalus 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 21:27:52
#776 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@itix

Quote:

itix wrote:
@Daedalus

Choice of words is funny because it was already meeting AmigaOS standards and beyond. OS4 is just using different packet standard and need few modifications.


Yes, yes, my mistake. Obviously I meant AmigaOS 4 by AmigaOS in that post, since that is what the whole conversation is about after all...

But of course you already knew that.

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pavlor 
Re:
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 21:31:55
#777 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Tomppeli

Quote:
I thought Abiword has footnotes.


AmiCygnix is too non-Amiga to be even considered as solution by MorphOS developers.

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itix 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 12-Feb-2014 22:07:21
#778 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@Daedalus

Year, I know. Someone just had to add more sweetener because there was not enough sugar.

Last edited by itix on 12-Feb-2014 at 10:15 PM.
Last edited by itix on 12-Feb-2014 at 10:13 PM.
Last edited by itix on 12-Feb-2014 at 10:12 PM.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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asymetrix 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 13-Feb-2014 1:20:05
#779 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 857
From: United Kingdom

@thread

This is very good news, any news about AmigaOS development is good, especially what Hyperion devs are doing :)

We need more of this !

What I would like to see is more indepth news/ details so we can get into the nitty gritty - so to speak, how the development started, design strategy, why decisions made.

This could be a great teaching material for other developers wanting to add features.

For example the post is missing details what are the advantages/disadvantage to using the NEW DOS Apis compared to using the FUSE apis, speed comparison ? upgradeability, cpu usage, multitasking saturation, bandwidth limitation - possible bottlenecks, hurdles overcome.

Yes I want the technical details.

Please bring back the AmigaWorld technical Journals !
Its the ONLY way one learned about the structure and workings of AmigaOS !

Thanks to all devs involved for their hardwork ! I really appreciate your efforts into creating Amiga Apis better, faster and easier to use frameworks .

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jorit2 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 16-Feb-2014 20:07:01
#780 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 235
From: Unknown

@ssolie

http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=2266#p25283

For the sake of intellectual honesty, and to ensure that the users in this group can rest in peace, it might be a good idea to share this new group with the config of amiupdate, if only to make sure that the users you add to this group don't inadvertently receive updates of software coming from the Linux world, don't you think ?

Evert


Quote:

jorit2 wrote:
@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@Thread

FUSE and NTFS for AmigaOS

Nice!


I'm afraid that when I hear one more whining about the abundance of Linux related posts ... I will have to throw up

Evert

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