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      /  Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
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tlosm 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 20-Aug-2013 16:15:27
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2722
From: Amiga land

@Hypex

MuiOwb ... accelerated with full compositing ... will be great ...
for now it is the best browser of Amiga OS 4.

On my Sam 460ex lite 1ghz
http://browsermark.rightware.com/

MuiOwb ... 1280 points
Owb ... 300 points
Qtweb ... 128 points
Netsurf ... not compatible
Timberwolf ... crash ... very very very very very very bad

IBrowse Not Tested
AwebPPc not tested

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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wawa 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 20-Aug-2013 16:16:11
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
Perhaps we should divert resources away from FireFox if it is too damn complicated?

my point all along for what i got flamed to death;) nice outcome..

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Hypex 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 20-Aug-2013 16:20:17
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10576
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Birbo

Quote:
Will MorphOS remain a PPC OS or will it be ported to x86/x64?


A: PPC.

Apart from the obvious sidegrade to the PPC Mac platform I get that answer from the following facts, which any MOS expert can correct me on. MorphOS runs on the A/Box or Amiga Box that sits on top of the Q/Box or Quark Microkernel, as I understand it. Now the A/Box is pretty much entrenched in PPC, as MorphOS has an ABI which calls Amiga functions through a call that loads 68K arguments into a structure and calls a special routine. Apart from updates to the ABI/API. Now, all this is sitting on top kernel that runs specifically on the PowerPC and big endian. As well as the Trance JIT and WarpUP wrapper.

So, for an x86 port, all this would have to break. Surely, some parts like the API could be emulated, but they'd have to replacxe a lot. Perhaps they could cal it the X/Box. Haha. But I don't see any MorphOS port to x86 anytime soon. And even so could a PC port really be called MorphOS anymore? In name maybe but not substance.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 20-Aug-2013 16:47:00
#24 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1330
From: CRO

@Hypex

Quote:
Now the A/Box is pretty much entrenched in PPC, as MorphOS has an ABI which calls Amiga functions through a call that loads 68K arguments into a structure and calls a special routine. Apart from updates to the ABI/API. Now, all this is sitting on top kernel that runs specifically on the PowerPC and big endian. As well as the Trance JIT and WarpUP wrapper.

So, for an x86 port, all this would have to break.


On x86, they can integrate UAE. The performance of x86 CPUs would allow for that and remove the need for redoing all the AmigaOS 3.x stuff on x86 again, for which there's no need in 201x.

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Spectre660 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 20-Aug-2013 17:12:50
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3891
From: Unknown

@tlosm


1467 on My Sam440ep-Flex

Quote:

tlosm wrote:
@Hypex

MuiOwb ... accelerated with full compositing ... will be great ...
for now it is the best browser of Amiga OS 4.

On my Sam 460ex lite 1ghz
http://browsermark.rightware.com/

MuiOwb ... 1280 points
Owb ... 300 points
Qtweb ... 128 points
Netsurf ... not compatible
Timberwolf ... crash ... very very very very very very bad

IBrowse Not Tested
AwebPPc not tested

_________________
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billt 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 20-Aug-2013 17:16:39
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3203
From: Maryland, USA

@realize

We've been waiting for you, what took you so long? I'm surprised that no one has been sqwaking about your silence about this for so long...

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tlosm 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 20-Aug-2013 17:23:33
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2722
From: Amiga land

@Spectre660

Wow... 200 points more compared with 460 :-0
2 way for explain it ... or amiga os 4 is more optimized for 440 cpu, or MuiOwb is more optimized with 440 cpu...
If i remember good you have a 6670 like me true?
i think isnt the video board who make the difference because a friend with Pegasos 2 have 1800 points .

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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Boot_WB 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 20-Aug-2013 18:11:41
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@tlosm

I've just done the test 4 times with the same configuration, and got 4 completely different results for the 'performance' score (ranging from 892 - 1753).
I wouldn't put too much faith in its accuracy.

For a much more detailed analysis try:

Sunspider Javascript test suite
html5 test
Peacekeeper html5 speedtest

Last edited by Boot_WB on 20-Aug-2013 at 06:12 PM.

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

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Signal 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 20-Aug-2013 19:56:39
#29 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

@realize

I just tried ALL the tests and Timberwolf did pretty good. It compaired well with
browsers about 1 to 2 years old. However, browsermark.rightware site kept telling
me my network connection sucks, as if I didn't already know, but TW did not crash
or hang in any of the tests.

And,
@wawa
@WolfToTheMoon

We had a side bet going that I lost as you did not ring in before post #10.
Now this is costing me money. How about I cut you in for a 'piece of the action'
if you could keep up?

P.S. Posted with Timberwolf.

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Tinkering with computers.

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Tomas 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 21-Aug-2013 0:59:27
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@Fairdinkem
The silence and no progress at all is why I completely gave up a year or two back. I hardly ever come here anymore except for now and then just to see if some miracle has happened, but every time this place seems more dead and future more bleak.
My sam 440ep sadly has sadly not been switched on in at least a year as well as it only is useable with irc and completely useless when it comes to web browsing.

Is the same thing with OWB as well.. Once it finally showed some progress development just died even though there was bugs that made it not suited for every day use.

And as rest of the world progresses we are left even further behind....

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Tomas 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 21-Aug-2013 1:02:51
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@geit
And the tone of your replies is another reason why I gave up on this community... Developers of both sides act arrogant to pretty much any question. What might be obvious to you developers might not be so obvious to average amigan.

And about PPC... If you dont change architecture your beloved OS will vanish as well.. It has been clear for a long time that PPC is now a dead platform on the desktop. No one except the wealthy or biggest fanboys can ever justify anymore to buy a overpriced and underperforming PPC systems.

Last edited by Tomas on 21-Aug-2013 at 01:06 AM.

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Spectre660 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 21-Aug-2013 12:35:00
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3891
From: Unknown

Rogue Speaks .

http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6056&forum=3

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vox 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 21-Aug-2013 12:37:56
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@Tomas

Quote:
And about PPC... If you dont change architecture your beloved OS will vanish as well.. It has been clear for a long time that PPC is now a dead platform on the desktop. No one except the wealthy or biggest fanboys can ever justify anymore to buy a overpriced and underperforming PPC systems.


AROS has cheap and acessable hardware but it doesn`t save the day, as well as MorphOS.

Its anyway small community. PPC still exists as X2000 progress shows, and is well enough to have
some performance level (way better then 68k). Not that I do wish otherwise, but MorphOS path
shows it will take quite long time until we are there.

I don`t feel extremely wealthy neither a biggest fanboy - I wish to see it progress, and much as hardware,
I do agree software like TW or Libre Office are most needed to make it a productive machine.

And that is most valuable.

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Daedalus 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 21-Aug-2013 13:14:12
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@Fairdinkem

I'd go eariler. Didn't 256 colour VGA come out in 1987? It wasn't 24-bit colour , more 18-bit like HAM8, but they had a single plane with an 8-bit pixel width making all the difference. IIRC chunky. The Amiga should have got an increased pixel width for a hybrid plannar/chunky display.

Yes, this is true, but 256 colours or increased palettes were far from standard until well into the '90s.

Quote:

Okay we had copper lists and sprites with the blitter. Even with a 12-bit palette. But I was always disappointed when I saw how slow a CLI window was compared to a blazing fast MSDOS CLI. So I'm comparing a window interface to a hardware text mode, but either way it made the Amiga look bad.

Yes, I remember this too, comparing my vanilla A1200 to a 486 DX2 PC. I even wrote benchmarking programs to compare the two. DOS was incredibly fast, but of course that was hardware text mode which the Amiga totally lacks, so apples and oranges. I found it far more impressive that I could use the desktop on the Amiga minutes before I could on the 486, and as for listing the contents of a folder? No competition, with all the grinding and swapping that Windows 3.1 had to do. And that's not even considering how much more expensive the 486 was at the time.

Anyway, yes the Amiga chipset was already falling behind in some aspects, but because it took a totally different route to a similar result, it had advantages in other areas too, so it really depends on what you mean by "behind".

Anyway, slightly off topic, sorry about that

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 21-Aug-2013 13:19:54
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1330
From: CRO

Hyperion/A-eon and/or The Twins should never have bothered with projects like Timberwolf or LibreOffice.
Instead, what they should focus on is getting things like QT and JAVA released and integrated with AmigaOS, thus enabling other people, that is devs, to program more easily for Amiga and enable easier porting from other platforms(afterall, 90% of OS4 software is ports, so why not make it easier). The other thing is what should be given higher priority is drivers, support and core OS features.

I see no point in Friedens doing all what they do now... it will always be a half-arsed job(like Timberwolf is) when they have too much work and too little time and nobody will be happy.

Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 21-Aug-2013 at 01:20 PM.

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Daedalus 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 21-Aug-2013 13:20:10
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

Anyway, to get back on topic, yes it's unfinished, and I think there was some justification for the bounty being released based on the fact that the base source code changed dramatically while they were working on it. Firefox itself shifted to a different versioning system which had implications too. So the original bounty didn't really apply. Maybe it should have been held off maybe it was in recognition of all the extra work which was done as a result. I can't remember. All I know is that it works reasonably well on my A1-XE, but I don't use that for browsing these days at all. No amount of optimisation is going to get Timberwolf (or OWB for that matter) working the same speed as Chromium on a dual 3GHz Linux box. So that's what I use instead.

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AmigaMania 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 22-Aug-2013 0:22:28
#37 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2012
Posts: 34
From: Hungary, Budapest

The Timberwolf is a disaster!
The Timberwolf is a joke!

Mod's Note: That may be your opinion, and it may ALSO be an opinion shared by many users, but posting a comment like that here is simply trolling. So I am processing that A/R against you.
In future -- think it, say it outloud, even shout it if you must... but please don't post it.

Last edited by Yo on 23-Aug-2013 at 01:40 PM.

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realize 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 22-Aug-2013 2:07:30
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: nyc

@billt

Quote:
We've been waiting for you, what took you so long? I'm surprised that no one has been sqwaking about your silence about this for so long...


Umm yeah kind of sad nobody else has the balls to speak this things out.. what are the fanboys afraid of? Hyperion wont post here? no status updates? They wont release a roadmap? oh , thats what we have already lol


Oh and Please no more "two more weeks" on here please. Its a Bplan/Pegasos morphos inside joke. Go back to the stupid "when its done" plz

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realize 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 22-Aug-2013 2:09:19
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: nyc

@Signal

Quote:
@realize I just tried ALL the tests and Timberwolf did pretty good. It compaired well with browsers about 1 to 2 years old. However, browsermark.rightware site kept telling me my network connection sucks, as if I didn't already know, but TW did not crash or hang in any of the tests.


What are you joking? Lets see some proof of this absurd statement. Because you must the only person on earth that can get this kind of usability/stability out of it. Whats weird is like 2 versions ago it was kinda usable on my peg2 but latest version is plain useless.

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vox 
Re: Where is the TIMBERWOLF Update?
Posted on 22-Aug-2013 7:52:05
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
Instead, what they should focus on is getting things like QT and JAVA released and integrated with AmigaOS, thus enabling other people, that is devs, to program more easily for Amiga and enable easier porting from other platforms(afterall, 90% of OS4 software is ports, so why not make it easier). The other thing is what should be given higher priority is drivers, support and core OS features. I see no point in Friedens doing all what they do now... it will always be a half-arsed job(like Timberwolf is) when they have too much work and too little time and nobody will be happy.


Agreed, however seems QT and Java will eventually happen thanks to someone elses work.

It would be good if these projects were assigned to more developers, but as it is, its another waiting circle with hope, one by one, they will be finalized. All 3 (W3D/Gallium, TW and Libre) are quite crucial
for OS productivity.

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