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PosterThread
Hammer 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 1-Oct-2020 2:00:06
#361 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4245
From: Australia

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:
My Ryzen 9 3900X blows that solution away. Again, running any UAE on Power64 attracts WinUAE/Amiga Forever PC competition.


Please explain how this makes a PowerPC core running on current FPGA tech faster than a PowerPC ASIC?

Running any UAE (software emulated Amiga) on Power64 attracts WinUAE/Cloanto Amiga Forever PC competition. Reminder, Mike Battilana(of Cloanto)'s Amiga Inc owns "AmigaOS" 3.X name and related IP.

I have a classic AmigaOS 4.1 FE and when I run a WHDload classic Amiga game, it triggers UAE. There's no attempt to run 68K Amiga games in a virtual machine or a sandbox.

I didn't make the argument for FPGA PowerPC i.e. you inserted this argument.

Last edited by Hammer on 01-Oct-2020 at 02:01 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 1-Oct-2020 2:03:58
#362 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4245
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:
Vampire V4's price tag is EURO 579. Price a new Power64 solution for about EURO 579.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMkFuS_ZkrM

I'm still waiting for "A500/A1200" replacement from the PowerPC/Power64 camp.

PowerPC/Power64 has IBM which is a problem i.e. at least Vampire V2's price range is near to A500's price range.

Last edited by Hammer on 01-Oct-2020 at 02:05 AM.

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Rob 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 1-Oct-2020 19:30:44
#363 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6051
From: S.Wales

@Hammer

Quote:
I didn't make the argument for FPGA PowerPC i.e. you inserted this argument.


You replied to this post.

Link.

@bennymee

Quote:
No need for a fpga, Power and PowerPC's can still be ordered ,:)


They are also far more powerful than any FPGA solution could offer at the same price with current technology."


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Hammer 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 2-Oct-2020 14:47:51
#364 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4245
From: Australia

@Rob

Where's your PPC solution that matches Apollo's Vampire price range FOR the Amiga platform?

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Rob 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 2-Oct-2020 16:24:47
#365 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6051
From: S.Wales

@Hammer

Why do you keep asking questions that aren't related to the post I made?

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 21-Jan-2021 14:39:46
#366 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@thread

"We're proud to announce Kestrel -- the world's first open HDL / open firmware soft BMC, built on POWER and capable of IPLing existing OpenPOWER systems!"

https://twitter.com/RaptorCompSys/status/1352083071462477827?cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 21-Jan-2021 at 02:40 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 21-Jan-2021 19:09:40
#367 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4245
From: Australia

@Rob

Again, where's your PowerPC solution that matches Apollo's Vampire price range FOR the Amiga platform? Your argument is not complete when there is a cost factor for the consumer.

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g01df1sh 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 21-Jan-2021 22:06:21
#368 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1734
From: UK

@Hammer

There is no sub £600 PPC solution apart from A1222 which is still not public yet. What the vampire team have achieved is amazing strange that it maybe 68k looks to have a better future than PPC Amigas at the moment. X5000 is way to expensive for a system that as of yet still doesnt use all the motherboards/cpu features.

Scrap PPC and move to Arm.

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Hypex 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 22-Jan-2021 16:06:27
#369 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10247
From: Greensborough, Australia

@g01df1sh

The A1222 also lacks a compiler for the esoteric CPU just like the Vampire, which is unsupported in current GCC. The Vampire has no compiler for AMMX, which is forever pending now in GCC. It's worse for the A1222 as normal PPC code will crash so needs an emulator to hack it in. But the Vampire can run common 68K code fine. Still, it may have been popular to hand optimise 68K back in the day, but expecting coders to port video players and hand optimise it to use AMMX is not practical.

Last edited by Hypex on 22-Jan-2021 at 04:08 PM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 9-Feb-2021 11:01:28
#370 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@thread

CPU / GPU power based
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LibreSOC-2021

PDF:
https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/libresocproject/attachments/paper/4569/export/events/attachments/libresocproject/paper/4569/fosdem2021_libresoc.pdf



Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 09-Feb-2021 at 11:12 AM.
Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 09-Feb-2021 at 11:01 AM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 9-Feb-2021 11:23:14
#371 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

https://libre-soc.org/

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OldAmigan 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 9-Feb-2021 19:31:49
#372 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Dec-2003
Posts: 655
From: Dumfries, Scotland

@AmigaBlitter

I can't pretend I understood a quarter of that but very interesting anyway

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 11-Feb-2021 8:11:32
#373 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@OldAmigan

Since Power ISA is open source and anyone can implement their own design based on that architecture, we can see new chips emerging based on the OpenPower architecture.
This SoC is very interesting for the Amiga and includes a GPU and a VPU in the processor.
It is designed to be very fast even if it uses low power. It is suitable for smartphones, tablets, laptops and workstations.
Since the teams are asking for collaboration, it would be nice if some talents from the Amiga world were to participate in this project.
For example, Hans De Ruiter is really very talented in GPU and would have in mind his own GPU to design. Gunnar is very good at CPU design (albeit on the CISC side). Others are good at FPGA and there are really good Amiga programmers around.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 11-Feb-2021 13:20:21
#374 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11818
From: Norway

@AmigaBlitter

Yes it possible to make powerpc chip with right stuff, (some custom chip integrated), AltiVec, I love some real 64bit integer registers, some proper 64bit Interger load / store, instructions, found that actually had to use doubles to get 64bit register. It was copy function so did not realty care, it might be that 128bit AltiVec can also be used in some cases, 256bit SIMD instruction set might also really nice, but not sure how practical, my biggest problem, is because its a different language. Can’t remember the instructions.

Planar conversion using 16bit conversion matrix to 8bit,
128bit is 16 x 8bit gfx pixels, that’s 16 pixels that read / written in one operation.
(64bits) 8 bytes * 65535 = is only 524280 bytes, (5 Kbytes)
(128bits) 16 bytes * 65535 = is only 1048560 bytes (1 Mbytes)

I bet EUAE graphics is not optimized.

It’s no point now, because so few people have AltiVec, huge investment only for a few people.
another question comes to mind, if a GPU shader can’t do the same work, by using its trillion cores.

No doubt are things done really inefficiently.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Feb-2021 at 01:27 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Feb-2021 at 01:27 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Feb-2021 at 01:25 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Feb-2021 at 01:22 PM.

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Rose 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 11-Feb-2021 19:25:47
#375 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 903
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

AmigaBlitter wrote:

Since the teams are asking for collaboration, it would be nice if some talents from the Amiga world were to participate in this project.
For example, Hans De Ruiter is really very talented in GPU and would have in mind his own GPU to design. Gunnar is very good at CPU design (albeit on the CISC side). Others are good at FPGA and there are really good Amiga programmers around.



This needs to happen, It would be most Amigan thing ever!


How about checking the guy leading the project, who's track record has for example collecting ~$250k funding for SBC in 2016 which funders still doesn't have. Explanations for delays are top notch and on level of best bullshit explanations ever heard in Amiverse. It's always someone elses fault, not because basic eletronics is hard.

Bonus sector! What little exists of LibreSoc is in python (Because he's software engineer he says), so Captain obvious says that it won't be ready any time soon (Tho it was supposed to be taped out last october, there might be a pattern here).

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 11-Feb-2021 19:38:04
#376 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@Rose

Quote:
This needs to happen, It would be most Amigan thing ever!


Lol!

Who knows?

If you have any of the above skills, you're enrolled.


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Rob 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 12-Feb-2021 18:40:04
#377 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6051
From: S.Wales

@Rose

Perhaps they could get Ryan Czerwinski on board.

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OneTimer1 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 12-Feb-2021 19:18:39
#378 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 669
From: Unknown


PowerPC vs. FPGA?

Well normally a CPU runs circle around a FPGA with a softcore doing the same business.

And no one would ever consider building using an FPGA as 68k replacement if the 68k would have been developed further. If we would have a source for a 400MHz 68k with 2 MB of cache, we would laugh about people tinkering on FPGA boards.

---

PPC boards in the performance range of a Vampire ?Some years ago you could buy a 400MHz Efika for around 120€.

But this discussion Vampire vs. PPS/Power is useless.

Vampire is a retro oriented product, a Vampire V4 might be the fastest 68k(!) Amiga compatible computer on earth and even cheaper than a used A1200 with an accelerator board.

Power is a dying CPU platform that is replaced by ARM in the embedded market, but even the lowest performance Power CPUs are running circles around an FPGA with a softcore (if available).

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 12-Feb-2021 22:41:29
#379 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1204
From: Athens/Greece

Vampires are fast as long as you compare them even against a heavily expanded classic system. But are utterly slow when PPC comes into the equation. I have seen the Vamp loading 10 times slower compared to my MacG4/Mos setup DevilutionX, I have run the riva benchmark in the past and my system appeared to be 5 times faster or so. Plus my Mac/Mos cost about half the price (with registration). There was/is a thread from ppa/pl (I think) where they benchmark the rendering of a LW scene. AFAIR only the highest end i7 were significantly faster than a G5/X5000 (and the G5 is 15 years old architecture) not sure this flatters UAE per se). But anyway, if you dislike emulation (i7/UAE), feel the need for speed and want to be chained on an archaic version of our preferred OS then Vamp, is all the way in. Perhaps this extra speed might enable better DeluxePaint results, lol ,'cause there isn't any real need for extra speed on OS3 :) Over years I 've read delusional comments that the speed of Vampire might/will enable new apps to be created/ported for a slightly more everyday usage of AOS 3.x. Most probably 99.99% of those people have no idea what they are talking about : take Wayfarer and its need on cpu circles when it comes to say: javascript, period. How on earth will this ever squeeze to an fpga (which appears to be 5-10 times slower than current competitive ppc setups)? Even when consumer priced FPGA might reach the speed of a modest G4 (during the next... decade), most probably the nowadays ppc OSes might have migrated to other newer architectures and the cpu needs for everyday usage will have grown even further.

Last edited by Cool_amigaN on 12-Feb-2021 at 10:44 PM.
Last edited by Cool_amigaN on 12-Feb-2021 at 10:42 PM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Some Power related news
Posted on 12-Feb-2021 22:48:16
#380 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 496
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

ONTO THE DARKNET

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