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      /  Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
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PosterThread
Tomppeli 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 14:57:07
#121 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2004
Posts: 1652
From: Home land of Santa, sauna, sisu and salmiakki

Quote:
there is only so much a programmer can do in 24hours


Two guys can't do the work load of 20-200 people, no matter how smart they are.

The community is too small and I guess many are too tired to bother anymore.

Many people don't seem to realize it's not the 1980s anymore.

Last edited by Tomppeli on 16-Sep-2016 at 03:03 PM.

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eliyahu 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 15:05:47
#122 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1961
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@Tomppeli

Quote:
Many people don't seem to realize it's not the 1980s anymore

many people don't seem to realize it's not the early 2000s anymore, either. the constant point-scoring, the lightning-quickness to jump on any perceived slight, the holding of grudges beyond a decade... it really begins to affect people's enjoyment of the hobby.

so long as people fail to recognize that a lack of civility has a significant impact on others, the community will continue to see burnout like this.

-- eliyahu

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"Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. When the laws do not operate, there is no reality. All of this is unreal."

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cgutjahr 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 15:06:21
#123 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@SimplePPC

Quote:

No, you haven't "paid for a working browser". You have paid for the beta (with "you" being the people that donated, not the people that are complaining loudly here about bullshit conspiracy theories).

The bounty description says:

"The goal of the project is a port of the Firefox web browser and associated technologies to AmigaOS 4.1"

Nobody paid for an unstable beta version with plenty of bugs left to fix, because that's not what the bounty description says. Not to mention that people were assured back then that of course the port would be properly finished. And that includes me getting some rather emotional mails from Thomas, who thought me implying otherwise in some AW discussion was utterly insulting.

Quote:

We have released the source as a gesture towards the Amiga community.

You were required to hand over the bounties "to an interested party that can continue development of Timberwolf" because you hadn't released an update within "12 months after the release of a new major version of Firefox" (all quotes from the bounty description).

Handing them over to Solie - who clearly wasn't in a position to continue development - and not letting him share them with anybody did obviously not meet the bounty's requirements. Finally releasing the sources to the public was nothing but a (long overdue) fix of that problem.

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OlafS25 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 15:18:57
#124 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6368
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

that expecially the frieden brothers polarize is caused not only by community members but also the friedens themselves... I found a lot of threads where they (do not know which of them it was) was unnecessary unpolite or even aggressive...

I could dig the threads if needed but you certainly know some too

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eliyahu 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 15:38:12
#125 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1961
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@OlafS25

yup. i know some of the threads you're referring to.

-- eliyahu

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zzd10h 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 15:57:54
#126 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 21-May-2012
Posts: 1077
From: France

@AlicePPC
I just asked build instructions by mail to Frieden.


@OS4 dev
Is somebody tried to compile it from the repository ?

Thank you

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eliyahu 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 16:04:32
#127 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1961
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@zzd10h

try contacting ssolie. i believe he got it to build at some point in the past, and he's the current maintainer of the source IIRC.

-- eliyahu

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zzd10h 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 17:25:37
#128 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 21-May-2012
Posts: 1077
From: France

@eliyahu

Hans-Joerg quickly and kindly replied and gave me instructions to cross-compile it under Linux.

Unfortunately, I don't have a Linux box.



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ferrels 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 17:58:00
#129 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 922
From: Arizona

@SimplePPC

Quote:
Yes Timberwolf has issue's and nobody is denying that, but there is only so much a programmer can do in 24hours.



24 hours? You must be joking. They had 2 man-years to work on this project.

And then they tried to make it sound like they were doing the Amiga community a favor by finally releasing some code without any build instructions. The bounty REQUIRED them to release the code.

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SimplePPC 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 18:32:27
#130 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 109
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@SimplePPC

[quote]Yes Timberwolf has issue's and nobody is denying that, but there is only so much a programmer can do in 24hours.



24 hours? You must be joking. They had 2 man-years to work on this project.

Why do you assume both of them worked on it for 2 years straight ? If they did OS4.1 wouldn't be were it is by now. I would kindly ask all of you to try and remember that OS3.x -> OS4.x is a huge step forward. I'm aware some of you would expect more but it is what it is. Besides porting Firefox , technology had to be added to OS.4 like Shared Objects to make this work. And again, this was NOT EASY, if it was someone else could have done but no-one did. Porting to other platforms and supporting those also takes time.


And then they tried to make it sound like they were doing the Amiga community a favor by finally releasing some code without any build instructions. The bounty REQUIRED them to release the code.

Can you please tell me were you can read that they did the community a 'favour' by releasing the sourcecode ? And yes Thomas said he would provide build instructiosn, but again things got in the way and no-one asked. Zzdh1 asked and he got a reply. Ask in a normal fashion and you will get a normal reply.

As said in this thread before, Steven Solie got access to the sourcecode but also has been doing a lot of other stuff so it was left on the backburner but not forgotten. Also the amount of developers that was really interested or applied to help out can be counted on 1 hand.

The sourcecode has been released almost a year ago, either no one noticed or no one cared. But it's unfair to blame the Friedens again for this. Blame me if you wish :)

A lot of you seem to forget that this is NOT a hobby project, Software development costs money, porting huge projects like Firefox and LibreOffice takes EFFORT, PERSISTANCE and MONEY.



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ferrels 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 18:58:57
#131 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 922
From: Arizona

@SimplePPC


Quote:
Why do you assume both of them worked on it for 2 years straight ? If they did OS4.1 wouldn't be were it is by now. I would kindly ask all of you to try and remember that OS3.x -> OS4.x is a huge step forward. I'm aware some of you would expect more but it is what it is. Besides porting Firefox , technology had to be added to OS.4 like Shared Objects to make this work. And again, this was NOT EASY, if it was someone else could have done but no-one did. Porting to other platforms and supporting those also takes time.


I'm not assuming anything. It's very simple math used in most industries. Two men, given a task projected to take one year, is 2 man-years in time. How the Friedens managed that time was entirely up to them, but nonetheless, the 2 of them had an entire year to PORT a project, not develop one from the ground up. And once they had decided that the project was complete, they delayed releasing the code and then stated "We have released the source as a gesture towards the Amiga community", as if they were doing us a favor instead of abiding by the terms of the bounty. That doesn't sit well with many people.

Last edited by ferrels on 16-Sep-2016 at 07:01 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 16-Sep-2016 at 07:01 PM.

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Cheese 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 19:06:54
#132 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Posts: 314
From: Unknown

@SimplePPC



They took a bloody long time to ultimatly deliver a trainwreck. And after that no fixes, no reflection, no nothing. But yeah, blame the community for being immature whining crybabies.

_________________
x86/MorphOS 4.0

"Delving into the past can be a dangerous exercise." -hyperionmp

"I've been a supporter of "REACTION" GUI because is an Amiga OS thing." -Snuffy

"I personally prefer a vision of do'ers and makers rather than

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Rose 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 19:10:36
#133 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@SimplePPC

Quote:
A lot of you seem to forget that this is NOT a hobby project


Tru dat. You get usually better quality from hobby projects.

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Yssing 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 19:26:49
#134 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1084
From: Unknown

They got payed 6000 euros for, what some claim to be a 2 year man-hour job, and that is some how to much, I have used Timberwolf and it worked fine on my SAM440.
By the way, where I work, we charge at least 200 euros per hour, so how many hours would 6000 euros buy you, and would it be realistic to port such a massive project in 30 hours? I don't think so.

I am amazed at how many MOS users use every waking opportunity to bash hyperion, AOS4.x or anything related to it. Please just don't, it would be better for every one if you didn't.

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PR 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 19:36:47
#135 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1961
From: Suomi-Finland

Still living on the Golden eighties untill..

(Just can´t understand the fight)

Work as done over here!

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ferrels 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 20:09:37
#136 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 922
From: Arizona

@Yssing

Quote:
They got payed 6000 euros for, what some claim to be a 2 year man-hour job, and that is some how to much, I have used Timberwolf and it worked fine on my SAM440. By the way, where I work, we charge at least 200 euros per hour, so how many hours would 6000 euros buy you, and would it be realistic to port such a massive project in 30 hours? I don't think so. I am amazed at how many MOS users use every waking opportunity to bash hyperion, AOS4.x or anything related to it. Please just don't, it would be better for every one if you didn't.


I'm sorry but 6000 Euros is quite a lot for what was delivered and it's doubtful if we'll ever know how many hours were really spent porting Timberwolf, but your estimate of 30 hours is probably about right based on the comments from quite a few users about the lack of stability and bugs. That's just 15 hours per sibling...and then we had to wait a couple years for the code release. I think they intentionally delayed releasing the code until OWB and Netsurf were more mature so that no one would notice or care about what a terrible hack job Timberwolf had become.

What other reason would they have for the delay in releasing the code? Did they need a serious vacation after porting Timberwolf? Did their router explode or maybe their dog ate the source code and they had to start from scratch?

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Cheese 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 20:15:39
#137 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Posts: 314
From: Unknown

*double post

Last edited by Cheese on 16-Sep-2016 at 08:16 PM.

_________________
x86/MorphOS 4.0

"Delving into the past can be a dangerous exercise." -hyperionmp

"I've been a supporter of "REACTION" GUI because is an Amiga OS thing." -Snuffy

"I personally prefer a vision of do'ers and makers rather than

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Yssing 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 20:38:18
#138 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1084
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Actually you are wrong, 6000 euros is not a lot of money for a project of this size.
No one, and I emphasize NO ONE, did the job they did, no one could or would do it.
Did they deliver? well I am one of those who used Timberwolf, beta or not.

Get over it, please...

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cgutjahr 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 21:01:24
#139 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@Yssing

Quote:

Actually you are wrong, 6000 euros is not a lot of money for a project of this size.

It's completely irrelevant if it's "a lot of money" for that kind of job (*): the donors agreed to pay that much for the job and the Frieden brothers agreed to do the job for that kind of money. If HJF thinks he deserves special treatment because "it was just a favour to the community", he should have mentioned that when the bounty was started, not five years later.

(*) and I doubt we're going to find out by having a bunch of people with no experience in that area discuss it to death

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Yasu 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 21:17:06
#140 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2015
Posts: 224
From: Stockholm, Sweden

You are not being a gentleman by letting someone else for free finish the job you where paid to do. Just saying.

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