@Raffaele

Building custom PPC desktop hardware is a very, very stupid idea. That's why nobody else does it, and why the market is so small that A-EONs overpriced, underpowered and barely available offerings are (nearly) enough to saturate it.

By daydreaming about building your own "serious" PPC motherboard, you're not just implying everybody who tried before you is a lot more stupid than you - you're also trying to fix one of the symptoms, not one of the actual problems.

The first of those problems would be:

"why the f#? do we still insist on using custom hardware?"

Try to get some answers for that first. Not from Amigakit, obviously - dealers love selling hardware, due to the bigger profit margins - go ask Hyperion. And don't give up asking until they come up with something that's not a joke ("piracy", "everybody would be using windows instead").

If they actually come up with an answer that convinces you and the 10000 contributors you'd need to fund development of some prototypes, you go and tackle problem #2:

"why the f#? has Hyperion still not released a honest status update that details what's required financially and legally to revive OS development? Why the f#? are they repeating the same old crap about SMP or Gallium instead they already stated two years ago?"

Good luck with that one... Let's say you even manage to solve problem #2. You and your 10000 contributors have been convinced that (a) custom hardware is the way to go and (b) the OS is not dead. That leaves you with problem #3:

"what does it take to have Hyperion port their OS to my fantasy hardware? Who pays for driver development?"

That one should be easy. Getting the OS ready in time and delivering all the required drivers with the inital release is one of Hyperion's key strengths after all. Now you can start a crowd-funding effort to develop custom PPC hardware.

Or you could just do what any sane person would do: Buy 4.1 Classic and run it on WinUAE and make up your mind if you really want to run this on an actual computer - because right now, lack of hardware is definitely not OS4's biggest problem.

(Edit: "*lack of* hardware", not "hardware")

Last edited by cgutjahr on 05-Nov-2015 at 06:16 PM.

@cgutjahr

Quote:

Buy 4.1 Classic and run it on WinUAE and make up your mind if you really want to run this on an actual computer

Exactly what I did.

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because right now, hardware is definitely not OS4's biggest problem.

Actually it is. 1000 EUR for second computer is simply too much.

@pavlor

Quote:

Actually it is. 1000 EUR for second computer is simply too much.

Good point, I was referring to lack of hardware of course. I edited my post, thanks.

[columbus egg]


Actually it seems to me in all those brainstorming the main and almost irremovable obstacle is Hyperion-AEON and their willingness/capacity to port Amiga Os4 in those boards; so if you need results in short time i would advise to take the leap, forget about Os4, dig the AROS PPC port out of limbo, port and use this! So ok, you will lose temporarily the capacity to use existing apps (until someone build a compatibility layer or port latest WinUAE) but you will gain another OPEN platform, with no artificial barriers, no NDA and no price upfront!

Ok, you will also lose 'teh name' and the (feeble) legacy with the original but this in the long term is absolutely secondary.

Now let the slaugher begin!

[/columbus egg]

Last edited by saimon69 on 05-Nov-2015 at 06:50 PM.
Last edited by saimon69 on 05-Nov-2015 at 06:50 PM.
Last edited by saimon69 on 05-Nov-2015 at 06:49 PM.

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Binary Doodles - English language AROS Blog

@OlafS25

Quote:

why I reacted at all when "X86 is no solution" came up again because I disagree there. I read the same in comments from both Ben H. and the Frieden brothers long time ago. The thesis was BeOS failed on X86 because it competed with Windows there. Thus AmigaOS would fail too on X86 because of that so it is better to be on another hardware platform. I am aware of the negativity of Amigans regarding standard hardware in the past (I was one of those too) but time have changed and most people have moved on. "Intel outside" is out too today, most people use standard hardware at home. My thesis is BeOS did not fail because it run on X86 but it had no competitive software base. And I have also the thesis that it is wrong to assume AmigaOS does not compete with Windows or Linux just because it runs on exotic hardware. People always compare and decide. The software base is always smaller on a exotic OS and worse it runs on weak expensive hardware. But most software today is developed to run on fast hardware, nobody is optimizing it for embedded hardware or doing necessary changes that it can be ported to exotic hardware almost noone uses today. My view is PPC was 2003 the wrong choice and it is even more wrong 2015 or 2016. If people want a future for AmigaOS (not only in UAE) then they should push for a ISA change.

Quote:

it is impossible to compete with the software base on windows, mac or even Linux. At best there should be certain segments covered with special applications (or modern: Apps). And here I mean unique software, not ports or slightly updated amiga software. That is enough to keep existing users at best but will not bring new people from outside. But of course that is easier to ask than to do I do not want to spoil people the fun... if there are really enough people that would invest in a new PPC hardware then Raffaele should try.

I agree with most of this, maybe all of it. Few applications == few users. Projects that do not take this into account will eventually die out. Which is not to say that they shouldn't have been done, or continue to be done. Amiga on PPC may have been doomed from the start, but people are enjoying the outcome, so it is worth pursuing. I may get on board for a while myself, if I can justify the costs. Both AROS and MorphOS are in similar situations.

AmigaOS is an obsolete software architecture running on an obsolete hardware platform. The same for MorphOS, but it looks like they may switch to a viable hardware architecture. AROS is an obsolete software architecture that is already running on a viable hardware architecture. The common thread in all this is that the Amiga software architecture is obsolete. This was already apparent in 1993. But if we keep this going long enough, we can say with Galadriel, "together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."

One alternative is to create an Amiga-like environment on top of an existing software architecture and work on it top-down, improving and replacing components as things progress. This has been badly done in the recent past -- Commodore OS Vision springs to mind -- but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be done better. The big advantage to this approach is that it starts out with a lot of apps, which makes it possible to attract new users, and the system can be used as it is developed. The downside is that it is not interesting at all for people who enjoy the hardware side of things.

Last edited by bison on 05-Nov-2015 at 07:38 PM.

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@bison

Quote:

One alternative is to create an Amiga-like environment on top of an existing software architecture and work on it top-down, improving and replacing components as things progress. The big advantage to this approach is that it starts out with a lot of apps, which makes it possible to attract new users, and the system can be used as it is developed. The downside is that it is not interesting at all for people who enjoy the hardware side of things.

The AmigaOS wasn't built from the ground up so this strategy shouldn't seem foreign.

But why can't you have it both ways?

If you have a platform-agnostic OS it opens up far more possibilities for custom hardware.

@ne_one

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The AmigaOS wasn't built from the ground up so this strategy shouldn't seem foreign.

It mostly was, unless you are referring to the use of Tripos as AmigaDOS.

Quote:

But why can't you have it both ways? If you have a platform-agnostic OS it opens up far more possibilities for custom hardware.

You are probably right. If I had to pick a single architecture it would be x86_64 just because it is common, but I would really like to see ARM supported as well. I really like the Raspberry Pi 2.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Once you move to a more powerful and cheap ISA ... , doesn't make sense to continue supporting the old one. Losing last connection to original Amiga computers (PowerUP cards) would be bad move. Don´t search logic in it, entire AmigaOS (and Amiga in general) platform is based on passion.

It's not a question of logic. It's simply a matter of numbers, that cannot sustain such strong linkage to the PowerUP cards.

Amiga sold more than 5 MILLION pieces, whereas the PowerUPs sold around 10 THOUSANDS cards. How an heritage can be subjugated by such scant minority?

Amiga left the 68K platform as its heritage to the millions of users that were lucky to get one of those wonderful machines.

The post-Amiga community is a small niche which cannot pretend to be compared to the splendor of the "good old times".

Talking about passion, I see a fire of passion every time that I touch the Amiga argument with whatever kind of people I talk about it. And 99.999% of time they don't know of any PowerUP, or in general of any PowerPC "heritage/follow-up" of the platform...

@cdimauro

Quote:

And 99.999% of time they don't know of any PowerUP, or in general of any PowerPC "heritage/follow-up" of the platform...

What I hear about NG OSs from this kind of people? Does it run on Amiga? If they hear "Yes, but some expensive CPU card is needed", their answer is usually "Wow!". That is why it is so important...

@pavlor: you can take a look at the comments written to my Amiga articles, to a see very different reactions.

@Raffaele

There was already a failed bounty for a MPC8640D motherboard

http://www.power2people.org/projects/mpc8610/

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@cdimauro

Quote:

Amiga left the 68K platform as its heritage to the millions of users that were lucky to get one of those wonderful machines. The post-Amiga community is a small niche which cannot pretend to be compared to the splendor of the "good old times".

And both factions have streams that continue to provide active development and support.

A NG OS would mandate emulation and transitioning so that developers could port/create applications painlessly.

But to move forward things will need to be sacrificed.

@pavlor

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pavlor wrote: @klx300r Quote: This is the where I fail to understand how any Amiga flavour OS will benefit from moving to x86! 8 years old computer of my father has 2x faster CPU than X5000/40. Don´t even ask about today price.

Well, see it the other side: your father's 8 years computer cost now almost nothing if you want to sell; the Amigaone X5000 in 8 years will cost the same or more money if you want to sell

Last edited by Fransexy on 05-Nov-2015 at 09:07 PM.
Last edited by Fransexy on 05-Nov-2015 at 09:06 PM.

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@Fransexy

Quote:

There was already a failed bounty for a MPC8640D motherboard

The Amiga is a wasteland of failed initiatives and empty promises.

Raffaele may be a dreamer but he has taken the initiative to express a proposal and succeeded in generating meaningful discussion. That's a rarity in this community.

Quote:

No PowerPC, No Fun

No Software, No Bueno.

@ne_one

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ne_one wrote: @Fransexy Quote: There was already a failed bounty for a MPC8640D motherboard The Amiga is a wasteland of failed initiatives and empty promises. Raffaele may be a dreamer but he has taken the initiative to express a proposal and succeeded in generating meaningful discussion. That's a rarity in this community.

Exactly like the bounty i had linked before in my post:

https://www.google.es/search?q=proposal+for+a+powerpc+motherboard&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=H8o7VtqqMIn1arfajvAF#q=Market+research+for+new+PowerPC+system




Quote:

No Software, No Bueno.

On x86/Arm you will have even less (Amiga) software

Last edited by Fransexy on 05-Nov-2015 at 09:38 PM.
Last edited by Fransexy on 05-Nov-2015 at 09:32 PM.

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@Fransexy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdUSzsScTFk

Being a dreamer can be both good and bad but without dreams humanity is lost. Everyone still using the Amiga (in any form) are a dreamer or you wouldn't use it or spend time here.

@hotrod

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hotrod wrote: @Fransexy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdUSzsScTFk Being a dreamer can be both good and bad but without dreams humanity is lost. Everyone still using the Amiga (in any form) are a dreamer or you wouldn't use it or spend time here.

I am only pointing that a similar initiative was made in the past and it failed. And the guy that proposed was a developer with knowledge not like the dreamer Raffaele

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@ne_one

Quote:

ne_one wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Amiga left the 68K platform as its heritage to the millions of users that were lucky to get one of those wonderful machines. The post-Amiga community is a small niche which cannot pretend to be compared to the splendor of the "good old times". And both factions have streams that continue to provide active development and support. A NG OS would mandate emulation and transitioning so that developers could port/create applications painlessly. But to move forward things will need to be sacrificed.

Sure, it requires sacrifices both in terms of backward compatibility and effort to port the o.s. and the applications.

However sandboxing is the only solution that makes sense for an o.s. that wants to be modernized, giving a better user experience too.

But resources for such step are missing in the post-Commodore era...

@pavlor

at least in the amiga community nearby interest in NG is limited. At a meeting I visited there was just one Mac Mini with MorphOS and no AmigaOS system at all, all people happily used their classics, I was exote with my notebook and UAE. Of course than can be different depending on the place.

@bison

obviously there is a market for a cheap and good equipped PPC board, difficult for me to say how many will really buy it. For me personal the time of custom hardware is over, it only makes sense when it offers additional value to the customer. The only exception for me would be something FPGA based because it is cool, it is different to standard hardware and it has some geek factor. In opposite to that PPC boards do not offer that, at least to me. It would only make sense to support existing PPC boards but as many rightfully already wrote there are no desktop class boards out there, just boards for the embedded market. That is what Tabor also is.

Regarding Linux use as base, yes and no. It would be difficult to get something that really differentiates from Linux. BTW Aeros from Phoenixkonsole is exactly that, combining Aros and Linux. And yes nobody needs anything amiga related but it is a fun platform so if there is a niche for a fun hardware (Raspberry) there might be also a niche for a fun OS

I think the main problem will be to get a critical mass of applications and some even unique applications and services that make the platform interesting for new people.