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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Aug-2019 13:52:05
#1901 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1292
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

The software blitter runs on a secondary thread of the 68080 CPU and takes full advantage of AMMX. It is easily 200 times faster than a hardware blitter and is flexible enough to emulate all the bugs in the old blitter.


Isn't this what you would normally call "emulation"? What else is emulated with the second CPU thread? What else does the second thread do?

Last edited by kolla on 23-Aug-2019 at 01:53 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 23-Aug-2019 at 01:53 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Aug-2019 14:54:53
#1902 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 126
From: Unknown

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
The software blitter runs on a secondary thread of the 68080 CPU and takes full advantage of AMMX.


Where is documentation for secondary thread of the 68080 CPU and why it is not publicly available?
And this blitter has support for 16 and 24 bit color? If so where is documentation for it?

Quote:
As for 3D, they tried to make a "Polly" core to plot polygons but it could not keep up with an ASIC like the Raspberry Pi 3.


So they decide to not release it at all.

Natami was announced as classic wunderwaffe, as evolution of amiga classic chips.
After eleven years natami/apollo/vampire team still has not most important parts like blitter with support for 16/24 bit graphics with texture mapping.
They made very slow pc with 68k cpu.
At the same time they waste time and work for craps like ammx.

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Lou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Aug-2019 20:44:23
#1903 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3976
From: Rhode Island

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

Samurai_Crow wrote:
@ppcamiga1

[quote]
As for 3D, they tried to make a "Polly" core to plot polygons but it could not keep up with an ASIC like the Raspberry Pi 3.

Which I was banned for trying to explain this to them...

Apparently the concept of dedicated chips designed for parallel-processing is blasphemy to the almighty Apollo...

I'd consider a rename to HYBRIS...
https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Hybris.html

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ferrels 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Aug-2019 22:46:27
#1904 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
Where is documentation for secondary thread of the 68080 CPU and why it is not publicly available? And this blitter has support for 16 and 24 bit color? If so where is documentation for it?



Do you not understand that the Vampire is a closed source project? They're under no obligation to provide documentation regarding graphics internals any more than AMD or nVidia are obligated to release such things to you or anyone else.


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kamelito 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Aug-2019 23:18:29
#1905 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 699
From: Unknown

@ferrels

So nobody will develop for it specifically.

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ferrels 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 4:20:06
#1906 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@kamelito


That's an absurd assertion in light of all the development that takes place in the tech industry on hardware that is closed source.

And there's plenty of development going on for the Vampire, specifically of late, a 68080 Vampire version of Diablo.

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=3¬e=21833

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 8:36:46
#1907 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy

Development that is bringing good results, as it seems:



Diablo Gameplay on Vampire

Besides... I really don't understand all such hate and hypercriticism. Apollo team is doing a ton of Job to create something new that, in their minds, can inherit the legacy of the Amiga and bring it some steps forward.
Of course decisions had to be taken while bringing the project forward and yes, some of them might seem a bit strange and "naive" even to me, a great appreciator all what Vampire is and is bringing to us.
But hey, it is working, and it is bringing results: Diablo is playable, and so are Quake and Quake II, AGA compatibility level raises day by day and they even agreed to create 2 versions for the smalleer FPGA chip to give an FPU to whose demanded it.

Now, it's clear that nobody is forced to like their job or even to appreciate or wellcome it as an Amiga at all. Nobody is aiming your head with a gun.
It's also clear that everybody has a personal idea of how this project should evolve and which features it should have, but hey... The thing I can see is that Apollo team is creating something with a huge effort, while most people is just whining and complaining from the couch, without creating anything new. On top of that, they seem to like bashing other people's work while it would be much, much better for everyone if they just forgot about it and went playing with their classic or PPC Amigas (Which is a good thing to do, after all)

The thing I see here is one of the lowest expressions of human behaviours and is pushing me to delete my account from this forum, after all these years, because I'm starting to be ashamed to be part of it, even if I tend to post very little


Last edited by ErikBauer on 24-Aug-2019 at 08:49 AM.

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megol 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 9:09:03
#1908 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 316
From: Unknown

@ErikBauer
Then do it. Why wait if this is something that irritates you to that degree? But remember that it would also make you drop out of everything else on this site of which Apollo discussions are just a tiny bit. In fact I don't understand why criticism (IMHO often valid) of how the Apollo/Vampire project is doing would be such a problem unless you are deeply invested in it and then perhaps simply skipping reading the relevant threads here instead going to the Apollo forum for updates would be a better choice.

Note that in the past people from the Apollo forum have made claim that they've driven new development even when the developer doesn't use Vampire accelerators nor have any connection to the project. But maybe me writing that is hypocritical and spreading hate?

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 9:24:42
#1909 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy

@megol

I appreciate criticism, when it is costructive and respectful.
Here, what I can read, is mostly uncostructive, unmoderated, irrespectful whining.
It's not just about this Apollo thread, the whole forum is not the place it used to be years ago.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 11:09:36
#1910 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 126
From: Unknown

@ferrels

natami/apollo/vampire team may do what they want.

We are also free to correct their lies about performance and capabilities of vampire.

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Hammer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 11:39:37
#1911 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3945
From: Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
From developer POV everything with cpu faster than original C= blitter starting from a1200 with fast RAM is NG no mather what is called.

From developer POV having chipset is unimportant.

Problem with reimplementation is it is reimplementation. It is replica not original.

Natami goal was to made Amiga what C= made if not bankrupt.

After ten years natami/apollo/vampire team still do not reach this.

vampire is still not as fast and as comfortable as cheap PC from Windows 95 era and still has not 3D.

all this has Amiga ppc for many years.

Amiga ppc is Amiga what C= made if not bankrupt while vampire still not.

It was good decision to go ppc route.

Even if vampire is best 68k extension that was ever made it is still not enough.

vampire still has not 3D and vampire teasm still do not provide necessary tools for developers.

FYI, original Commodore's post-68K hardware is HP's PA-RISC not AIM's PowerPC. Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Hombre_chipset

PS; AIM = Apple, IBM and Motorola.

PC's VGA chunky pixel format was an advantage for Doom/Quake type games. Games like Quake shows clone x86 CPUs like Cyrix CPUs has inferior FPU when compared to classic Pentium.

Commodore's Amiga Hombre based computer with PA-RISC CPU is Windows NT qualified.

Commodore's Hombre game console would be OpenGL based with similar 3D power to Sony's Play Station 1.

X1000/X5000 PowerPC CPU with AMD Radeon GCN or NAVI OpenGL would be closer to Commodore's Amiga Hombre vision.

Last edited by Hammer on 24-Aug-2019 at 11:47 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 24-Aug-2019 at 11:45 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 24-Aug-2019 at 11:42 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 11:55:47
#1912 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11117
From: Norway

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
Problem with reimplementation is it is reimplementation. It is replica not original.


Yes but without any improvements you are stuck with original hardware design. With all it's faults.

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 12:07:46
#1913 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1292
From: Trondheim, Norway

@NutsAboutAmiga

Well, the Apollo projects is to a degree glorifying those flaws - the operating system or user software is no longer in control of the "hardware".

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 12:10:59
#1914 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@ferrels

natami/apollo/vampire team may do what they want.

We are also free to correct their lies about performance and capabilities of vampire.


You surely have proofs of your affermation, haven't you?

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 13:49:11
#1915 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 126
From: Unknown

@ErikBauer

Quote:
hate and hypercriticism.


What you call hate and hypercriticism is fair correction of natami/apollo/vampire team comunism style propaganda of success.

Quote:
Apollo team is doing a ton of Job to create something new that, in their minds, can inherit the legacy of the Amiga and bring it some steps forward.


And what they have after eleven years of work?
one hundredth times faster bitplane blitter.
useless for any graphics made after 1992.
They have nothing that work with 8/16/24 or 32 bit color.
For 8/16/24 or 32 bit color they provide dumb framebuffer and anything is done in old pc way.

Quote:
Quake II


Quake II was not designed to run in 256 color mode. On vampire it look like shit.

Quote:
The thing I can see is that Apollo team is creating something with a huge effort, while most people is just whining and complaining from the couch


real vampire in performance and capabilities is very far away from vampire from natami/apollo/vampire team propaganda of success.

vampire is better than any 68k extension, but still on the level of pentium 1995 just before w95 launch. Still far away from cheap pc from w95 era. And still far away from ppc extensions to amiga.

Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 24-Aug-2019 at 01:49 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 13:56:09
#1916 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 126
From: Unknown

@ErikBauer

Quote:
You surely have proofs of your affermation, haven't you?


Where is documentation for vampire blitter with support for 8/16/24/32 bit of color?
Prove that vampire blitter support for 8/16/24/32 bit of color exist and provide working c/c++ example that anybody can compile and run.

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kamelito 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 15:37:06
#1917 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 699
From: Unknown

@ferrels

AFAIK Diablo is using standard libs nothing Vampire specifics.

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 19:37:42
#1918 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy



Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:

And what they have after eleven years of work?


Pardon, what have YOU done in eleven years to bring something new to the platform, sir?
AFAIK they have their regular lives and this is made in spare time,


Quote:

one hundredth times faster bitplane blitter.


Plus a full working evolution of the 68060 with FPU, new instructions and new internal logic
16Bit evolution of Paula

See? You criticize without telling all facts, emphatizing only what you aim as a weak spot, but the truth is clearly different from what you state.

Quote:

useless for any graphics made after 1992.

Can you explain this sentence, please? I can't understand what you mean

Quote:

They have nothing that work with 8/16/24 or 32 bit color.
For 8/16/24 or 32 bit color they provide dumb framebuffer and anything is done in old pc way.

Again, what do you mean? There are clear examples of copper used on the new bitplane modes, but clearly you haven't seen them.
Otherwise, again, I can't understand the meaning of your sentence, since it clearly does not state a true fact


Quote:

Quake II was not designed to run in 256 color mode. On vampire it look like shit.

This is the same QuakeII engine that can run on any 68k AGA Amiga, the lack of color does not have to do anything with Vampire HW

Quote:

real vampire in performance and capabilities is very far away from vampire from natami/apollo/vampire team propaganda of success.

And the proof of your statement is?

Quote:

vampire is better than any 68k extension, but still on the level of pentium 1995 just before w95 launch. Still far away from cheap pc from w95 era. And still far away from ppc extensions to amiga.


Yes, it clearly is, right now. And, at least to me, this clearly is the aim of the project, can't understand why people complain about that.

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 19:42:46
#1919 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@ErikBauer

Quote:
You surely have proofs of your affermation, haven't you?


Where is documentation for vampire blitter with support for 8/16/24/32 bit of color?
Prove that vampire blitter support for 8/16/24/32 bit of color exist and provide working c/c++ example that anybody can compile and run.


Ah... I understand now... your claims are based on the fact that Vampire still IS WIP and thus there are no documentation and no dedicated compilers yet.
Maybe you missed that they're working to adapt C++ compilers to the new HW...

Besides that, lack of compilers and code in early stage of HW development is not that hard to understand, unless you're used to see them growing by themselves by magic means...

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 20:05:34
#1920 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1292
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ErikBauer

Quote:

Maybe you missed that they're working to adapt C++ compilers to the new HW...


Huh?

Quote:

Besides that, lack of compilers and code in early stage of HW development is not that hard to understand, unless you're used to see them growing by themselves by magic means...


You've never followed CPU development before? Normally, such development is done in tight cooperation with developers of compilators. What's special about Apollo core is that it is developed without any involvement of compilator developers.

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