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PosterThread
OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 20-May-2020 11:10:18
#2001 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5752
From: Unknown

@Lou

That is a strange attitude

I buy a product because I want to have and use something, not because I like the person or team behind

Even if you dislike Gunnar the Vampire is not becoming better or worse

Either the Vampires are worth the money for you or not

If you have several comparable products personal attitudes towards companies can become important, I f.e. dislike apple for its behavior so I would never buy something from them

That is easy possible because there are alternatives everywhere

But vampire is unique, at least for what it is offering

Last edited by OlafS25 on 20-May-2020 at 11:12 AM.

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OneTimer1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 20-May-2020 11:23:03
#2002 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 597
From: Unknown

Quote:

matthey wrote:

I abandoned all my development for the Amiga due to some of the same reasons, people who made development more difficult and because it really doesn't make sense anymore with expensive and rare hardware. The Amiga is dead, RIP.


UAE or AROS are cheap, if you want to support the other AmigaOID flavours ask people if they want compile it for other architectures.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 20-May-2020 at 11:23 AM.

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Lou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 20-May-2020 14:07:15
#2003 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4027
From: Rhode Island

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@Lou

That is a strange attitude

I buy a product because I want to have and use something, not because I like the person or team behind

Even if you dislike Gunnar the Vampire is not becoming better or worse

Either the Vampires are worth the money for you or not

If you have several comparable products personal attitudes towards companies can become important, I f.e. dislike apple for its behavior so I would never buy something from them

That is easy possible because there are alternatives everywhere

But vampire is unique, at least for what it is offering

As this would be a hobby or even casual interest, my alternative is to pick another hobby to spend my hobby-money on.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 20-May-2020 14:11:48
#2004 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5752
From: Unknown

@Lou

of course you can

you can collect stamps or do something with RPi... as you want

if you are not interested in vampire or it is too much money you do not need to buy it

but then say that...

I do not think you would have bought vampire hardware even if Gunnar would be the most polite person in universe

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BigD 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 20-May-2020 14:31:16
#2005 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5313
From: UK

@OlafS25

Vampires are contentious because of Gunnar's insistance about handling the PR / messaging and yeah he's probably mildly narcissistic which then creates a sense of him being the opposite of Trevor Dickinson in the sense that Gunnar seems not to play well with other 'flavours' of Amigans.

All of that to me is less important than him being able to bring these machines to market. I would like this to move from a pre-order cottage industry to suppliers such as AmigaKit actually holding the boards in stock.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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Lou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 20-May-2020 15:38:08
#2006 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4027
From: Rhode Island

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@Lou

of course you can

you can collect stamps or do something with RPi... as you want

if you are not interested in vampire or it is too much money you do not need to buy it

but then say that...

I do not think you would have bought vampire hardware even if Gunnar would be the most polite person in universe

I would have bought it if it did what was advertised. There is no SAGA "chipset". It's just code running on the other cpu thread. I was looking for an Amiga 5000, not an Amiga PS3 that is missing the NVIDIA gpu.

I have an A500 and CD32 [w/SX-1]. I had publicly stated in the past I was going to hold out for the SA, but now I'd much rather spend money elsewhere.

You are correct. A RPI4 can be had for 1/5th the price and delivers much more performance. Here's to hoping AROS runs 100% native on it.

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matthey 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 20-May-2020 20:17:34
#2007 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 716
From: Kansas

Quote:

CosmosUnivers wrote:
It's because of hardware & software divisions we don't have (or very few) new softwares and coders now...

That's the reason they add the AMMX : a new niche inside a niche, to sink more deeply our computer...


When Motorola added new CPU features to the 68020, 68881, etc., did that cause division? If Motorola/Freescale had produced a 68080 with SIMD unit, would that have caused division? Does that mean we should use only the lowest common denominator 68000?

The problem is potentially more than one hardware developer adding extensions. AMD and Intel early on added incompatible extensions to x86 which caused problems for consumers. Once they standardized on x86_64, it became the dominant architecture for performance. The problem is a lack of standard enhanced 68k architecture for the Amiga and the standard would like to be set by one man rather than a standardization committee. Maybe moving the 68k architecture from 68060 in 1994 to Pentium MMX in 1997 is enough for some people or maybe it would be an impediment if trying to produce something halfway modern.

Lack of software standards is a serious problem too. Library version numbers only work with one upgrade path. Supporting and compiling for several incompatible and divergent Amiga flavors is a pain. Linux has hundreds of different flavors and it is not helping them gain market share.

Quote:

Anyway, I don't care about the sinkers, and I still continue to code for fun and to NOT enter into their wanted destructive circle.

Stopping developement is what they want.

So my message to all Amiga developpers : do the exact opposite of what our Amiga elite do !

Sell hardware at resonnable price, keep unity (never add a new division), produce good work to be proud of yourself (not for fame)... That's the only way to be POSITIVE and CONSTRUCTIVE for the our computer...


Over the next 5-15 years, Amiga interest will practically disappear. I asked a teenager the other day if he knew what an Amiga computer was and he did not. Most people less than 30 years old have never heard of the Amiga. I can count on one hand the number of Amiga users I'm aware of in the major city and surrounding area I'm near (one vampire owner, zero Amiga Nowhere Generation owners). Even the Amiga forums (like this one) are dying. Good attempt at motivating me but writing software for a hand full of people is too much work. I believe part of the decline in the quality of Amiga software is due to lack of bug reports because of such a small user base. The sane people have left the Amiga, perhaps to keep their sanity. Maybe I'll go back and play an Amiga game for personal nostalgia reasons but it doesn't make sense to go down with a sinking ship where people are not cooperating.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 20-May-2020 20:47:49
#2008 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5752
From: Unknown

@matthey

you asked somebody less than 30 years and never heard of Amiga?

Surprise... surprise

how should anybody know of amiga below 30 years

and I tell you a secret... most below 30 years even have hardly any technical knowledge

ask anybody below 30 years what is technical base of android or iOS

I would forecast most do not know

most people below 30 are users without any technical knowlegde

and od course they do not know anything about amiga

where should they know?

people today use a platform not because of a platform or the OS but because they can do something on it better than on other platforms. They have no clue about technical issues and no clue about hardware or OS

So there are two options left... you make the "retro crowd" happy, people that remember amiga or you do something better than on any other platform attracting people who have no clue of the used OS or amiga

For the second we do not have the resources. And we would need to break most concepts to get something "modern". The software would no longer work. And where would be the difference to f.e. Linux?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 20-May-2020 at 09:14 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 20-May-2020 at 08:54 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 20-May-2020 at 08:51 PM.

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matthey 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 20-May-2020 21:43:17
#2009 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 716
From: Kansas

Quote:

people today use a platform not because of a platform or the OS but because they can do something on it better than on other platforms. They have no clue about technical issues and no clue about hardware or OS

So there are two options left... you make the "retro crowd" happy, people that remember amiga or you do something better than on any other platform attracting people who have no clue of the used OS or amiga


What category does the Raspberry Pi fit in? What can the Raspberry Pi do better? Most smart phones were faster and could do more than the first Raspberry Pi. Who bought over 30 million RPis and why?

Quote:

For the second we do not have the resources. And we would need to break most concepts to get something "modern". The software would no longer work. And where would be the difference to f.e. Linux?


Hardware could have retro 68k games appeal out of the box. What did the Raspberry Pi have at the start besides a few Linux ports on ARM where x86_64 is better supported and optimized and RISC OS which is less appealing than AmigaOS?

Last edited by matthey on 20-May-2020 at 10:52 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 20-May-2020 at 09:54 PM.

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DiscreetFX 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 21-May-2020 1:28:26
#2010 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 1871
From: Chicago, IL

Im still waiting on my Vampire so cant really comment on its features or performance. It sounds amazing though, I cant wait to develop on it.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

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Trixie 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 21-May-2020 7:57:29
#2011 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1933
From: Czech Republic

@DiscreetFX

Quote:
Im still waiting on my Vampire

A long meal, apparently

_________________
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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OneTimer1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 21-May-2020 9:28:57
#2012 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 597
From: Unknown

@matthey

Quote:


What category does the Raspberry Pi fit in? What can the Raspberry Pi do better? Most smart phones were faster and could do more than the first Raspberry Pi. Who bought over 30 million RPis and why?



> What category does the Raspberry Pi fit in?

RasPIs are nice little comp computers with a lot of I/O ideal for tinkering and DIY project.

> What can the Raspberry Pi do better?

- It has digital I/Os,
- cheaper than a phone,
- works on a modern TVs,
- free for different OSes,

> Who bought over 30 million RPis and why?

A lot of the buyers told, it felt like having a real home computer again. Something you can play with building hardware for, installing it in home made devices.

---

You don't need to use a RasPI, but if you don't want to spend your money on a Vampire or a AOS4 system you can chose from different cheap alternatives. UAE or AROS are cheap, if you want to support the other AmigaOID flavours ask people if they want compile it for other architectures.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 21-May-2020 at 09:34 AM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 21-May-2020 at 09:32 AM.

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ealm 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 21-May-2020 10:09:12
#2013 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 14-Jun-2003
Posts: 112
From: Unknown

Anyone with a PC/Mac can run UAE, no need for a Pi for that. However I can see the charm in a Pi + keyrah in an A600 case. That's at least more Amiga'ish than your PC + UAE. But of course much more Amiga to put a Vampire in the A600 instead...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 21-May-2020 12:25:45
#2014 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@ealm

I really hate UAE, I witch people learn to code and use drivers instead of poking chips.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 21-May-2020 12:35:09
#2015 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@OlafS25

I totally get the point of doing audio mixing hardware instead of doing I int software, but he should blame martin for doing his best, 604 and 603 where most powerful chips, as pointed out before, and context switching between cpus (680x0 and ppc) did not help.

Anyhow no one cares anymore the amount cpu power to do audio mixing on modern cpu so minimum, no one cares, I understand there is a problem on slower CPUs, its simple use OpenAL, it works great, and its easy to use.

And as some one else pointed out its not like it has not done before, just look scream tracker. Japanese X68000 computer.

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Rose 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 21-May-2020 13:09:53
#2016 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 699
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@ealm

I really hate UAE, I witch people learn to code and use drivers instead of poking chips.


Just like NG.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 21-May-2020 13:25:29
#2017 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5752
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

the special about amiga is the hardware (custom chips). If you take that away you have the same concept as todays mainstream platforms who run on different hardware but then why use anything amiga related at all

If you want to sell something for the masses you have to create something cool that let the user do something better than on other devices or offers a use case that other not offer

If you manage to both OS and hardware is not important and people will not care about it. In this case you could even use PPC and AOS 4.X for it as long as it is hidden. If that makes sense from a business point of view is a different question.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-May-2020 at 01:29 PM.

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matthey 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 21-May-2020 18:47:52
#2018 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 716
From: Kansas

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:
> What category does the Raspberry Pi fit in?

RasPIs are nice little comp computers with a lot of I/O ideal for tinkering and DIY project.


So Raspberry Pi has low retro market appeal but huge Hobbyist market appeal? There is another market which is often overlooked but I believe is responsible for a large proportion of the sales. The embedded sales and usages are kept quiet.

Quote:

Liz wrote:
OP - I'm Director of Communications here at Raspberry Pi, and we would *love* to be able to publicise more examples of enterprise usage. Unfortunately the vast, vast majority of organisations using Raspberry Pi do not want to make the fact common knowledge for a variety of reasons, competitive advantage being the main one. It's a shame; I'm aware of a very large number of very cool projects which I'd love us to be able to share. But if they're not willing to share with us, I think they're going to be vanishingly unlikely to share them with the forums. This stuff is high stakes - I am, sadly, aware of one person who lost his job after he shared what his organisation, a national postal service in Europe, was doing with the Raspberry Pi without getting permission from his bosses. It's the only blog post we've ever deleted after the fact.

FWIW, you might want to look through the Raspberry Pi blog for some examples we have been able to share.


https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=173727

The Pi forum thread lists several embedded and educational uses of the Pi. The conclusion after an attempt to poll the embedded use was that businesses using the Pi did not want to go public with the information.

The 68k CPUs were the best selling 32 bit embedded CPU in the world until Motorola decided PPC was the future for embedded and their customers fled to ARM. Amiga had some embedded wins with the most popular being the Toaster. Unfortunately, Commodore management didn't understand the importance of the embedded market either.

Quote:

> What can the Raspberry Pi do better?

- It has digital I/Os,
- cheaper than a phone,
- works on a modern TVs,
- free for different OSes,


Easy to use, good performance/price, compact, standard, open, connectable, available?

Sounds like the promised land while the Amiga is stuck wandering in the desert. Pi has the dessert while the Amiga gets the desert.

Quote:

> Who bought over 30 million RPis and why?

A lot of the buyers told, it felt like having a real home computer again. Something you can play with building hardware for, installing it in home made devices.


So the Pi feels like the Amiga used to be but modernized for today? Only Amiga makes it impossible.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 21-May-2020 20:03:08
#2019 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:
If you take that away


Its not about removing chips, PCs today have lots chip embedded CPUs controlling all kind of stuff, its more about how you use the chips and how you write your software. Also modern computers can save power by powering down chips, or enabling disabling drivers, there is no power saving features in AmigaOS.

You bunch of poorly written software that dont care that you have USB or networks services running, they just kill the OS and takes over.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-May-2020 at 08:07 PM.

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matthey 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 21-May-2020 20:06:58
#2020 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 716
From: Kansas

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
I totally get the point of doing audio mixing hardware instead of doing I int software, but he should blame martin for doing his best, 604 and 603 where most powerful chips, as pointed out before, and context switching between cpus (680x0 and ppc) did not help.


There is a huge difference between the beefy high end PPC 604(e) and stripped down low end PPC 603(e). The 604e was similar performance to a G3 (PPC 740/750) but not as efficient. The 604e should have more performance at the same clock speed than the lower end and older 68060 with half the transistors. The PPC 603 was a huge disappointment and gave PPC and Apple a bad reputation. The 68060 outperformed it at the same clock speed with the same size I and D caches despite the 603 using a smaller process. The 603e doubled the I and D caches, shrunk the die size and allowed higher clock speeds which made it tolerable entry level performance.

The slowdown was not due to context switches because there were none.

Quote:

Martin Blom wrote:
Unfortunately, the PowerPC version, which had the mixing routines rewritten in C for portability reasons, was not any faster than the old m68k version. Not surprising, some might say. But yes, it was, because the slowdown was not due to context switches (there were none), but simply because the mixing routines were written in C instead of Assembly language. Sure, a high-level language will always be less optimal, but the underlying hardware should make up for that: a 604e/233 compared to an 060/50.


The most likely culprit to Martin's problem was the EGCS compiler which was scrapped for the GCC compiler. It is well known for its poor code generation. Smart compilers were supposed to win the battle for RISC like PPC which allowed to move complexity out of the CPU and into the compiler. There would be no need to look at assembler code anymore. How many RISC architectures have died during the life of x86/x86_64?

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