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PosterThread
michalsc 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 10:01:47
#1281 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 283
From: Germany

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
and it is compiled by gcc on ARM in wrog little endian format


because you have not told gcc that it should generate code for ARM in big endian mode. Have you done that on purpose? I have shown how binaries of ARM look like depending on the compile options used. Have you ignored that post because it proves you wrong? Have you expected that after opcode "setend be" the binary will flip itself to big endian??

I believe that your compiler produces little endian by default, because almost everyone uses arm in little endian mode. But you can switch the compiler to produce big endian binary any time with proper command line options. Alternatively you can make entire toolchain with big endian as default und little endian as option.

With proper compiler flags the binary is correct:

Quote:

➜ grpc /opt/cross/bin/arm-linux-gnueabihf-gcc -mbe8 -mbig-endian -Wl,--be8 -Wl,--format=elf32-bigarm -nostartfiles -nostdlib -Os -o test test.c
/opt/cross/lib/gcc/arm-linux-gnueabihf/8.2.0/../../../../arm-linux-gnueabihf/bin/ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 0000000000010094
➜ grpc /opt/cross/bin/aarch64-linux-objcopy -O binary test test.bin
➜ grpc hexdump -C test.bin
00000000 04 30 9f e5 00 00 93 e5 1e ff 2f e1 00 02 00 a4 |.0......../.....|
00000010 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
*
00010010 de ad be ef |....|
00010014


Quote:
ARM is not real big endian cpu.


No, of course not. ARM is bi-endian CPU.

Quote:
It is useless for Amiga Os.


It is useful for AmigaOS when running in big endian mode.

Quote:
Old C/C++ Amiga code should work after just recompilation. Like on ppc.


With properly configured toolchain or with proper command line switches old C/C++ amiga code would work just after recompilation, like on ppc.

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michalsc 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 10:22:05
#1282 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 283
From: Germany

@tygre

Quote:
1) How often would C code do something like that


More often then I would like to. Last example is the Capstone project which I use to disassemble aarch64 and m68k instructions in my Emu68 project. Capstone is written with endianess in mind, but still it failed for me. Since I am using AArch64 in big endian mode, capstone was showing float numbers incorrectly. Surprisingly enough, all integers and double numbers were displayed properly. Why?

After checking the source code I have noticed that the immediate operands of instructions are stored in a union like this one:

typedef union {
uint64_t i_num;
double d_num;
float f_num;
} immediate;

When analysing the opcodes, capstone was promoting all integer immediates to 64bit form and stored in i_num field. For floating point numbers it was reading the number as integer (either uint32_t or uint64_t) and storing into i_num directly without any further processing of the number.
On little endian CPUs all went just ok. Fetching any value was correct, because the data begins from the lowest address for every type. In big endian mode on AArch64 it failed, because the 32bit float number was in wrong half of the 64-bit wide field.

So you see, even if you try to be endian aware, issues can just pop out in unexpected moments :)


Quote:
2) What are other "typical" C code that is not "endianness-safe"?


More then you think. The most common case is working with binary data of any form. Imagine some simple check of a header of some binary file:

if (data8[0] == 'E' && data8[1] == 'L' && data8[2] == 'F')

Compiler may optimize it to a 32bit number check (with ignoring data[3] through a mask) instead of testing one byte after another. For big endian machine such optimization could look like this:

if ((data32[0] & 0xffffff00) == 'ELF\0')

where on little endian machine it would be rather something like

if ((data32[0] & 0x00ffffff) == '\0FLE')

Thereby you have no control over it what the compiler will "optimize" for you and what not. Alone for this reason coexistence of big- and little-endian binaries and programms in a fully open OS environment as it is in case of AmigaOS and derivates is not possible. It does not work since after compilation the information about structure of the data is lost.

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 11:54:22
#1283 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11133
From: In the village

@thread that used to be about trademarks

A500 under examination

#6

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 12:00:38
#1284 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11133
From: In the village

@amigakit

That brings us back to this:

TheA500

I see you filed objection to this one.

#6

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A1200 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 15:17:09
#1285 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3074
From: Westhall, UK

@number6

I think all Amiga companies are nuts. A500? I might trademark TRS-80 or Sam Coupe so I can be the one true provider of accessories for these wonderful machines.

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 15:34:07
#1286 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11133
From: In the village

@A1200

True, but look at who he's objecting TO.

That's now the 3rd "real" company with track record and ability to manufacture and distribute real product that our little "group" has gone after.

#6

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F0L 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 16:20:03
#1287 ]
Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2009
Posts: 53
From: amiga.online, amigakit.com

@A1200

Quote:

A1200 wrote:
I might trademark TRS-80 or Sam Coupe so I can be the one true provider of accessories for these wonderful machines.


Too late, someone got there first: Sam Coupe Trademarks

Strange that it has same address as TheA500 trademark filing.

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A1200 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 16:26:37
#1288 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3074
From: Westhall, UK

No one is stopping anyone producing RAM cards etc for an A500. There were loads of companies in the 80s and 90s producing add ons when commodore presumably had the A500 trademark. Unless someone is planning a new Amiga 500 don't see why these trademarks are important.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 17:12:52
#1289 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 234
From: Unknown

@michalsc

Quote:
because you have not told gcc that it should generate code for ARM in big endian mode.


It is simple. gcc that compile code in C files to little endian and at the same time data in the same C files to big endian not exists.

Quote:
No, of course not. ARM is bi-endian CPU.


ARM is not real big endian cpu. On ARM in big endian mode code is still little endian.

Quote:
With properly configured toolchain or with proper command line switches old C/C++ amiga code would work just after recompilation, like on ppc.


If someone patch hundreds of megabyte of code gcc and rest of tools to made proper gcc.
gcc that compile code in C files to little endian and at the same time data in the same C files to big endian.
Which means never.


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michalsc 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 17:50:56
#1290 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 283
From: Germany

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
It is simple. gcc that compile code in C files to little endian and at the same time data in the same C files to big endian not exists.


You are replying to a post in which I have just shown how to compile for big endian aarch32 target. Few posts later I have just shown how to compile for big endian aarch64 target. In gcc manual, section with ARM specific option, one reads that there is a switch to either compile for big endian or little endian targets.

Quote:
On ARM in big endian mode code is still little endian.


Sure, but it does not matter.

Quote:
If someone patch hundreds of megabyte of code gcc and rest of tools to made proper gcc.
gcc that compile code in C files to little endian and at the same time data in the same C files to big endian.
Which means never.


Well, if I look at gnu tools, all ARM big endian modes (which means old be32 and new be8 for 32-bit architectures as well as big endian for aarch64 architecture) are supported as far as I was checking. Your "never" seems to happened probably in last century already.



To summarise. I show you gcc and binutils compiling and generating arm big endian files. You say it does not exist. I show you that the generated binary contains LE code and BE data, you say it will never happen, even if I show you this:



There, one clearly sees that the CPU instructions remain in LE byte order no matter what compile flags are set, but data is set to either BE or LE, depending on compiler flags. Exactly the case which, according to you, will never happen.

I even compile your own example with ARM toolchain and I show you the flags necessary to generate ARM big endian version of it - you say such gcc does not exist.



This leads me to a conclusion that either
a) you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, or
b) you are just trolling.

Emu68 project, a JIT engine which translates m68k code to AArch32 or AArch64 code and executing it, uses ARM in big endian mode. But probably you will just say that it does not exist or is impossible, although everyone can follow it on GitHub, download sources or nightly builds.

Last edited by michalsc on 22-Apr-2021 at 06:05 PM.
Last edited by michalsc on 22-Apr-2021 at 05:58 PM.
Last edited by michalsc on 22-Apr-2021 at 05:56 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 22:08:30
#1291 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 965
From: Kansas

#6 Quote:

That brings us back to this:

TheA500

I see you filed objection to this one.


A-Eon/AmigaKit needs marketing names for new Amiga like computers since they may lose the sub-licensed right to use "AmigaOne". It will be interesting marketing them without "AmigaOS" but maybe they will switch to AROS as AmigaOS 4 may be in lawsuit and bankruptcy limbo for months if not years as we know from Amiga experience. Perhaps they could license them from Amiga Corporation but maybe Amiga Corporation would like to recoup the costs of lawsuits from previously licensing these marks before licensing them again. A-Eon has remained silent during the lawsuit despite them having more to lose than Hyperion as they are more heavily invested in the Amiga than Hyperion which is just a broke shell of a business. With so much to lose, they seem willing to take Ben's suggestion and "wait for the Court to rule".

"TheA500" suggests a mass produced affordable Amiga. The link provided is about an "AmigaMini" which is yet another FPGA Amiga although the "Amiga" name would have to be licensed. The product which does finally use the Amiga name should have a marketing advantage. This could be a simple relabeling of existing FPGA hardware or a Raspberry Pi using emulation in a custom Amiga case. Taking the easy route would likely tarnish the Amiga name and smart people could buy the same hardware without the Amiga name for less cost. Doing what is easy may result in a one and done product. The Amiga needs a product which has good Amiga compatibility, descent performance and an affordable price. The FleaFPGA Ohm provided an Amiga more capable than an Amiga 500 or MiniMig for $45 U.S. and it was not even mass produced. A mass produced product could be cheaper than a Raspberry Pi.

I mentioned J-Core earlier in this thread which is open hardware SuperH.

SuperH wiki Quote:

"Extremely low ASIC fabrication costs now that the patents are expiring (around US$0.03 for a dual-core J2 core on TSMC's 180 nm process)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperH

A J2 core is the rough equivalent of a SuperH SH-2 core. It is about 50,000 gates which at 3 transistors per gate would be about 150,000 transistors (an ARM2 core was about 30,000 transistors). A 68000 was about 40,000 transistors. The Amiga AGA chipset was about 80,000 transistors and ECS about 60,000 transistors. Perhaps the original Amiga logic would use $.02 of silicon in a mass produced ASIC today. The logic of a 68060 with AGA may be $.51 using the same ratio. The kind of mass production in the link is made possible with unit quantities for embedded use and does not include development costs but these become reasonable when spread out over multiple mass produced products, especially for embedded use as exemplified by the J-Core project. The Amiga market is likely not large enough for mass production but embedded business partners may make it affordable. Then again, we can see how Amiga business partners get along and how some have their heads in the sand consumed by protecting their precious. Only Amiga makes it impossible.

Last edited by matthey on 22-Apr-2021 at 11:28 PM.

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Cheese 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 22-Apr-2021 22:23:36
#1292 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Posts: 278
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

_________________
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"Delving into the past can be a dangerous exercise." -hyperionmp

"I've been a supporter of "REACTION" GUI because is an Amiga OS thing." -Snuffy

"I personally prefer a vision of do'ers and makers rather than

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kolla 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 23-Apr-2021 0:23:31
#1293 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1671
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ppcamiga1

Please feel free to examine binaries here for endianess

http://gentoo-repo.kolla.no/armeb/

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aria 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 23-Apr-2021 1:54:15
#1294 ]
Member
Joined: 6-Nov-2014
Posts: 27
From: Unknown

@matthey

Quote:
A-Eon/AmigaKit needs marketing names for new Amiga like computers since they may lose the sub-licensed right to use "AmigaOne". It will be interesting marketing them without "AmigaOS"


How would they lose such rights?

Neither Hyperion nor Amiga Corp. have signalled anything like that AFAIK.

Sticking to the facts rather than endless speculations, one could note how AEONKit have been engaging in trademark and domain grabbing behaviors for years.

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tygre 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 23-Apr-2021 2:35:40
#1295 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2011
Posts: 240
From: Montreal, QC, Canada

@simplex

Quote:

Quote:
I worked for a while with the JCK, the Java compliance tests... every Java compilers must pass them to be called "Java"...

SO... if a Java compiler fails JCK, does that mean it can't do "jack"?




10 points!

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Scientific Progress Goes Boing!

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tygre 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 23-Apr-2021 2:54:06
#1296 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2011
Posts: 240
From: Montreal, QC, Canada

@michalsc

Thank you so much! This is the first and best explanation I never had about endianness and the problems that it brings! I can only repeat: More!

(I don't want to despair Number6... but let's be honest: this discussion about endianness is much more interesting than the endless one about the lawsuit(s). I truly appreciate Number6's posts and contributions; it's the never-ending follow-up "discussions" about who's right and who's wrong that I find tedious.)

Quote:

Quote:
1) How often would C code do something like that


More often then I would like to. Last example is the Capstone project which I use to disassemble aarch64 and m68k instructions in my Emu68 project. Capstone is written with endianess in mind, but still it failed for me. Since I am using AArch64 in big endian mode, capstone was showing float numbers incorrectly. Surprisingly enough, all integers and double numbers were displayed properly. Why?

After checking the source code I have noticed that the immediate operands of instructions are stored in a union like this one:

typedef union {
uint64_t i_num;
double d_num;
float f_num;
} immediate;

When analysing the opcodes, capstone was promoting all integer immediates to 64bit form and stored in i_num field. For floating point numbers it was reading the number as integer (either uint32_t or uint64_t) and storing into i_num directly without any further processing of the number.
On little endian CPUs all went just ok. Fetching any value was correct, because the data begins from the lowest address for every type. In big endian mode on AArch64 it failed, because the 32bit float number was in wrong half of the 64-bit wide field.

So you see, even if you try to be endian aware, issues can just pop out in unexpected moments :)


So "unions" are evil! (Joke intended!)

Quote:

Quote:
2) What are other "typical" C code that is not "endianness-safe"?


More then you think. The most common case is working with binary data of any form. Imagine some simple check of a header of some binary file:

if (data8[0] == 'E' && data8[1] == 'L' && data8[2] == 'F')

Compiler may optimize it to a 32bit number check (with ignoring data[3] through a mask) instead of testing one byte after another. For big endian machine such optimization could look like this:

if ((data32[0] & 0xffffff00) == 'ELF\0')

where on little endian machine it would be rather something like

if ((data32[0] & 0x00ffffff) == '\0FLE')

Thereby you have no control over it what the compiler will "optimize" for you and what not. Alone for this reason coexistence of big- and little-endian binaries and programms in a fully open OS environment as it is in case of AmigaOS and derivates is not possible. It does not work since after compilation the information about structure of the data is lost.


Ouch! I see... In such a case, is the problem only coming from the compiler optimisation? As you wrote in other posts above, would recompiling with the proper "endian" parameter remove the problem entirely?

Besides unions that should be carefully checked and binary data... are there other "constructs" that could mess up endianness?

I'm really curious

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matthey 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 23-Apr-2021 5:19:37
#1297 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 965
From: Kansas

matthey Quote:
A-Eon/AmigaKit needs marketing names for new Amiga like computers since they may lose the sub-licensed right to use "AmigaOne". It will be interesting marketing them without "AmigaOS"


aria Quote:

How would they lose such rights?

Neither Hyperion nor Amiga Corp. have signalled anything like that AFAIK.


The Amiga parties are seeking to have the 2009 settlement agreement between Hyperion and Amiga Inc. ruled as breached by Hyperion which would allow for termination. I believe there would be no more license for Hyperion to use any Amiga marks and no more sub-licensing from Hyperion to A-Eon to use them. There would be no more license for Hyperion to develop or distribute AmigaOS in any form also.

Hyperion Director commented in post #1133 of this thread, "I will not comment on the ongoing lawsuit in Seattle" which is to be expected with an ongoing lawsuit. A-Eon/AmigaKit has not said much either but they are between a rock and a hard place. Surely they have some idea of the stakes but it doesn't seem to slow down their operations.

aria Quote:

Sticking to the facts rather than endless speculations, one could note how AEONKit have been engaging in trademark and domain grabbing behaviors for years.


Hyperion is the one restricted by the 2009 settlement agreement from challenging ownership of Amiga marks.

2009 Settlement Agreement Quote:

Hyperion agrees and covenants that it will not institute any action, claim or proceeding anywhere in the world . . . (B) challenging . . . (ii) ownership of the Licensed Marks by any Amiga Party or any successor . . . (a “Hyperion Prohibited Action”), unless the challenged activity constitutes a material breach of this Agreement, including but not limited to any material infringement by the Amiga Parties, by a successor to any Amiga Party, by a Purchaser or by a licensee of the licenses granted to Hyperion pursuant to this Agreement.


2009-12-11_amiga-hyperion_settlement-agreement.pdf
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxlY9g_OfLqDZTQyNGFkYzEtZDI5Zi00YzcxLThhODYtODcyZTg0M2I4MzQ1/edit

It looks like there is no restriction on challenging ownership of Amiga marks by sub-licensees of the relevant Amiga marks from Hyperion so A-Eon/AmigaKit may be ok to challenge ownership of Amiga marks (the "licensee" part above is likely talking about licensees from Amiga Inc. and *not* Hyperion but notice the tighter restrictions for the owner of the marks which displays the bias in this contract). Amiga Corporation could also challenge marks of A-Eon/AmigaKit especially the use of "AmigaKit" and "AmigaStore" marks as they contain the name "Amiga". Once again A-Eon/AmigaKit has more to lose in my opinion. I wonder if their attitude is also, "wait for the Court to rule" which seems rather dangerous to me.

Last edited by matthey on 23-Apr-2021 at 05:39 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 23-Apr-2021 at 05:24 AM.

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michalsc 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 23-Apr-2021 6:46:14
#1298 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 283
From: Germany

@tygre

Quote:
So "unions" are evil! (Joke intended!)


They are evil if inproperly used. They are blessing if used properly :) With help of union one can do very nice endian swap routines which get recognized by most compilers



such construct works always and it will be inlined without any penalty when the requested endian matches endian of target cpu. If this is not the case, proper cpu instruction will be emitted, such as rev on arm, or bswap on x86/x86_64, or movbe if the target x86 cpu supports it.

But, not only unions are "evil", consider bitfields as another candidate ;)

Quote:
Ouch! I see... In such a case, is the problem only coming from the compiler optimisation? As you wrote in other posts above, would recompiling with the proper "endian" parameter remove the problem entirely?


Yes, in that case selecting correct target cpu solves the problem.

Quote:
Besides unions that should be carefully checked and binary data... are there other "constructs" that could mess up endianness?


None coming to my mind right now. But, is binary data not bad enough? Keep in mind, binary data does not mean only file parsing. Binary data means filesystems and access to any hardware or peripherals, including graphics cards, network cards, audio and everything else. In such cases even simple increase of variable may turn into a nightmare if you "forget" about endianess.

Last edited by michalsc on 23-Apr-2021 at 06:47 AM.

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 23-Apr-2021 12:33:28
#1299 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11133
From: In the village

@matthey

In case this might affect your thinking:

Quote:
X5000 and Cyrus+ have recently dissappeared from the product selection of AmigaKit.


Source discussion

You might also notice there is no version of AmigaOS offered on that same site.

For that matter I don't even see "Hyperion" in the lengthy manufacturer list.

#6

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Trixie 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 23-Apr-2021 15:56:48
#1300 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2003
From: Czech Republic

@number6

I guess they've adopted a "Better safe than sorry" policy. Why burn your fingers with someone that's only too ready to sue everybody's butt off?

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AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
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