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bison 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 22:29:56
#1441 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@geen_naam

Quote:
So you're suggesting that there's no hope at all.

Your straw man said that, not me.

My hope is that Amiga Corporation prevails in court and releases the source code. Mike Battilana has already indicated that he would be open to doing that.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 22:45:00
#1442 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12812
From: Norway

@matthey

I wonder if there is any chance for two companies can be forced to merge, by some government. I know it happens to banks from time to time.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 22:46:19
#1443 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12812
From: Norway

@bison

Yes make it free, so that he does need to pay developers. Make just like AROS, no founding. kill it off, more abandonware for Cloanto to sell on his Amiga for never CD

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Jun-2021 at 10:55 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Jun-2021 at 10:50 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Jun-2021 at 10:49 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Jun-2021 at 10:48 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 23:18:36
#1444 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1998
From: Kansas

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

I wonder if there is any chance for two companies can be forced to merge, by some government. I know it happens to banks from time to time.


Forced mergers or buyouts are very rare here in the U.S. I did not think it was legal here until the 2008/2009 mortgage crisis when the banks in the best financial shape were practically forced to buy bad mortgage originators. They should have stood up against regulators and told them no as it wasn't worth it but the regulators likely would have bailed them out if necessary and practically did with nearly forced loans too. Crazy stuff for a supposedly capitalist nation like the U.S. Other nations with more micro-managed economies do force mergers and buyouts to strengthen businesses so they compete globally better. Japan comes to mind. Mazda had to do some political maneuvering at one time to remain independent when the government decided they didn't make the cut of biggest and most competitive automobile manufacturers.

Last edited by matthey on 02-Jun-2021 at 11:49 PM.

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kolla 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 7:37:38
#1445 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2879
From: Trondheim, Norway

I don’t care if open sourcing means even more “forking”, we already got plenty of that going on. I just want to be able to do everything myself, for myself, without insane licensing conditions, without having to sign any NDA or adhere to whacky ideas by certain “official” developers. It won’t “hurt” anyone, since I have absolutely zero plans of distributing my own builds, since that would also result in support requests which I have neither time nor interest in. Anyone interested my changes, could just pick commits from my source repos if they wish. This is what open source is about - freedom. Not “business” or “product development” - F dat sh!t.

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OlafS25 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 9:54:09
#1446 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6338
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

just a short comment...

as I understood the discussions 4.X code was used but also rewritten and improved. If a phrase like "large parts" is justified can only be answered by the involved developers but I do not think so. 3.2 is not designed as 4.X on 68k.

The second comment... always the discussions that open source is bad because it can be branched. Yes it can but as long the changes stay open all platforms can benefit. Take Aros as example... there is now the official main branch and the Vampire branch, One of the dev on main branch already said they would backport changes to the main branch and that it makes sense to have a seperate 68k branch that tests it on existing software. The requirements on 68k and "NG" are very different. One branch is not always advantage. On Open source general, if you have open source, some sort of foundation or something owned by a company, you need devs who are willing to contribute. To have something open makes it much easier to join than something closed. And if f.e. a company comes in financial trouble the OS is not affected (if open source). Assuming Cloanto wins it has to be seen what happens. I assume Mike B. already has ideas but all that depends on the court.

My idea always would have been all involved parties come at one table and agree to work together. The foundation should be identical on all platforms with common api and infrastructure (RTG, network, USB, PCI, drivers...) that is improved together and everyone creates its own desktop. That would have avoided wasting resources and improved that platform. But that became more and more difficult because all platforms head in different directions technically and will for a number of reasons not happen...

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Jun-2021 at 10:00 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 10:03:41
#1447 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6338
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

you keep repeating "open source is horror scenario"

to me "horror scenario" is a platform is closed source and owner vanishes. Then what do you do?

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OlafS25 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 10:11:27
#1448 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6338
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

at least someone can go somewhere

Assuming the company behind a closed source platform vanishes, what happens then?

You do not answer that

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amigakit 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 10:23:52
#1449 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2518
From: www.amigakit.com

@geen_naam

Quote:

AmiKit is a 68k Amiga distribution.


AmiKit is one of two independent distributions supported by Cloanto's Amiga Forever. The other being AmigaSYS.

Quote:

Noted and corrected. (Maybe people should come up with originals names instad. All the ami- amiga-, -kit combinations are very confusing . )


That probably true. AmigaKit was launched in 2004 and AmiKit was released a year later.


@matthey

Quote:
They would be better off pooling their resources and working together.


Pooling means profit sharing of the end product? I am certain this wouldn't be offered or permitted to happen. A-EON has never be offered or received any additional funding for advancing the OS4 graphics system from the stakeholders. The funds raised by Enhancer Software licences to end-users are used to partially cover the large development costs. The cost of investment over the last six years in the graphics system couldn't be "pooled": i.e. donated or sold off at a token value.

There will be a crossroads soon: the next levels of graphics development needed will require the graphics library to be overhauled. This is very costly and needs expertise. Are these resources available to Hyperion? Any changes to the graphics lib would result in a derivative work. If any third party did the work they would loose their copyright/control on the work unless there was some agreement. The past has demonstrated clearly that agreements are simply ignored or contested by some parties.

So A-EON and AmigaKit Ltd will continue to collaborate in an independent software project, free of the legal entanglements that others have been disputing for years. This is the most pragmatic option to advance our platform given the circumstances.

Last edited by amigakit on 03-Jun-2021 at 10:28 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 10:35:19
#1450 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6338
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Ben H. has a direction?

Share to inform me about that... I do not see it. And a business model making money of software that is developed for you for free sorry is no business model or direction (even if those devs do it voluntary)

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OlafS25 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 10:39:21
#1451 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6338
From: Unknown

@amigakit

without legal access to source codes your concept will come to a end

Or you write everything from scratch. Replacing some cli commands is easy or add something new but replacing important components with certainly lots of side effects and without access to internals will propably break a lot of. I imagine that difficult.

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amigakit 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 10:54:00
#1452 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2518
From: www.amigakit.com

@OlafS25

Quote:
without legal access to source codes your concept will come to a end


It is best not to have any access to the source codes.

Taking just one example of the graphics library: it is so outdated that a brand new approach is needed. Many years ago parts of Picasso96 API were rolled in the graphics library by Hyperion's devs. Picasso96 is a 1990's relec in itself so it was bolting on old technology upon even older 80's software technology. How is the old graphics lib ever going to support many modern concepts such as Multi Monitor, hot plug detection, monitor DPI information, LCD backlight adjustments, Freesync etc

This is the same scenario when development of MiniGL (with its fixed pipeline design) came to a abrupt dead end and the shaders based Warp3D Nova took over. The rest of the world has moved forward.

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OlafS25 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 11:03:38
#1453 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6338
From: Unknown

@amigakit

but graphics library affects a lot of other components including desktop. Without sources it is in my view impossible to not have unwanted side effects.

And you have lots of software using it.

To do a clean-room rewrite and modernization of graphics library not breaking lots of software and components sounds to me like a huge and complicated project

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OlafS25 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 11:05:52
#1454 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6338
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

that direction was taken almost 20 years ago

we now have 2021 and a different world. What about now?

Yes I do not agree to you but you do not need to agree to me either

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OlafS25 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 11:37:26
#1455 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6338
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

the "68k crowd" has different expectations. People see it as retro, as hobby. They do not expect it to compete with modern platforms. And do not use it for daily work.

On NG that expectations are higher. Skilled devs are rare everywhere. And for commercial development of OS and new hardware you need lots of money, money that cannot be reearned in that market. Only in the classic market you today have growth and money. That is the basic reason why there is a court case between Cloanto and Hyperion. The 4.X line obviously has reached the end. Development is only done by volunteers doing it for free. Amigakit and Trevor D. are investing some money but it is difficult for me to see a real change there.

Regarding SMP, MP and 64bit it can be done (it was done with a special aros branch) but it will break old software. The question always is... who will write new software for it?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Jun-2021 at 11:39 AM.

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 11:43:53
#1456 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11586
From: In the village

@geen_naam

Quote:
I remember that Amithlon was gaining a lot of momentum. Not sure why they had to stop.


Bernie is an AW member and has retold the story here several times.

the oldest version of the story on AW

@OlafS25

I agree re:your comment on the back porting. The best thing to do would be to simply ask Camilla.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 03-Jun-2021 at 12:02 PM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 12:17:09
#1457 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@OlafS25

"The question always is... who will write new software for it?"

Same ~1,5 people that do it today for alien-to-68k platforms.

With SMP, MP and 64bit, people could continue using their existing SW via UAE or some other sandbox solution.

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//
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cgutjahr 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 15:38:43
#1458 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Quote:

have no indication that the captains suddenly come to their senses and start working together.

The idea is to get rid of all the captains, obviously. A lot of the stupid games that have been going on behind the scenes simply would not be possible with an open code base.

Engineers and/or big software projects do need to be managed, of course. But with an open code base, the engineers get much more of a say in what that management looks like. I can't hold them hostage, just because I own the code - I actually need to convince them to work for me: I need to have a convincing vision or amazing people skills, I need to be the most experienced developer or put the most hours in myself, or I need to give them the opportunity to work in an amazing team etc.

Right now, people who openly despise Ben Hermans when you talk to them in private or people who are publicly admitting he pirated Kickstart 1.3 are writing code for him. Because they love working on the AmigaOS code base and he's their only option.

Quote:

But since when is it unusual to pay for quality software in the first place? I remember having to pay for Cybergraphics, P96, MUI, DOpus and so on.

For starters, OS4 used to include (commercial) graphics drivers. Having to pay for drivers now is a sign that things are getting worse.

And while I have no problem paying for quality software, I don't appreciate forcing bundles on customers that try to push products down their throat they have no need for. I haven't checked Enhancer myself, obviously - but the fact that the os4welt guys want to write their own installer strongly implies you do not have the option to select what parts of Enhancer you want to install.

Forcibly replacing system components with 3rd party products is extremely bad design. Whoever decided to implement it that way - or worse, didn't realise that this is a bad idea - is basically holding up a massive sign saying: "please keep me away from any OS development as far as humanly possible".

Quote:

I have no indication that Enhancer coders are being abused. As a matter of facts, some of them are paid quite handsomely considering amiga standards. Part of it is possible due to Enhancer sales revenue.

Yeah, "abuse" was probably the wrong word here. I'm no native speaker, obviously - maybe "misused" would have been a better fit?

Here's what I was trying to say:

In a sane project, once the devs have identified graphics.library as a component that badly needs an overhaul, the project leader approaches one or two guys (Hans...) and asks them to do some research on that topic and come up with a plan - including a vague roadmap and a list of potential (compatibility) issues. Then you try to find a way (money, buttkissing, hardware donations, peer pressure...) to make Hans work on that.

In closed source AmigaOS land, this is what happened instead: Party A owns graphics.library. Party B licenses it and combines it with P96 code acquired from party C. Party D starts porting Gallium to AmigaOS, which is meant to become the base of a next generation graphics.library, but stops after half the work is done because they're no longer getting paid. Then party E comes around and pays Party F and G to write a custom 3D layer which operates completely independent of the existing graphics susbsystem and run a cut down version of OpenGL on top of that. So, fifteen years later, graphics.library is still a completely outdated mess - but we can build and run newer 3D Linux games now. If we pay for that option.

I was simply trying to say that the latter option is not making the best use of the Hans resource. Apologies to Matthew for accusing him of abusing people - he's evil, but not that evil.

Last edited by cgutjahr on 03-Jun-2021 at 03:44 PM.

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 16:47:06
#1459 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11586
From: In the village

@Geennaam

I see you have 2 accounts now?

https://amigaworld.net/userinfo.php?uid=1818
https://amigaworld.net/userinfo.php?uid=2034

If you are trying to do something and require assistance, just let me know.

I'll add this obvious bit for all:

No one knows what words "would" have been spoken or what actions "would" have been taken by any of the captains, if they were not all acting under constraints/limitations of the current situation. Just something to consider.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 03-Jun-2021 at 04:50 PM.

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cgutjahr 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 16:58:07
#1460 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@Geennaam

Quote:

So what you are basically saying is that amigaos4 should be in the hands of aeon. Because aeon would be (the only one willing and) able to fund HDR's effort to create an updated graphics library. Now we are getting somewhere

I'm discussing AmigaOS, which means A-EON and Amigakit are off-topic here. Or, as Matt so eloquently put it: "we can not work on other entities' code".

I wish them all the best for their AMIGA.org OS.

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