Between the evil frog and the hypno-toad I think we're on to something.

@number6

Thanks for following up on this, i wondered when someone would notice :)

I don't know know who this 'AmigaDocuments' is but objectivity is obviously not present on that page.

2015 and 2016 have been filed, as time will tell.

2017 will be filed but isn't required yet. Something this 'AmigaDocuments' got wrong, no surprise there.

And the first one who thinks Hyperion is doing it for the money now stands corrected and can send over half a million euro :)

Kind Regards,

Timothy

There's an old joke in the aviation industry that goes something like this: How to make a small fortune in aviation? Start with a large fortune.

I wish Hyperion all the best.

reading https://twitter.com/amigadocuments made a long train journey pass very quickly yesterday, at times it resembled a true soap opera.

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@thread

I assumed they were in debt, but I did not think it was this deep. It's hard to imagine a credible plan to pay this off, at least not on the Amiga side of the business.

Last edited by bison on 03-May-2018 at 04:31 PM.

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I never accused Hyperion for doing it for the money - if only that could be true - it has been obvious since forever that there is little and no money to earn at all on Amiga. I hope some legal entity could put them out of their (and our) misery. Where would that put AmigaOS? Any situation would be better than the current nonsensical stall mate.

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@kolla

Not really. A dead company with no legal way of transferring the licence to sell AmigaOS to A-EON or Cloanto or whoever would be worse. The way I see it Hyperion nearly went bankrupt already and A-EON helped them restructure so AmigaOS could continue to be developed. They already (nearly) died and they came back that is better than the end unless you think that would lead to a boost for MorphOS and AROS which it wouldn't I'm afraid.

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@bison

Quote:

bison wrote: @thread I assumed they were in debt, but I did not think it was this deep. It's hard to imagine a credible plan to pay this off, at least not on the Amiga side of the business.

So they lost 420,000 Euros in 2014 and then 459,000 in 2015 and then 499,000 Euros in 2016! Should we expect a loss of nearly 540,000 Euros in 2017? When will this end?

... or don't worry about it and head back to the law courts!!!!

Or does "Over te dragen winst (verlies)" mean total debt rather than total loss that year?

Either way an extra 40,000 Euros a year debt year on year is awful!! It is kinda how the U.S. and U.K. economies are set up but they have significant assets! What does Hyperion have?

Last edited by BigD on 03-May-2018 at 09:40 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 03-May-2018 at 09:38 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 03-May-2018 at 09:38 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 03-May-2018 at 09:29 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 03-May-2018 at 09:28 PM.

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@BigD

Quote:

Either way an extra 40,000 Euros a year debt year on year is awful!! It is kinda how the U.S. and U.K. economies are set up but they have significant assets! What does Hyperion have?

Hyperion has investors willing to put their own money into it, year after year, perhaps to maintain the dream/illusion (take your pick) that one day, one day it may pay off; perhaps merely to spite those who would profit from their folding. Sort of like Pentti Kouri kept Amiga, Inc. alive for a while for no apparent reason, and once he died Amiga finally ran out of money, and basically crumbled before Hyperion's onslaught.

Supposedly everyone involved with Hyperion's management has a second job; if they're earning enough from those jobs (no idea if so) then they can combine their extras to cover the losses.

A "good" parallel might be some of the digital camera manufacturers like Fujifilm or Olympus. They are now sprawling conglomerates who make immense sums off industries unrelated to their historical core (analog film in Fuji's case; cameras in Olympus') and for a while they hemorrhaged immense sums of money while the compact digital camera market collapsed with the rise of the smartphone. Some industry players whose corporate culture was not based in photography lacked the emotional attachment to stick that out, most notably Samsung (the NX1 was a thing of beauty, but much like the Amiga 1200 or the CD32 was too little, too late) but Fuji and Olympus stuck it out merely for the prestige factor of remaining attached to their roots. Today Fuji (at least) actually makes a profit off its cameras, having carved out a niche with cameras that aren't top-of-the-line in specs but are beautiful to use, while Olympus hangs on in another niche (the not-quite-compact market, called "micro 4/3 cameras").

(added in edit:) Another analogy might be Trevor Dickinson. (end edit)

Perhaps Hyperion's investors dream of pulling off the same thing.

(also added in edit:) But I have to wonder what business expenses Hyperion has that they're losing half a million a year. They don't seem to be developing anything (correct me if I'm wrong); even AmigaOS is outsourced so that they don't own the rights to the pieces they've commissioned (or so I've read; again, correct me if I'm wrong). So what are they paying for? Management salaries?

Last edited by simplex on 04-May-2018 at 02:16 AM.

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@thread

Rather than an I/S P&L I'd rather see their cash flow. It's fair practice to depreciate past capitalized expense which may results in an operating loss. However what are the sales $ and the true costs.

Since Hyperion is not a publicly traded company, some part of their financial situation may not be known for sure.

Last edited by Nonefornow on 04-May-2018 at 02:31 AM.

@BigD

Quote:

Or does "Over te dragen winst (verlies)" mean total debt rather than total loss that year?

Sorta, yes.

"Over te dragen" roughly translates as "to be carried over" (to the next fiscal year)

Evert

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@SimplePPC

Quote:

And the first one who thinks Hyperion is doing it for the money now stands corrected and can send over half a million euro :)

I don't think anyone ever thought Hyperion was any good at doing it for the money :)

But on a more serious note, Timothy --- just want to check that you are aware of Belgium's new insolvency law having come into effect on Tuesday? Especially the penultimate paragraph of that summary would send shivers down my spine if I were a director of a company which (interpolating from the available numbers) has less than a hundred grand in assets, and half a million more in debts than assets, especially given the rather limited (to put it mildly) market size for said company's only remotely viable product.

Australian laws are a bit more strict in defining insolvency, so that might have sensitized me a lot more on that point --- but still, the one cash-strapped startup I was a director of, you can bet we shut it down a long time before it got into a financial situation like the one painted by those Hyperion filings.

Quote:

2017 will be filed but isn't required yet

How about 2010 to 2014, though? While Hyperion VOF, to my understanding, did not need to file reports, Hyperion was already a CVBA when it announced the settlement with Amiga Inc in October 2009, and thus was (again, to my understanding, which is somewhat limited by a lot of the relevant texts only being available in languages I am far from fluent in) required to file at least since that time.

Last edited by umisef on 05-May-2018 at 12:39 PM.

@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote: @SimplePPC [quote]And the first one who thinks Hyperion is doing it for the money now stands corrected and can send over half a million euro :) I don't think anyone ever thought Hyperion was any good at doing it for the money :)

Well as was specified earlier, the major cause right now is a write-off.

Quote:

But on a more serious note, Timothy --- just want to check that you are aware of Belgium's new insolvency law having come into effect on Tuesday? Especially the penultimate paragraph of that summary would send shivers down my spine if I were a director of a company which (interpolating from the available numbers) has less than a hundred grand in assets, and half a million more in debts than assets, especially given the rather limited (to put it mildly) market size for said company's only remotely viable product. Australian laws are a bit more strict in defining insolvency, so that might have sensitized me a lot more on that point --- but still, the one cash-strapped startup I was a director of, you can bet we shut it down a long time before it got into a financial situation like the one painted by those Hyperion filings.

Yes i'm aware of that and yes i'm confident there is a place for Amiga at least as a niche product and with the right partners and some goodwill this could be achieved easier but apparently and sadly this is not the 'Amiga' way to some others completely contracting the word 'Amiga' itself.

However this should also prove that the 'resolve' of the management and shareholders is extremely strong and we will do whatever it takes and go wherever we have to go to make this happen :)

Quote:

2017 will be filed but isn't required yet

Quote:

How about 2010 to 2014, though? While Hyperion VOF, to my understanding, did not need to file reports, Hyperion was already a CVBA when it announced the settlement with Amiga Inc in October 2009, and thus was (again, to my understanding, which is somewhat limited by a lot of the relevant texts only being available in languages I am far from fluent in) required to file at least since that time.

Well as you know 2015 was a turning point, and altough they are prepared it's not certain that this is needed, 2017 is much more important, but if it is required this will happen too.

@SimplePPC

Quote:

and with the right partners and some goodwill this could be achieved easier

Considering the writings of your other director concerning your current partners and incorporating what you have worded above, it sounds like your current partners are not part of your "right partners" equation.
Apologies in advance if my reading of this is different than your intent of what to convey.

#6

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@thread

It s just an impression of mine or perhaps at Hyperion are waiting judgment of the courts in the pending cases they filed and once they will be granted of the full property of AmigaOS then they will sell all their assets (including AmigaOS itself and its source code) to pay their debts and cease activities?

Perhaps, again, should we Amigans start a bounty in order to collect enough cash and be ready to make a public offer if Hyperion will be forced to auction all its assets by Belgian Trade Authorities?

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@Raffaele

As founder and largest shareholder, this is NOT AT ALL a scenario that is being considered.

If you use this as an excuse to raise money which will not be refunded, this would be in very bad faith.

Whilst this my personal opinion, I am confident that the other shareholders agree with this.

In general (not specifically directed at Raffaele) in my opinion some of these "crowdfunding" sites are way too lax on combatting misuse of their platforms for personal gain.

Last edited by HyperionHolding on 06-May-2018 at 09:08 AM.

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@HyperionHolding

"Either way an extra 40,000 Euros a year debt year on year is awful!!"

There are probably people making more money on patron then Hyperion is losing per year.

40,000 / 12 = 3333,33 EURO
3333.33/ 500 users = 70 EURO a month in support.
3333.33/ 1000 users = 34 EURO a month in support.

Anyway the question remains if Hyperion only going use that money to payback dept's. The don't see how OS can progress.

As Patron support I wont more information on what Hyperion is working on, what they how things is progressing, not this silent Hyperion we have seen to now.

"monthly reports."

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-May-2018 at 09:37 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-May-2018 at 09:34 AM.

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How does a company with close to no activity manage to build up dept of 40,000 euros per year?

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@kolla

Spending all of their time in court can't be free...
Unless Ben working on it pro-bono that is.

@HyperionHolding

If AmigaOS is really your IP, why are you not taking legal actions against those who freely distribute it? What is your deal with the Apollo Core/Vampire project, since you allow them, and it appears just them, to distribute your intellectual property online, for free?

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