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      /  Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
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JimIgou 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 18-Jun-2018 16:41:04
#101 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 99
From: Unknown

@Signal

Quote:
time and money will be spent without considering the price/performance ratio


Actually, if you justify it by the logic of the ratio provided by Aeon hardware vs Raptor Engineering hardware, the equation works out in your favor.

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Turrican3 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 12:17:45
#102 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 324
From: Italy

While I certainly do understand it's a chicken and egg scenario, it always baffles me seeing (by the way: no offense OP, it's just my opinion!) people wishing for AmigaOS porting to what I see as *extremely* expensive hardware.

If there's a thing that Commodore taught me, is that their most successful hardware was *always* targeting the low-end, affordable market.

From there you can try to build-up and aim for the more powerful configurations... not the other way round.

It would be interesting to see some actual market research about what a sub-300 Amiga could sell. Or even a Raspberry-class hardware, why not? Mobile has experienced huge advancements thanks to ARM and the like during the last 10 years or so.



(EDIT for some reason I have to copy/paste the text to modify my post?! --- anyway, just wanted to add that I've just noticed I've been talking/wishing for a low-cost Amiga hardware on this very board for a very long time, sorry if this sounds a bit tedious... )

Last edited by Turrican3 on 19-Jun-2018 at 01:07 PM.

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Signal 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 13:34:24
#103 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 658
From: USA

@Turrican3

Quote:

Turrican3 wrote:
just wanted to add that I've just noticed I've been talking/wishing for a low-cost Amiga hardware on this very board for a very long time, sorry if this sounds a bit tedious..

As long as the low cost (I read as limited) hardware is not exclusive.

Personally, it would be cool if AOS ran on POWER9. Thats all, cool. If it never happens then it never happens. Meh.

AOS on low cost hardware? That would also be cool, but AOS on every chunk of hardware out there would simply not work. Who the heck would maintain all of that?

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Turrican3 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 13:49:09
#104 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 324
From: Italy

@Signal

Quote:
AOS on every chunk of hardware out there would simply not work. Who the heck would maintain all of that?

Hmm, that's not what I'm talking about though...

There's a reason I mentioned RaspberryPi, meaning a low cost AND sufficiently popular hardware, since I understand there are so few OS developers left (at least currently) so it would be foolish to waste this limited resource by spreading on who knows how many different pieces of hardware.

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Signal 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 14:30:29
#105 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 658
From: USA

@Turrican3

I know what you're talking about, and agree with your assessment. And, really have no answer to our conundrum.

_________________
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remotenemesis 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 16:13:18
#106 ]
Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2018
Posts: 93
From: SF Bay Area, California

@Turrican3

We need a reference platform for the future. I also think we need an open source OS if we want Amiga NG to to be around in another 10 years. I totally agree that we need a cheap low end machine. An A500/600/12000 for the 21st century.

Power9 is truly impressive but my gut tells me it's another PPC. Destined to die a lingering death.

I'd love to see an ARM powered, low-cost wedge form factor _home_ computer with modern connectors and an ethos focused on fun and creativity. No spyware, no ads, no corporate surveillance. A computer that one owns, not the other way around.

A more powerful ARM board or something like the discontinued Nvidia ION would be perfect. Maybe the PI4...?

Lets hope the Tabor is usable soon. It's a step in the right direction.



Last edited by remotenemesis on 19-Jun-2018 at 04:14 PM.

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JimIgou 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 16:15:24
#107 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 99
From: Unknown

@Signal

Well, the Pi does have a fully documented gpu, so it has advantages.

The problems we've discussing lately are the limitations the A1222 will face when decoding video and supporting HD screen resolutions.

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pavlor 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 16:46:42
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8993
From: Unknown

@JimIgou

Quote:
The problems we've discussing lately are the limitations the A1222 will face when decoding video and supporting HD screen resolutions.


HD screen resolutions and decoding video are least problems of Tabor. None of these requires strong FPU.

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JimIgou 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 17:01:00
#109 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 99
From: Unknown

@pavlor

No, it requires cpu power, even a T10XX based board would likely have faced issues with it.

Apparently the X5000's P5020 is adequate for a least 720p (and some 1080p content).

Both issues, thanks to the lack of support for gpu assisted decoding fall back to cpu limitations.

I'm curious to hear how well the A1222 handles windowed video decoding with background displays at higher resolutions.

Something tells me that falling back to lower resolutions and a full page display is going to be necessary.

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pavlor 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 17:22:57
#110 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8993
From: Unknown

@JimIgou

Quote:
No, it requires cpu power


What a surprise.

MPlayer benchmarks show Tabor is faster at video decoding than SAM460EX. Comparison to anything more mainstream would be laughable.

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JimIgou 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 17:53:57
#111 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 99
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
Comparison to anything more mainstream would be laughable.


I don't consider my one point of comparison mainstream, the X5000, but the other The PowerMac G5 IS.

Both handle HD video and higher screen resolutions better than the SAM460 and the A1222.

And no one has answered my question about how well the A1222 will handle video decoding in a window on a higher resolution screen.

BTW - Has anyone heard of any updates on A1222 sound support?

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bennymee 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 18:05:29
#112 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 520
From: Netherlands

@JimIgou

A higher resolution screen does mot really mathers, my Sam460 scales content to 4K without any problems. Offcourse limited to 720P content or less.


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bison 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 18:37:17
#113 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1372
From: N-Space

@remotenemesis

Quote:
We need a reference platform for the future.

Quote:
I also think we need an open source OS if we want Amiga NG to to be around in another 10 years.

Quote:
I totally agree that we need a cheap low end machine. An A500/600/12000 for the 21st century.

I agree with all three of these statements.

The trouble is, the existing Amiga community is small and at odds on how to achieve points one and two.

Your third point is probably something that nearly everyone can agree with.

Last edited by bison on 19-Jun-2018 at 06:37 PM.

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JimIgou 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-Jun-2018 19:09:22
#114 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 99
From: Unknown

@bennymee

Quote:
my Sam460 scales content to 4K without any problems


Thanks benny, that was part of what I was looking for.
So we are talking full screen here,not a overlay?

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bennymee 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 20-Jun-2018 9:21:24
#115 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 520
From: Netherlands

@JimIgou

It uses the compositing properties of OS4, no overlay as the Radeon 7750 does not support it in a way the Picasso cards are using it on a classic Amiga.

To be precise, a fullscreen Emotion player window on a Workbench with the resolution of 3840x2160 and 32bit ARGB color.

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Turrican3 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 20-Jun-2018 9:30:21
#116 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 324
From: Italy

@remotenemesis

Quote:
I totally agree that we need a cheap low end machine. An A500/600/12000 for the 21st century

Basically, this.

Listen guys, I've been just a lurker for who knows how many years due to interest 99% gone, so it's not like I have any particular bias left for the various parties involved in the Amiga scene... and that means I sold my MorphOS-enabled Mac Mini ages ago (you don't really want to know how much I paid that) and basically left untouched OS4 due to less-than-stellar emulation speed on my PC.

I just want a *cheap* Amiga box with reasonable performance, reasonable as in "it doesn't actually need to be on par with the latest Intel desktop i7 CPUs" to win back my interest.

Mind you, I respect what Trevor and the other parties have done... I just don't believe expensive and/or more or less exotic hardware is a viable route with the current state of the Amiga platform (if ever)

Last edited by Turrican3 on 20-Jun-2018 at 09:31 AM.
Last edited by Turrican3 on 20-Jun-2018 at 09:30 AM.

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remotenemesis 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 20-Jun-2018 15:56:15
#117 ]
Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2018
Posts: 93
From: SF Bay Area, California

@Turrican3

Quote:
Mind you, I respect what Trevor and the other parties have done... I just don't believe expensive and/or more or less exotic hardware is a viable route with the current state of the Amiga platform (if ever)


I certainly won't criticize the choice to move to PPC all those years ago. I think it was a good call to preserve Amiga heritage and project onto (at the time) a more modern platform.

Kudos to everyone working to bring these AmigaOne machines to life. I'm looking forward to enjoying the fruits of this effort while daydreaming about the future.

What lessons should we bring forward? Reference platforms focus effort? Use commodity hardware when possible?

I wonder how successful "Hombre" would have been? A fresh start, RISC CPU powered, running Windows NT, with powerful multimedia hardware and 68k emulation.

What would it take to assemble an modern "Hombre"? The graphics/sounds hardware is commodity. Intel/AMD motherboards are commodity. ARM motherboards are available. Vampire on a card for legacy emulation?

Windows as a host OS is obviously less attractive now (multi-CPU architecture Windows NT was pretty cool at the time). A Windows hosted Amiga emulator is basically Amiga Forever on a commodity PC, which already exists.

Should a next generation Amiga be based on a UNIX kernel? If so, what would make it Amiga-like?


Last edited by remotenemesis on 20-Jun-2018 at 04:11 PM.

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Amigo1 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jun-2018 7:02:57
#118 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1499
From: Cork Ireland

@remotenemesis

Quote:

Should a next generation Amiga be based on a UNIX kernel? If so, what would make it Amiga-like?


me thinks Amiga should stay Amiga. The Linux kernel seems such a monster, and the experience I made with Linux on X1000 even if the CPU is apparently fully supported, everything is just painfully slow.
Does not matter if Ubuntu, Lubuntu or Debian, it just feels like sleepingwalking.
Surely not only the kernels fault here.

NG kernel seems a really nice peace of software and in all system software feels ok.
But I am in favour to break compatibility, most classic software does not run anyway now.

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tlosm 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jun-2018 8:18:51
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2648
From: Amiga land

@Amigo1

It slow because you are using a old cpu on a new Os who need today resouces for do what it do.
Try to install on a Pentium coreduo with 2GB of ram windows 10 and you will know what mean slow :P

Plus BE is not fully supported compositing is not running on linux ppc it is disabled it mean all gfx componentes are rendered by cpu and not gpu. Plus it need fast ram access that is the problem effecting x1000 and X5000 too.

try to use Ubuntu Mate on Pi3 (not gpu accelered) and compare it with debian (gpu acclered) and you will see the difference with X1000 too

Last edited by tlosm on 21-Jun-2018 at 08:21 AM.
Last edited by tlosm on 21-Jun-2018 at 08:20 AM.

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Signal 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jun-2018 13:27:58
#120 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 658
From: USA

@tlosm

Quote:

tlosm wrote:
@Amigo1

It slow because you are using a old cpu on a new Os who need today resouces for do what it do.
Try to install on a Pentium coreduo with 2GB of ram windows 10 and you will know what mean slow :P


+1

If the kernel you are using on X1000 is more than 12 - 14 MB then it will be slow. Build your own.

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