@kolla

I think it's safe to assume that emulation users aren't willing to shell out thousands of dollars for a new PPC motherboard so they can have Warp3D Nova. UAE is the cheapest way to get OS4 running, and you don't even need a separate machine for it, so people are willing to live with the limitations.

_________________
This is just like television, only you can see much further.

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Hans LOL @ obvious Windows10 logo spoof

Hehe.

@all
While your guesses as to why people are using old or emulated hardware are probably right, I'd rather hear directly from people who have that old and/or emulated hardware.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@kolla

Quote:

Let me take a wild guess at what most people will answer - cheap and accessible hardware. Make the OS4 port to old PowerPC Macs official already.

Um...I had a rant here, and I erased it.

I'm using old PowerMacs, and I can't even convince the MorphOS development team to support the best one I own.

If I didn't know better, I'd think the general Amiga community was intentionally self defeating.

As to Hans' question...something better than Tabor.

Last edited by JimIgou on 13-Jun-2018 at 03:53 AM.

Quote:

Older hardware owners, what would convince you to upgrade to newer Warp3D Nova capable hardware?

The X5000 is an impressive way for me to unlock Nova capable video hardware, but....

First of all it costs a fortune. But the main thing that keeps my wallet close is the perspective of the platform that I can see now.
When I choosed to stay here several years ago with an A1 and a PegII something moved forward. There was some real and false promises that created hope.

After many things in the past, promises are hardly enough now for me.

I can see Nova as another promise. A real one that is no question, but
without some killer application, just a promise for a user like me.

And exactly what would convince me to upgrade to a Nova capable hardware?
- Hollywood plugin that can utilise Nova features
- Any really useable 3D modelling/rendering tool to be exist
- Flawless hardware accelerated video player available

Thanks for the question! :)

Last edited by Lazi on 13-Jun-2018 at 10:03 AM.

@Lazi

Interesting comments. What about the A1222 (Tabor)? It's not available just yet, but it'll be much cheaper than the X5000.

Quote:

I can see Nova as another promise. A real one that is no question, but without some killer application, just a promise for a user like me. And exactly what would convince me to upgrade to a Nova capable hardware? - Hollywood plugin that can utilise Nova features - Any really useable 3D modelling/rendering tool to be exist

So you're more interested in apps than games...

For 3D modelling, do you mean something other than Blender? Or would an updated version of Blender do? Our existing (MiniGL based) Blender port is very usable, although Blender has a steep learning curve.

Quote:

- Flawless hardware accelerated video player available

The Emotion video player is about as hardware-accelerated as we can manage at present. Bear in mind that Warp3D Nova is for 3D; it doesn't touch the hardware video decoders (which is a whole different game).

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 14-Jun-2018 at 03:45 AM.
Last edited by Hans on 14-Jun-2018 at 03:45 AM.

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@Hans

Quote:

For 3D modelling, do you mean something other than Blender? Or would an updated version of Blender do? Our existing (MiniGL based) Blender port is very usable, although Blender has a steep learning curve.

II tried to work with the AmigaOS Version of Blender some time ago (when we started with 3D). It works well but is far awai from current versions. I started from zero with Blender and a big problem was that nearly no Youtube Tutorial Video helps to learning Blender. Functions and especially are changed that it is hard to learn. I switched very fast to the Windows Version (i also need some plugins that does not work in the old version). For me, it is not the new Cycles Render which needs GFX Card functions, the "old" Blender Render is enough, but also other things written above stops using this Version.

Quote:

- Flawless hardware accelerated video player available

It would be a big game changer because good video playback could be a little step for dayily using AmigaOS again (ok, beside a good compatible browser, but this is another thing ;) ).


Very often, we hear that people want a single driver package to buy instead the whole Enhencer Suite (because it is not cheap).
I would prefer a GFX Driver Suite with Nova3d and RadeonHD drivers (One version, no Lite, 1.2, 2.x ...). Radiance would be a nice name for it ;)


Regards,
Thomas

_________________
www.amiboing.de - www.entwickler-x.de

@Hans
Quote:

What about the A1222 (Tabor)? It's not available just yet, but it'll be much cheaper than the X5000.

I look to the A1222 as an underpowered cheap entry machine. Amiga for me was always meant to be a fun and affordable tool for creativity. However the years proven that myself can't reach to the great Amiga standards of creativity showed many demo, game, tool and hardware developers.

But creativity needs to find new waters to conquer and today such a machine that plays only on the field of low price can't be so attractive even such a lamer as myself.

The price of the X5000 is not a showstopper. I am not changing machines as underpants. Using the mikroA1 since 2005. Hey that is 55 EUR/year and still decreasing! That was quite a good deal even economically. If I buy a 2000 EUR X5000 then that could be my last main computer in my life. So 100 EUR/year could be acceptable for me.

So what convinced me to reach here from my beloved C128?
- Look and hear Elite on the A500
- More colours and power on the A1200
- More power for the "great software library" with a 68060
- More convinient use of the "great software library" with a GFX card
- Even more power and convinient use for the "great software library" on A1/PegII

Unfortunately the "great software library" is less and less "great" as time forwards, and you faithful developers are so few that I can hardly hope in a new "great software library".

Quote:

So you're more interested in apps than games...

Games are important for any platform there is no question. The current state of games are almost satisfy me. Finished Gorky 17, playing with Tower 57 and waiting for Wings Remastered. Games are stealing too much time from the overall humanity that turned to be a wrong thing for my understanding.

Apps serves creativity and can give more fun than games. But a successfull platform has the apps to create new better apps. While our developers are forced to use other platforms to edit, compile sources, make graphix and sounds for our apps that can't help our system. I am shocked at 1992 when heard Amiga game developers saying that they are using DOS PCs for development! Saying that there are better tools. Developers grow out quite soon DPaint and Seka.

Hollywood and PageStream has a key role for me. It gave me to escape isolation. It gave me to use my choosen platform outside of the scope of weekend hobby timekiller. PageStream left in the old "great software library", but Hollywood shaping well and really kicking. Hollywood IS the killer app and main thing that keeps my machines useable.

As I can see these two applications has no real advantages on A1222 or X5000 talking about Nova or not.

According to Blender I think Thomas answared the question. He is a really talented creative and faithful developer. He is the one who should be served by native tools.

Quote:

Bear in mind that Warp3D Nova is for 3D; it doesn't touch the hardware video decoders (which is a whole different game).

The video playing capability is thrown there, because AFAIK the situation is not much better on new Nova enabled hardwares than for example on my PegII/R9250. But prove me wrong if there you can play full hd mkv videos without frame skip.

Hollywood currently has basic support for MiniGL which is itself has similar bottlenecks as Blender has. A little outdated. Hard to catch it with current tutorials, examples and can't utilize full power of the gfx hardwares. I think it would be a good start to enable Nova for Hollywood which should really convince at least me to upgrade again after 15 years.

However I know that there is a big rush around a development tool just until it released,
and much less interest after that. :)

I can see how hard is your position. Your only task should be to serve developers with some nice API, but the success of your work is highly depend on the developers. The developers depends on users and users depends on developments. If this circle has some momentum there is rolling. But moving it from a standing position needs really, really much power.

I wish the best for you and for other developers out there!
I will support you as I can, as I done it before.

@imagodespira

Quote:

Very often, we hear that people want a single driver package to buy instead the whole Enhencer Suite (because it is not cheap). I would prefer a GFX Driver Suite with Nova3d and RadeonHD drivers (One version, no Lite, 1.2, 2.x ...). Radiance would be a nice name for it ;)

This is something important I need to comment on. Please pass it on in the German forums because there seems to be a misconception here.

The costs of developing Warp3D Nova and Radeon drivers are very high (in terms of the tiny OS4 market and user base). If we sold them separately as a graphics bundle, the cost would be almost the same as the complete Enhancer Software right now. It is wrong to think that the costs would be reduced significantly without the other parts of the Enhancer Software.

In fact, we have not recovered costs yet with either the W3D Nova or Radeon drivers. They are the single largest development expense due to the complexity of the graphics system. As users buy the Enhancer Software, the revenue is being put back into further development by the Amiga Developer Team. Our excellent team develops the other software in the Enhancer Software package on favourable rates in their spare time and the costs are kept lower because of it.

In respect to the Enhancer Software, it contains great pieces of software and it is very important that new users who are buying brand new systems such as the X5000 receive this package. It is our intention to provide customer software support through this package going forward so they have regular updated software. It is especially important since the last commercial iteration of OS4.1 was in December 2014.

_________________
Amiga Kit Amiga Store
Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | A600GS

@Hans

Tabor has no available expansion slots.

Looking at available SerDes configurations for the P1022 (which only supports six SerDes lanes), after SATA and a NIC are provided, I don'tsee how they can provide more than three PCI-E lanes to the video card slot and there are no other PCI-E channels.

Think about that again, no expansion capability outside of USB, or something like I2C or SPI or GPIO.

Then there is the SPI FPU, which regardless of counter arguments, will cause complications.

Like the P5020, it does not support AltiVec, but with a clock speed limited to 1.2 GHz (rather than the P5020/40's 2.0-2.2 GHz) this will have a larger impact.

In the time it has taken to port OS4 to Tabor, an T1024, T1042, or T2080 based board could have been built that would have only slightly increased the end cost of the product, while having greater compatibility with the X5000.

No SPI FPU, an standard floating point unit, and in the case of the T2080, enhanced AltiVec.
And speeds ranging from 1.4 GHzto 1.8 GHz.
From a low end of two core, to a four core, with the top cpu I mentioned being a 4 core capable of eight threads.

And, btw, the market has been promised things that didn't materialize before.
Like the PPC laptop that never got produced.
And ALICE? If I want an X64 based laptop running UAE, I'll build it.

Now, on to "I'll build it". We apparently are going to have to design the T2080 based system ourselves, and are about to start PhaseII of that project.

Of course, everyone will have free access to this work when completed.

Further, what has happened to all those software packages Aeon bought the rights to?
I had the source code for Aladdin 4D a few years ago, but turned down the project because the last developer to work on it had produced some really ugly code.

But Aeon supposedly has developers working on all these packages, and the only software coming from them appears to be your excellent work.

Look, Aeon picked a cpu that the community specifically recommended against.
Then, after investing a fortune in cpus and the costs to design and build the boards, they sat on the stock.

Trevor is definitely wealthier than me, he has a good design company creating his designs (although if Paul Gentle recommended the P1022 he does not understand the Amiga community), but this entire enterprise is being run like a hobby.

I'm educated, I've been in business since the '80s, and none of the recent decisions Aeon has made make sound economic sense.

Tabor at $400?
Do you think it will significantly out perform the prototype ARM notebook Bill Buck just shipped me for free?
Outside of more modern video cards, how well do you think it would compare to a 1.42 or 1.67 GHz G4?

If PowerMac G5 11 PCI-E models were supported (which run around $400 or less), how well would the A1222 OR the X5000 come off in comparison?

Take our T2080 schematics once released and build on that, or better yet, start talking to Raptor Engineering about an ATX form factor Power 9 system.

But start listening to the market, they want better hardware at affordable prices.
And maybe even some more support for legacy developments like FPGA based hardware.

The majority of us, including some of the people Aeon gave Tabor hardware to, don't want the A1222.

Hans, I like you, I respect your work, but wtf good are the high end video drivers you are developing going to be on a 1.2 GHz system with a Gen 1.0 PCI-E slot that is only supplied by three to four PCI-E lanes?

Be honest.

Edit - From this:
https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/fact-sheet/QP1022FS.pdf
It looks like four by sharing resources.

Last edited by JimIgou on 14-Jun-2018 at 09:56 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 14-Jun-2018 at 06:56 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 14-Jun-2018 at 04:39 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 14-Jun-2018 at 03:16 PM.

@JimIgou

Quote:

... Hans, I like you, I respect your work, but wtf good are the high end video drivers you are developing going to be on a 1.2 GHz system with a Gen 1.0 PCI-E slot that is only supplied by three to four PCI-E lanes? Be hones.

Let's put this back into context: Lazi complained about the price of the X5000, so it's logical to bring up the low-cost option.

To answer your specific question: You still get to use modern shader-based 3D graphics incl. per-pixel lighting, etc. Sure, it's not going to compete with a high-end machine, but the drivers work equally well with both high-end and low end cards.

People are welcome to pair the Tabor with a low-end card if they feel a higher-end card is a waste. You can even go with the R7 240D, which is so crappy that even its cow3d fps is low. One word of caution, though. I once declared anything but a low-end card to be a waste on Sam440's, until someone tried a faster card and proved me wrong.

Quote:

The majority of us, including some of the people Aeon gave Tabor hardware to, don't want the A1222.

That's not what I'm hearing from others.

I have one myself. It won't replace my X1000, but it is a nice low-end machine.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@Hans

I want A1222 but it has been announced years ago and it is still not sale.

X5000 is just too expensive for me, I can't justify such a expensive toy to myself.

I have a Sam 440ep Flex, I would like to get better graphics card to it, but there is a problem with newer Radeon HD cards and I do want to have working 3D.

As it still unclear whem A1222 is released would be nice to have possibility to get better graphics card for Sam 440ep.

@Gregor

Quote:

Gregor wrote: @Hans There are several reasons to still use 'older' cards. I use a HD 5450 (bought as brand new a year ago) in my X5000 for these reasons: 1. Compatibility. It works with ALL operating systems available for X5000 - AmigaOS, LInux distros (Ubuntu, Debian, Opensuse, Fedora...) and MorphOS. (For comparison, a R7 240 which I bought first, does not work at all with MOS and some of the Linux distros). 2. Energy consumption. My 5450 uses only 11W! As I do not necessarily need a faster graphichs card, I cannot see any sense to have an energy hog running all the time I have my machine on, eating more energy than all the other components of my machine together! 3. I have no need for 3D with AmigaOS. The only 3D game I use regularly is SuperTux Kart, and there is 3D support for 5450 in Linux. Regards, Gregor

I have to admit point 2 is bothering me for a while too.

I wonder if there a possibility to build in a mechanism in the Radeon Drivers to decrease GPU performance while idle or not using many 3D features.

I know AmigaOS does not have power management features, but having the cooling fans blowing at maximum speed even when I'm only using a text editor is putting me off more an more to use any AmigaNG.
I have upgraded most of the graphics cards with 3rd party Fans (Arctic Xcellero and so on) which makes them a lot quieter but it's still annoying to know the system is using so much power.

At the moment the power grid is not so good here, so i'm forced to use a UPS unit, and one X1000 drains just a little less energy then two iMac 27", even if I'm concurrently running FS-UAE on macOS and WinUAE in a virtual machine, that's 4 emulated Classic Amigas at the same time...
When the power goes off, I usually have to turn off the Amiga right away.
A bit sad.

@Hans

Put me down for Emulation too. V Sorry. Missed the poll.

I still use 68000 applications and I love the classic AMIGA CLI/Workbench feel under csh.
Multi-cpu, accellerated video for movies / streaming are reasons I never upgraded.
Vampire looks really really interesting.
Emulation is really fast, ip stack, usb, disk access, its all there. Plus, if it doesn't work, it's a screen switch away to a computer that does.(firefox/chrome) Best AMIGA out there currently.

Last edited by SHADES on 15-Jun-2018 at 10:27 AM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@Hans

Quote:

@all While your guesses as to why people are using old or emulated hardware are probably right, I'd rather hear directly from people who have that old and/or emulated hardware.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but yeah... price and availability. Emulation I can take with me anywhere I go on a regular laptop, and emulation only gets better and better. Dedicated OS4 hardware is waaaay expensive, underpowered, and not something you can bring with you on holidays or wherever.

Also, it helps that I don't care much about gaming and all the 3D stuff, I rather want fast and responsive 2D for Workbench and productivity programs.

Last edited by kolla on 15-Jun-2018 at 11:06 AM.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@Amigo1

Be careful what you ask for .

Sam460ex + Radeon Rx 550 uses 36W for normal operations
41W watching a full screen video.

Checked by using UPS readings.

Last edited by Spectre660 on 15-Jun-2018 at 11:52 AM.

_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

@Hans

Quote:

Let's put this back into context: Lazi complained about the price of the X5000

More precisely the usage value was the subject of my complain.

@Hans

Thanks for the honest reply.
I wouldn't replace a machine with twenty-four SerDes lanes with one that has six either.

Four Gen 1.0 PCI-E lanes could be adequate, it seemed to work on the SAM460, I wouldn't resort to a PCI card as the bus bandwidth is abysmal.

But these basic stats do point out something:

AGP 8x 64-bit 34,133 Mbit/s 4,266 MB/s
AGP 8x 17,066 Mbit/s 2,133 MB/s
PCI Express (x4 link) 8,000 Mbit/s 1,000 MB/s

PCI-E Gen1 x4 is slower than AGP 8x.
Gen 2 (as in the X5000) is about on par with AGP 8X.

The X1000 with an X16 PCI-E slot has about twice the bandwidth of AGP 8X (even with Gen 1.0 lanes), about the same as 64 bit AGP 8X.

The the Talos II's video card slot has over six times the bandwidth of the X1000.

@Spectre660

Quote:

Sam460ex + Radeon Rx 550 uses 36W for normal operations 41W watching a full screen video.

I could endorse that combination.
And it shouldn't be any problem to passively cool an RX 550.

@utri007

Quote:

As it still unclear whem A1222 is released would be nice to have possibility to get better graphics card for Sam 440ep.

If you've read my diatribe about the A1222, this response may surprise you.
But at 1.2 GHz an NXP e500 cored cpu will greatly outperform a SAM440.

And the PCI expansion slots of the SAM440 will slow cpu to video card memory transfers.
Even limited to 1000 MBs, the A1222's video performance will definitely be better than the SAM440's.

Last edited by JimIgou on 15-Jun-2018 at 01:51 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 15-Jun-2018 at 01:49 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 15-Jun-2018 at 01:43 PM.

@JimIgou

Quote:

Quote: As it still unclear whem A1222 is released, would be nice to have possibility to have better graphics card for Sam 440ep. If you've read my diatribe about the A1222, this response may surprise you. But at 1.2 GHz an NXP e500 cored cpu will greatly outperform a SAM440. And the PCI expansion slots of the SAM440 will slow cpu to video card memory transfers. Even limited to 1000 MBs, the A1222's video performance will definitely be better than the SAM440's.

Sorry seems that I didn't manage to get my point understood.

I have wait A1222 two? years now, it is possible that I'll wait it two years, or five more.

Would be nice to have better graphics card NOW, I would hapily pay for it, if there would be any sensible reason.

Hans has proven that even Sam 440ep Flex get nice benefit for Radeon HD card.

@utri007

Quote:

Hans has proven that even Sam 440ep Flex get nice benefit for Radeon HD card.

If you want to plug a PCI-E card into a 33MHz PCI card slot with an adapter, go for it.
Just don't expect the kind of results you'd get out of a native PCI-E application (even a slow one like Tabor).
Tabor's video card slot has four times the bandwidth of the solution you are suggesting.

BUT, it can be done. Just check with your fellow users to see which cards work correctly with the most current firmware.
It appears that I'm not making myself clear here or on some other Amiga related sites.

Newer gpus usually provide a performance boost. Although AMD likes to recycle older designs at the low end.

Hans has mentioned the Rx550, if that works on a PCI-E to PCI adapter in a SAM440 it would make a powerful low watt option.

My only point through all of this has been that less capable hardware will produce diminishing returns with higher end video cards.
That doesn't mean there won't be an improvement.

If it make economic sense to you, go for it and let everyone know how it works out.

I'm not here to dump on anyone's fun,and this is supposed to be fun, not a contest.
So see what you can push it to do.

Last edited by JimIgou on 16-Jun-2018 at 12:53 AM.

@utri007

Quote:

utri007 wrote: I have wait A1222 two? years now, it is possible that I'll wait it two years, or five more.

AmigaOS is being beta tested on it and the network drivers are working. You won't have to wait that long.

We're still waiting on audio drivers, though...


Quote:

Hans has proven that even Sam 440ep Flex get nice benefit for Radeon HD card.

IIRC, it's Spectre660 who did that. I've never owned a Sam440.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.