@hth313

I totally agree, the lines between un*x and windows are blurring out. I would not be surprised if Microsoft will ship a Windows Desktop for Linux at some point - which pretty much will be equivalent to... AROS hosted.

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@bison

Quote:

basically have a linux system with Amiga user accounts

Yes, that is the idea exactly.
A user who had a line with the command "loadWB" in his file ".bashrc" would start "Intuition" (...) and the magic would begin.

Developing "intuition" can be a tough task, but all the initial effort would concentrate on that, just on that.

I'm currently experimenting with "Feelin" and it looks like "Prêt à porter", it's a good job.

For those who have doubts, it is NOT AROS hosted, it is not emulation.
Neither is it another "distro linux", it would be a new operating system, it would not be linux, it would not be AmigaOS 3.X, I even think it would not have the legal limitations that continually lash those of us who love the Amiga ....

It would be necessary to look for him name .....

Arix, again? :)

Well, personally I am all for using what already exists, AROS hosted has the benefit that it can run on top of not just one operating system, but many.

AROS hosted is the Amiga equivalent of GNUStep.

Last edited by kolla on 09-Aug-2018 at 10:23 AM.

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@hth313

[quote]I do not care what you guys do not like about Linux. UNIX has won, it is everywhere.[/quoet]

But then you're missing the point, because it's all about what we like and don't like, it’s a choice.

Unix systems have a lot, and we grateful for all Open Source goodies, that has come from Linux community, but fundamentally it is over kill, we don't wont all that complexity, we need to rethink what operating system should be, personally I think all major operating systems are growing out of control.

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@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: @Amigamia Except that Amithlon wasn't an AmigaOS at all.

Amithlon (The emulator part) wasn't but Amiga OS 3.9 was there and it was adapted to run on top of a highly customized Amiga emulator as you described. Otherwise why would they have used an emulator? Plus, I would not know any other way to run Motorola 68K code on top of an Intel chip without the help of one or porting the source to Intel chips, which we all know it will never happen. To do that the AROS coders had to reverse engineer everything and port it to Intel.

Last edited by Amigamia on 09-Aug-2018 at 01:04 PM.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

But then you're missing the point, because it's all about what we like and don't like, it’s a choice. .... but fundamentally it is over kill, we don't wont all that complexity, we need to rethink what operating system should be, personally I think all major operating systems are growing out of control.

Good points!

That said; Linux got some nice barebone distros, so there are things for everyone.

But fundamentally I agree with you.

@drstrangelove
Quote:

Developing "intuition" can be a tough task, but all the initial effort would concentrate on that, just on that.

You could start with the AROS version of Intuition, rather than start from scratch.

I am more interested in creating a sort of "parallel universe" Amiga that just borrows the best ideas and leaves the rest behind. My interest is in the concepts, not the original implementation.

I have this reoccurring thought, "Why is the system I am using today not as good in some ways as the system I was using thirty years ago."

@NutsAboutAmiga
Quote:

I think all major operating systems are growing out of control.

Yes, I agree with this completely. We probably only disagree on what to do about it.

@Overflow
Quote:

That said; Linux got some nice barebone distros, so there are things for everyone.

I think the minimal distros are the best. I'm not too interested in Red Hat's attempt to "catch up" with Microsoft Windows, or whatever it is that they're trying to do.

My current "Saturday Project" is to bootstrap the smallest version of Debian possible and still run an X server. I'm currently down to 247 packages.

Last edited by bison on 09-Aug-2018 at 04:50 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

But then you're missing the point, because it's all about what we like and don't like, it’s a choice.

Of course you have a choice to give up many modern features and safety for something simpler, at least as a hobby, but you not be able to make become anything but a tiny niche.

The thing is that there is not a choice when you need to make a living. I could not choose to like MS-DOS, it does not work that way. I was forced to use it.

MS-DOS was not a good enough OS, so it died. Windows is a good enough OS and its internal is in many ways done more right than UNIX (the user experience is another thing).

Today people will not have a choice either, because UNIX has won and will dominate. It does not matter that it is not done right or is the best, it is good enough and we can tweak it to get reasonable close to where we want to be.


Quote:

Unix systems have a lot, and we grateful for all Open Source goodies, that has come from Linux community, but fundamentally it is over kill, we don't wont all that complexity, we need to rethink what operating system should be, personally I think all major operating systems are growing out of control.

It depends a bit on how you define an operating system. I do not think the core operating systems have grown out of control. They consume more resources and have larger footprints, but hardware has grown faster than that. The major bloat today is on the application side, especially web browsers and some other demanding applications. They also do a lot more and use an increasing amount of abstractions which all adds up. The kernel and services are written in C and that part is under good control.

AmigaOS should really join forces with UNIX. It does not have to be like a normal UNIX but it would benefit from having a real UNIX inside that can be exposed. Getting Intuition, Workbench and a lot of API like features can be a good thing. A small bare bones UNIX on the bottom and Amiga ideas on top of it, would be a very interesting concept.

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: Arix, again? :) Well, personally I am all for using what already exists, AROS hosted has the benefit that it can run on top of not just one operating system, but many. AROS hosted is the Amiga equivalent of GNUStep.

yeah, seesh..

arix, anubis.. pople are just talking this option to the death, what if.. and the like. all just talk.

ive lately compiled arix and looked at it. considered to merge it up, even did that roughly just to see how complicated it might be. talked to devs. michal said it might be interesting but nick was against it, it has actually nothing to offer over aros hosted, was what he meant.

so dropped that for now.

@wawa

Yes, right.

I just want AROS hosted to compile and work on DragonFlyBSD, because... poetic correctness :)

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@wawa

This the issue, if can compile programs we like, because moved too far away from what Amiga looks like deep with inn, then feel the point of the exercise is lost on itself.

Function names will need to be the same, even if have to drop .libraries for .so files. Inherit .so hell, and package managers and dependences and soft links all that mess.

Carry picking what we like about Unix or Linux, while not keeping other parts we don't like be really hard and let's face it, a slippery slope. Os identity vs commonality.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @hth313 I totally agree, the lines between un*x and windows are blurring out. I would not be surprised if Microsoft will ship a Windows Desktop for Linux at some point - which pretty much will be equivalent to... AROS hosted.

I have not thought about that before, but I realize now that Microsoft may very well make a Windows desktop on top of Linux. That way they can run both Windows software and have the whole open source UNIX world as first class citizens.

Microsoft had a dreadful command line for decades, they recently introduced a new one, but it is doomed to fail as UNIX has already won. As I said, it will not matter if it is better, UNIX shells are good enough, are everywhere and have been around for long and are well established.

Kind of ironic in some way, Microsoft won the PC war, but the workstation OS (part of the oppostion they had) of that era wins the OS war...

What I try to say is that for the Amiga to be modern and successful it needs to embrace UNIX. It could be approached from the opposite end, from a working UNIX system that gradually are given more Amiga features at the UI/API end, not from ground and up.

Maybe this is in AROS hosted? I wish AROS hosted was more open for me to try on the Raspberry Pi, but they just want me to pay for trying it out and I do not really want to do that.

@kolla

Quote:

Arix, again? :)

AEOS = Amiga Enjoy OS



@bison

Quote:

creating a sort of "parallel universe" Amiga that just borrows the best ideas and leaves the rest behind. My interest is in the concepts, not the original implementation

100% agreement ...

The evolution that never happened ....

Last edited by drstrangelove on 10-Aug-2018 at 10:26 AM.
Last edited by drstrangelove on 10-Aug-2018 at 10:25 AM.

@drstrangelove

Aros would be nice if they updated the GUI for workbench it looks so bland. OS4 and Morphos have a nice look about them.

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@hth313

Quote:

I wish AROS hosted was more open for me to try on the Raspberry Pi, but they just want me to pay for trying it out and I do not really want to do that.

No, you are talking about a certain distro of AROS.

http://aros.sourceforge.net/nightly.php

Last edited by kolla on 10-Aug-2018 at 01:04 PM.

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@hth313

I assume you talk about Aeros...

Aros is free

The problem is (at the moment) that there is not much software ported to ARM as far as I know

@OlafS25

Yes, I am thinking of Aeros.

I ended up installing openSUSE on my Raspberry Pi I got recently. They have a JeOS (Just enough Operating System) flavour. It is a basic Linux which also supports aarch64. Then I just installed X11 with the window manager of my choice on top of it. I added some needed apps and I got a nice desktop up in 1080p. It does web browsing (Firefox and Chromium), ssh, Emacs, Git, Haskell and more. (Web browsing is a bit of a stretch for it though.)

I tried to build OPEN LOOK on it, as that was my idea of a vintage system that was not as dated as plain X11, but it failed to run properly and I have not had time to look further into it.

What if there was an Amiga experience instead that could be downloaded? We would have a solid system running on x86 and aarch64 from day one. Then one can just iterate from that and bring more and more into it to improve the Amiga experience. It would run all mainstream Linux software as well and it gives a safe 64-bit system, SMP, memory protection and virtual memory for free.

Sadly, I have to put food on my table and cannot devote my almost nonexistent free time to such things these days. But if anyone creates a startup for this and can offer a decent salary, give me a call.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @kolla Not 100% native is a bit ugly.

So, I assume that you use no emulators at all, included things like Petunia (OS4) and Trance (MorphOS) for running Amiga 68K applications.

@Hypex
Quote:

Hypex wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Then I doubt that they have solved the robustness (and protection) issues. At the time it didn't. It prevented them. But they didn't have time to do what they wanted. So all the good features got displaced by another system. However I don't know how the DOS affected the kernel upstream.

I don't think that it was just a question of time. The plan was to have a port to PowerPC, not a new o.s. with modern features.
Quote:

Quote: I definitely prefer too the AmigaDOS CLI, devices, volumes and assigns concepts, and I'm NOT a big fan of Unix et similia: LOL. That looks funny. And what's amusing, the foreword I was reading by a Mac guy, who didn't like Unix. But in the years after he wrote it, Apple would abandon Mac OS and embrace Unix as the core of the next Mac OS incarnation. The irony.

ROTFL
Quote:

I wonder had the Amiga survived, on some other ISA, and years down the track, they dumped AmigaOS in favour of a Unix model with Workbench sitting on top, and destroyed AmigaDOS with something like Linux and bash in place, if Amiga people would have still continued to buy into it? Had it been a similar hardware model with custom hardware. Since that's what happened to the Mac in a nutshell.

It's not a question of buying or not buying something which you don't like. If you have no real/concrete/good alternative, then you're forced to buy even things that you don't like, because you need them anyway.

That's what happened to me at least, since I puked against DOS and Windows when I was a blind Amiga fanatic, but I had to switch to them once Commodore went in bankrupt, and the successors weren't able to sustain/revival the Amiga platform.

Life continues...

@hth313
Quote:

hth313 wrote: @agami I do not care what you guys do not like about Linux. UNIX has won, it is everywhere. When I left university in the early nineties, I entered a corporate computing world dominated by Microsoft operating systems and they really were not human friendly. I suffered a lot enduring this time. 10 years later (about 15 years ago) I told my ex-boss, UNIX has won, it is everywhere except on Windows. He did not entirely agree at that time. Today, Windows is shipping with a Linux subsystem.

It's not: you can have it only if you install some proper binaries, but it's still NOT a Linux subsystem. It's rather a Microsoft reimplementation of Linux (kernel) APIs, so basically the equivalent of WINE, but in the exact opposite roles (maybe Windows has won thanks to WINE, according to your standard? ).

What's really available from Linux is the user-land: the applications (binaries).
Quote:

UNIX is truly everywhere. Now the roles are reversed. UNIX is the main thing and time will only make that even more firm.

Sorry to break your dream, but you still have to wait until any sort of Unix is running as the main system (at least the kernel).