@BigD

As you say, most people aren't even buying computers anymore. All my friends and relatives are buying what I call "devices". I'm a computer guy I have 3 running (and doing work) at the same time. What really scares me is these Home Hubs. Google, Portal, Alexa. etc. Complete loss of privacy. Big brother is watching us now. If you haven't seen the original version of Orwell's "1984" it should be in YouTube starring Edmund O'Brien. Scared the sh*t out of me as a kid. Now it's here!

@g0blin

Merry Christmas to you and yours too. I was there at the beginning and bought my first Amiga 500 in 1988. Thrilled to have a real paint program finally. (I'm an artist) Americans never got a chance to abandon something they failed to embrace. Remember, Uncle Jack got his "Jackintosh" out the door 6 months before the Amiga. Ali and Gould were fools to let him go. I'd have at least stalled him with promises about Sam getting to be a VP of marketing until the Amiga was launched, then fired him!

The first 250,000 ST's were sold to programmers who wanted to learn programming the 68000 but didn't have $3000 for a black and white Mac. Within a year they all regretted it. It was just a game machine with so many corners cut to beat Commodore it was useless, unexpandable, and had file formats incompatible with other computers. The only notable software that was ever developed was (I still call it "Atari Pagestream") and they jumped ship to the Amiga after the Atari ST failed. At that time Amiga support was excellent. Commodore even sent a tech rep to my home office to install the new 2.04 roms at no extra charge (just the cost of the roms) so I could start booting from a hard drive. (I thought 40 Mb was huge!)

When I left California in '94 our local computer dealer had pallets of A1000's on display for sale at $50 including monitor. No one wanted them! It took 2 years for Commodore to sell 250,000 Amiga 1000's. I should've bought 6, but feared they were dead like the C64 would soon be. I've got to read David's book.

@BigD

I should add that Commodore, Apple, and Atari all expected their 8 bit base to upgrade to the new machines, but they wouldn't. I knew members of the C64 club and understood how much they had to negotiate with their wives to spend $2500 on a computer system in 1985. The wife usually got to spend a similar amount on what she wanted (No knock on women, but the 90 members of our Amiga user group were all men, women were welcome.) Then they had to negotiate more to get time to use the "family computer" (i.e. Play Games). They viewed their computer systems like their homes or television sets. No way were they going to upgrade every 18 months like I did (batchelor!) They bought one and that would be it. Otherwise Amigas would've quickly defeated the black and white Macs and 512 color low res ST's. Apple even formed a bogus group called "Apple II Forever" to placate their nervous customers and employees, but it was a lie. Jobs even used hidden software tricks to slow down Woz's Apple II GS (the supposed "Amiga killer") that failed on it's own lack of merits. The C64 should've died sooner than it did, but Berkley Software brought out GEOS and fooled all the 64 owners into thinking they had an operating system, when actually it was using memory in a machine that already didn't have enough memory! I got out in a hurry, but the rest of them hung on to their 8 bit dreams while all new software and games went beyond their reach. They eventually ended up buying "Devices" or giving in to a Windows PC as the business community had made the PC a huge success.

@Doofus

Thanks for your thourogh report. It's a very good insight of what happened back then. As I said in a previous post, I'm not so naive to think that Amiga could be ruling the computer world these days but, at least, we could have had a chance to ... have a choice.
Instead, I use Windows because I have to at work (and now even at home); I used Linux because it was indeed better than Windows (for the most part I could tell it what to do, instead of suffering it), but only with Amiga I feel at home. And, despite what most people think, it's not because I am nostalgic.

PS: yes, I think you have to read that book, expecially the part in which R.J. Mical apologizes for how bad AOS1.0 was. And I guess this is exactly the point: to have to balls to apologize, restart from scratch and get better. Just my 2 cents...

Last edited by g0blin on 27-Dec-2018 at 01:47 PM.

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@matthey

Quote:

- lacks 64 bit CPU, standard FPU, SIMD unit and Amiga custom chip compatibility

The PA6T/5020/5040 CPU's are 32bit/64bit hibrid cpu's.
So if you like run 64bit version of Linux, you can do that on this systems.
(AmigaOS4.1 has some work around to access memory above 4Bytes, for systems with support for more memory then 4Gbytes.)

PowerPC G4 was used on Pegasus II, AmigaONE XE and Micro AmigaONE.
and as you know the PowerPC G4 has SIMD (Altivec).

It be more correct to say that all different PowerPC ISA's make it hard to support and optimize code, I guess because PowerPC embedded chips where tailed to be used for different applications (network routers, cpu for use in printers, cpu's automation), while we are trying to use different ISA's for desktop computing.

EDIT: come to think of it, its not unlike problem we have with MC680x0 cpu's where some CPU's have FPU and some do not, some CPU's have MMU and some do not, and 68080 has none standard MMU, then you have 68080 with SIMD, while most 680x0 cpu's do not have it. a typical 680x0 program came in 020, 040,060 and 000 version as well, because newer instructions did work older cpu's. Or they where not optimized at all.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Dec-2018 at 11:30 PM.
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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Dec-2018 at 10:47 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Dec-2018 at 10:42 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Dec-2018 at 10:40 PM.

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I did leave the Amiga too somewhere around 2003 since it was not a viable platform anymore to do my daily stuff.
My A1200T also broke down (PSU fried Z4 Busboard) and then it went quiet for many years without actively using the Amiga.
Around 2005 there was a short revival when i repaired/re-build a friends A4000 with csppc+cvppc etc etc.
I had much fun for about a month or two with this system boy i forgot how quick AmigaOS was!
I connected to my PC with RDP to have a nice modern browser.

Then it went quiet for many years, i kept following the Amiga news and developments but not more then that not even running WinUAE.
But then in 2016 i saw the Vampire V2 on a A600 in action, man this cool and FAST!!!
On that club day i played around with that system and it ticked all the boxes for me, no big and bulky tower needed, 128 MB of memory,RTG and at a affordable price.
So that got me back into the Amiga game and now i own a Vampire 600 and A V4 teamboard that get used every day!.

In short when you leave you'll be back sooner or later, it's a great and fun hobby for me and testing with the Apollo-team has been so much fun for the last 2+ years!

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Quote:

It be more correct to say that all different PowerPC ISA's make it hard to support and optimize code, I guess because PowerPC embedded chips where tailed to be used for different applications (network routers, cpu for use in printers, cpu's automation), while we are trying to use different ISA's for desktop computing.

Tabor is lowering the average/standard spec of AmigaOS 4 PPC hardware. Altivec optimized code, standard FPU optimized code and 64 bit AmigaOS 4 support are less likely as more Tabors are sold (the only major modern feature the Tabor CPU has is multi-core support which AmigaOS 4 does not support). Even if Tabor is successful at selling to the masses, it may be counterproductive for AmigaOS 4.

PPC is pretty much end of line anyway. Maybe the AmigaOS 4 guys will learn from their (lack of) standardization mistakes. Standardization will likely be easier on other architectures like AArch64 although AmigaOS 4 may be late to these architectures compared to other Amiga flavors. They could choose the 68k architecture as that may be the most desired Amiga user/customer route. The Natami "MX Bringup Thread" with 761487 views (last I looked) dwarfed Trevor's Amiga Blog thread on this forum with 258487 views over a longer time period. It is easier to give users/customers what they want as some people in this thread have suggested.

Quote:

EDIT: come to think of it, its not unlike problem we have with MC680x0 cpu's where some CPU's have FPU and some do not, some CPU's have MMU and some do not, and 68080 has none standard MMU, then you have 68080 with SIMD, while most 680x0 cpu's do not have it. a typical 680x0 program came in 020, 040,060 and 000 version as well, because newer instructions did work older cpu's. Or they where not optimized at all.

The 68k started when it was not practical for the CPU to include units like an FPU and MMU. Amiga accelerators did a good job of using full (MMU+FPU) 68040 and 68060 CPUs even as C= failed to understand the logic of raising the standard specs of hardware (68EC040 or 68LC060 optimized binaries are rare for example). Code optimized for the 68020-68060 or 68020-68060 with FPU should run with good performance on all of these targets. There were major ISA mistakes made like removing FINT/FINTRZ from the 68040 FPU and removing 64 bit integer MULU/MULS from the 68060 which make optimizing for a particular 68k CPU beneficial in some cases. Integer code optimized for a 68060, including instruction scheduling, is otherwise usually optimal on a 68020-68030. Effort has been put into the Apollo Core to make legacy 68k code run well but the Apollo Core handles large instructions more like a 68040, superscalar instructions like an improved 68060, long latency instructions often in fewer cycles than any 68k CPU and has the SIMD unit. It is enough different that it would benefit more from optimizing for the target if it had compiler support but this is unlikely due to radical ISA decisions for an FPGA only CPU target.

@AmigaBlitter

I feel with you. Been without amiga/lost interest since beginning of 2016. Soon 3 years. Even Winuae is getting dust. Logged in here today for historical reasons, to read some news :)

Last edited by Kicko on 29-Dec-2018 at 11:04 PM.
Last edited by Kicko on 29-Dec-2018 at 10:59 PM.

I also left a few years ago for the same reason, and I see that things have not changed

@AmigaBlitter

yea .... the same ... left around 2006/2007 .... remember the hype from an Mozilla compatible browser and LibreOffice on Amiga ......
Now 2019 nothing of this important basics have happen - not even close ....
Starting from time to time FS-UAE - nice backflash .... but the time is going on ...
The Amiga HW AND the OS is not more years behind actual systems - it is now decades ...............

Regards

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Long Live T H E [|D|A|R|K^><^E|M|P|I|R|E|]

Hi @ll,
I merely see you all as if you're just all in a pause mode, exploring other things for a time lap, but you've never really left that community as you're all still here today, and you're still welcomes! I hope you'll came back all when things will be better.
See ya!

Regards,
Petrol.

@R-TEAM

Quote:

yea .... the same ... left around 2006/2007 ....

It is quite evident to me that we all still dabble in the Amiga / Amiga community despite giving up on the Amiga as our primary computer format. I think that is reasonable to say. Despite this most here still retain a fondness for the Amiga way of doing computing!

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@BigD

Quote:

It is quite evident to me that we all still dabble in the Amiga / Amiga community despite giving up on the Amiga as our primary computer format. I think that is reasonable to say. Despite this most here still retain a fondness for the Amiga way of doing computing!

I would guess many simply have a fondness for their childhood. :)

Last edited by terminills on 07-Jan-2019 at 12:33 PM.

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@terminills

Quote:

I would guess many simply have a fondness for their childhood. :)

I think there is more to it than that. I actually find it hard to use modern computers for fun stuff unless I click off the wi-fi or boot into an older OS partition with old browser / flash technology. The internet is an addictive time waster and older tech was in many ways more productive.

_________________
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@Doofus

Quote:

The first 250,000 ST's were sold to programmers who wanted to learn programming the 68000 but didn't have $3000 for a black and white Mac. Within a year they all regretted it.

I never did, Apple products did and still suck. The only reason I own a few is to run MorphOS.
Company support is limited, repairs and upgrades are often best left to third parties, the lifespan of the machine's is shorter than it should be, my Lenovo has a spill resistant keyboard (no Mac does), AND the comnpany abandons older hardware, even going to the extreme of creating updates that slow down older devices decreasing their performance.

Don't believe me? Talk to an older iPhone owner.

If you are dumb enough to buy that crap, count on having to upgrade it regularly.

And btw, I Iearned how to program the 68000 on Peripheral Technolgies PT68K4 systems first, the ST was just for fun. And as the ST line advanced Midi and sound support were superior to both the Amiga and the Mac.

Apple hardware has always been over-hyped, over priced, and backed by a cult of deluded fanatics.

You (or any of you that have the extra funds to waste on it) can buy it. I haven't been impressed with Apple since the days of the Apple II when a machine that was based on a $5.00 processor could cost upwards of $2000 or more.

Quote:

Kicko wrote: @AmigaBlitter I feel with you. Been without amiga/lost interest since beginning of 2016. Soon 3 years. Even Winuae is getting dust. Logged in here today for historical reasons, to read some news :)

Once an amigan always one kicko! I know you were working on some new music on your miggy over at amigans.net a few years back ..did you release any new stuff lately?

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@matthey

Yes, Tabor does decrease the likelyhood of a 64 bit Amiga OS, and its slow.

A T10XX based system might only run at 200 MHz faster, but is fully 64 bit and benchmarks much better than the small clock speed difference would tend to make you believe (also, that series can support both DDR3 AND DDR4).

A T2080 based system would move us to the E6500 core which is multi-threaded, so that the four core T2080 supports eight simultaneous threads at up to 1.8 GHz and is only a little more expensive than the T10XX.

And PPC is NOT dead. The G5 (IBM 970) was 64 bit, featured a hardware hypervisor, was Power4 based, andwas still considered a PPC.

In my opinion a Power cpu in a PC system (and not in a server) IS a PowerPC.

And Power continues to be developed, the latest, Power 9 is still only in a limited release, and will be in general release soon. And Power10 is already in development. Also, this is an open platform (unlike X64). Want to license it? IBM is supporting third party manufacturers.

So, what I'D really like? Power9 support. If we can't get it from Aeon, well there is always Raptor Engineering's Blackbird.

An eight core/32 thread Blackbird costs little more than a 2core/2 thread X5000, and is SO much more powerful.
Powerful enough to run our existing software, any more advanced OS developed, supports both big endian and little endian code so porting Webkit will be easier, and can run X64 software in emulation at more than adequate speeds.
Aeon hardware can not do that.

Last edited by JimIgou on 07-Jan-2019 at 07:17 PM.

@JimIgou

There are little endian instruction in PowerPC chips like G4, this instructions are called "reverse".

But here is the problem all 680x0/AmigaOS3.x programs are big endian, all PowerPC/AmigaOS4.x programs are big endian, the os is big endian.

You can't simplet compile it for little endian and expect it to work. nothing will work.

They made it work on MacOSX only because they had special compilers that made fat executable, compiled for two endiene types in one exe file, also lot testing went into that. this days you can't run 680x0 mac programs on MacOSX x86, you can't run MacOS9 programs on MacOSX x86, they killed backwards compatibility.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @JimIgou They made it work on MacOSX only because they had special compilers that made fat executable, compiled for two endiene types in one exe file,

2 endians in the fat binaries meant very little, it was just away to have both instruction sets in place without the need to emulate.

Remember pure PPC code worked o.k. in early Intel releases of OSX.


The real difference is that the API and codebase always was endian-agnostic considering it started out on 68k, was ported to x86, got rebranded, was released for PPC (x86 version continued behind closed doors) and ported to x86 (64bit).

Amiga API is full of pointers to structs that contain pointers or direct values encoded in big-endian, quite messy in comparison.

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@JimIgou

Quote:

, the ST was just for fun. And as the ST line advanced Midi and sound support were superior to both the Amiga and the Mac.

The ST was to 68k what the Amstrad/SchneiderCPC was to the Z80:

Just enough off the shelf HW to make it an attractive option in the lower range of the markets.

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