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bison 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 1-Nov-2020 15:53:17
#161 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1777
From: N-Space

There certainly is a lot of Sturm und Drang on this thread. Lighten up, Francis!

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OlafS25 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 1-Nov-2020 17:27:54
#162 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5849
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

you see it wrong

Amigakit wrote on amigans that the money is earned with what you call "classic", NG is only about loosing money. And what are the resources you would like to concentrate on 4.1? There are only few volunaries doing something and of course without payment. Development has stalled (report from betatesters).

If there is not Trevor D. opening again his pockets there will nothing happen. Unfortunately the relationship between Ben H. and Trevor D. seems to be not so good at the moment so I do not see that happen.

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matthey 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 1-Nov-2020 22:30:52
#163 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 852
From: Kansas

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
Hyperion's legit business is ONLY about OS4. Do you know / understand it? It's from very long time which we're discussing about it, but it seems that you don't understand or, even worse, you do NOT want to understand it.

Everything else (in the classic Amiga land) is NOT a legit business for Hyperion. Full dot.


How do you define a "legit business"? Is it necessary to make a profit? Is it necessary to provide the sole source of income for someone or full time employment for someone? Is it necessary for the business to flawlessly obey all laws and contracts? What disqualified Hyperion's game porting as a "legit business"?

Quote:

A port is a port: NOT a development. Full dot.


The definition of "develop" is very broad. I would consider porting development. Most of the current development on the Amiga is porting by "developers" which is no less important even if there is less creation as implied by the definition of develop. If creating target specific code is not development, then the creation of compiler backends would not be development either.

Quote:

And that's the problem: RunInUAE is NOT part of OS4, and it's in the emulation field, which is Cloanto's business. NOT Hyperion's business.


RunInUAE could become part of AmigaOS 4 as many other pieces of software have become (even a web browser can become part of an OS). If Cloanto had a non-exclusive license to distribute Amiga kickstarts, then there could be crossover of markets between Hyperion and Cloanto products. It all depends on the contract and settlement agreement between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion which I don't know the details of. Amiga Inc. appeared to have the stronger claims of IP which should now be transferred to Michele and his created businesses but is bound by existing contracts with Hyperion, unless they were violated and legally voided.

Quote:

But in the meanwhile nobody is entitled to use any Commodore's ROM for emulation without an agreement with Cloanto.


Was Cloanto's license to sell kickstart ROMs exclusive?

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number6 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 1-Nov-2020 23:21:31
#164 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11025
From: In the village

@matthey/cdimauro

In case this helps any of you in this thread:

Quote:
11. I am informed that Hyperion's inclusion of"Amiga OS 3.1" in its AmigaOS 4.1
update from 2011 was, in fact, solely for the purpose of running Amiga OS 3. l inside AmigaOS
on Power PC Amiga systems. This use does not involve running Amiga OS 3 .1 as an
independent operating system, but functioned solely to allow legacy Amiga applications to run
better within AmigaOS 4. Thus, the 2011 use was within the rights granted in the 2009
Settlement Agreement.


Source signed Bill McEwen

#6

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*Secrecy has served us so well*

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matthey 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 2-Nov-2020 0:58:42
#165 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 852
From: Kansas

@number6
Thanks. I expected Amiga Inc. would have been happy to have the best possible AmigaOS 3 compatibility on PPC hardware without Amiga custom chips and they likely had the rights to allow Hyperion to do it. This implies that Cloanto had a non-exclusive license for kickstart ROMs as well.

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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 2-Nov-2020 6:37:05
#166 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2192
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

Its good thing there are alternatives old outdated rom’s from Cloanto, at least the AROS ROM’s that are being worked on, and does not require a license from Cloanto.

Then let's use them, instead of grabbing the original ones.
Quote:
I don’t see what hardware vendors like Vampire or other companies like individual computers, can make custum rom's that works with there new hardware.

They are patching the ROMs.
Quote:
Profit manganese are low,

They are so low that Hyperion decided to jump into this business...
Quote:
unless you end up with Vampires and Warp060's prices equally to AmigaONE’s.

(Most Amiga users this days have paid for ROM’s 10 times or more, including the got there first Amiga back 1988. The Macintosh roms are now freely available from Apple)

And there are so many interesting emulation solutions these days, Amiga emulators running web browsers, emulators PSP, and Android, its all over the place, many places where you can’t install Amiga Forever. Many of emulators are none profit, so it wont make sense to pay Cloanto for outdated roms.

No problem: then don't pay and do NOT use the old ROMs.
Quote:
Cloantos business attempt to monopolize emulation will fail.


Is it your wish or something which came from your crystal ball?
Quote:
Its just shame that he is trying to stop the development of the classic roms.


That's completely false. Again. Is there any chance that you can say something true about Cloanto?
Quote:
I don’t mind if Hyperion has to focus on AmigaOS4.1 development, (insted of wasting a lot of time on 3.x),

As Olaf already pointed-out, it's because the business is all about the "classic": it's where money come from.
Quote:
it is what is most needed right now, for Trever and customers that are waiting for new hardware.

New hardware? Are you kidding? Those embedded SoCs are coming from computer science Stone Age...
Quote:
and beta files are ready from publication from leaked sources.

Then why they aren't released to the customers?

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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 2-Nov-2020 6:44:52
#167 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2192
From: Germany

@Petah:


"Intelligenti pauca"

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kolla 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 2-Nov-2020 6:51:38
#168 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1621
From: Trondheim, Norway

Looks like many have not understood that Cloanto today is not Cloanto of yesteryears. Cloanto today represents all previous owners of Amiga, who have sold all their rights, IP etc to Cloanto. So everything from ESCOM Amiga Technology to latest incarnations of McEwen etc is now entirely lawfully in the hands of Cloanto. Not just “for emulation purposes”, but everything.

Remember how “by mistake” OS 3.1.4 initially was tagged “All rights reserved” and marked with Hyperion copyrights all over (including on physical media) and then silently changed to “Developed under license” a couple of weeks later? That, right there, was Hyperion admitting that they don’t own OS 3.1.4. Licenses are a funny thing, they require a licensee (Hyperion) and a licenser, and in the case of OS3, the licenser was Amiga Inc, which today is... Cloanto. Another thing with licenses is that they can be revoked. Hyperion exists by the mercy of Cloanto. The original agreement between Amiga and Hyperion was that Hyperion was given access to the sources to port and develop OS4 on PowerPC, and after that, hand the sources back to Amiga. This never happened, Amiga didn’t even physically have the sources themselves, and to get them, Hyperion had to go to old OS 3.9 developers. This was no biggie, as many of them were also happy to contribute on OS4. Problem was that OS4 never really entered a state of being “finished”, and nothing was ever transferred back to Amiga. Hence the dispute that ended in the 2009 settlements. At that time, OS3 on 68k was not an issue, everything was about OS4 and onwards, on PPC or whatever relevant architectures that would be next.

Enter the Vampire cards and the 68080.

Thomas Richter wrote at some point that in his view, OS 3.1.4 is legal and rightfully belong to Hyperion because it technically is “OS4 development” on a “whatever relevant architecture”. He also state that they specifically avoid targeting emulation since that would be stepping on Cloanto’s toes. Initially the OS 3.1.4 archive with kickstarts had a directory named “for emulation” (or similar), this was changed to something less direct along with the copyright changes in the “silent” second release.

I also vaguely recall that he wrote that they did indeed approach Cloanto for continued OS3 development, but that Claonto didn’t have source code and at the time didn’t have much to offer. Hyperion of course had the benefit of not just having the sources, but even having them sorted out and worked into (at the time) a modern repository, by Olsen.

I sit here with the old OS 4.0 for Classic CD and there are quite a few components in OS4.0 that still are 68k and are also used initially for bootstrapping the OS4 PowerPC kickstart. On the 4.1 FE CD, these have been “reverted” to old OS3.1 binaries. Why is that? Perhaps another sign that certain developers at least, realize that 68k development, even as subtile as basic 68k components which only exist to bootstrap OS4, may in breach of contracts...

Last edited by kolla on 02-Nov-2020 at 06:52 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 2-Nov-2020 6:58:51
#169 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2192
From: Germany

@matthey Quote:

matthey wrote:
Quote:
cdimauro wrote:
Hyperion's legit business is ONLY about OS4. Do you know / understand it? It's from very long time which we're discussing about it, but it seems that you don't understand or, even worse, you do NOT want to understand it.

Everything else (in the classic Amiga land) is NOT a legit business for Hyperion. Full dot.

How do you define a "legit business"? Is it necessary to make a profit? Is it necessary to provide the sole source of income for someone or full time employment for someone? Is it necessary for the business to flawlessly obey all laws and contracts?

Yes.
Quote:
What disqualified Hyperion's game porting as a "legit business"?

I was talking about the emulation / classic field: not about game porting, which is a legit business for Hyperion.
Quote:
Quote:
A port is a port: NOT a development. Full dot.

The definition of "develop" is very broad. I would consider porting development. Most of the current development on the Amiga is porting by "developers" which is no less important even if there is less creation as implied by the definition of develop. If creating target specific code is not development, then the creation of compiler backends would not be development either.

The action of writing code is development in a broad sense, but creating new products is development, while adapting them for running on different platforms is commonly called porting.
Quote:
Quote:

And that's the problem: RunInUAE is NOT part of OS4, and it's in the emulation field, which is Cloanto's business. NOT Hyperion's business.

RunInUAE could become part of AmigaOS 4 as many other pieces of software have become (even a web browser can become part of an OS). If Cloanto had a non-exclusive license to distribute Amiga kickstarts, then there could be crossover of markets between Hyperion and Cloanto products. It all depends on the contract and settlement agreement between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion which I don't know the details of. Amiga Inc. appeared to have the stronger claims of IP which should now be transferred to Michele and his created businesses but is bound by existing contracts with Hyperion, unless they were violated and legally voided.

Indeed. Let's clarify it after, since #6 has reported something interesting.
Quote:
Quote:
But in the meanwhile nobody is entitled to use any Commodore's ROM for emulation without an agreement with Cloanto.

Was Cloanto's license to sell kickstart ROMs exclusive?

AFAIR it is for emulation.


@number6 Quote:

number6 wrote:
@matthey/cdimauro

In case this helps any of you in this thread:Quote:
11. I am informed that Hyperion's inclusion of"Amiga OS 3.1" in its AmigaOS 4.1
update from 2011 was, in fact, solely for the purpose of running Amiga OS 3. l inside AmigaOS
on Power PC Amiga systems. This use does not involve running Amiga OS 3 .1 as an
independent operating system, but functioned solely to allow legacy Amiga applications to run
better within AmigaOS 4. Thus, the 2011 use was within the rights granted in the 2009
Settlement Agreement.

Source signed Bill McEwen

#6

Thanks: it helps a lot.

Running the Amiga o.s. 3.1 on an emulator like with RunInUAE is not allowed because then it's running "as an independent operating system".

Everything else (like using AREXX or other parts of the 68K o.s. under emulation) is allowed.


@matthey Quote:

matthey wrote:
@number6
Thanks. I expected Amiga Inc. would have been happy to have the best possible AmigaOS 3 compatibility on PPC hardware without Amiga custom chips and they likely had the rights to allow Hyperion to do it. This implies that Cloanto had a non-exclusive license for kickstart ROMs as well.

See above: Hyperion cannot use them for running the entire Amiga o.s. 3.1 as an independent o.s..

BTW, only 3.1 can be used: no other version is allowed.

And it's interesting to note that this is only limited to the PowerPC platform. So, OS4 is doomed to stay on this obsolete architecture. Dreamers that wanted it on different platforms can rest in peace...

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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 2-Nov-2020 7:02:12
#170 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2192
From: Germany

@kolla Quote:

kolla wrote:
Looks like many have not understood that Cloanto today is not Cloanto of yesteryears. Cloanto today represents all previous owners of Amiga, who have sold all their rights, IP etc to Cloanto. So everything from ESCOM Amiga Technology to latest incarnations of McEwen etc is now entirely lawfully in the hands of Cloanto. Not just “for emulation purposes”, but everything.

Remember how “by mistake” OS 3.1.4 initially was tagged “All rights reserved” and marked with Hyperion copyrights all over (including on physical media) and then silently changed to “Developed under license” a couple of weeks later? That, right there, was Hyperion admitting that they don’t own OS 3.1.4. Licenses are a funny thing, they require a licensee (Hyperion) and a licenser, and in the case of OS3, the licenser was Amiga Inc, which today is... Cloanto. Another thing with licenses is that they can be revoked. Hyperion exists by the mercy of Cloanto. The original agreement between Amiga and Hyperion was that Hyperion was given access to the sources to port and develop OS4 on PowerPC, and after that, hand the sources back to Amiga. This never happened, Amiga didn’t even physically have the sources themselves, and to get them, Hyperion had to go to old OS 3.9 developers. This was no biggie, as many of them were also happy to contribute on OS4. Problem was that OS4 never really entered a state of being “finished”, and nothing was ever transferred back to Amiga. Hence the dispute that ended in the 2009 settlements. At that time, OS3 on 68k was not an issue, everything was about OS4 and onwards, on PPC or whatever relevant architectures that would be next.

Enter the Vampire cards and the 68080.

Thomas Richter wrote at some point that in his view, OS 3.1.4 is legal and rightfully belong to Hyperion because it technically is “OS4 development” on a “whatever relevant architecture”. He also state that they specifically avoid targeting emulation since that would be stepping on Cloanto’s toes. Initially the OS 3.1.4 archive with kickstarts had a directory named “for emulation” (or similar), this was changed to something less direct along with the copyright changes in the “silent” second release.

I also vaguely recall that he wrote that they did indeed approach Cloanto for continued OS3 development, but that Claonto didn’t have source code and at the time didn’t have much to offer. Hyperion of course had the benefit of not just having the sources, but even having them sorted out and worked into (at the time) a modern repository, by Olsen.

I sit here with the old OS 4.0 for Classic CD and there are quite a few components in OS4.0 that still are 68k and are also used initially for bootstrapping the OS4 PowerPC kickstart. On the 4.1 FE CD, these have been “reverted” to old OS3.1 binaries. Why is that? Perhaps another sign that certain developers at least, realize that 68k development, even as subtile as basic 68k components which only exist to bootstrap OS4, may in breach of contracts...

Game, Set, Match...

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pavlor 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 2-Nov-2020 8:18:16
#171 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9208
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
And it's interesting to note that this is only limited to the PowerPC platform.


Source for such claim?

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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 2-Nov-2020 8:45:10
#172 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2192
From: Germany

@pavlor Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro
Quote:
And it's interesting to note that this is only limited to the PowerPC platform.

Source for such claim?

Please read the document provided by #6.

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pavlor 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 2-Nov-2020 8:53:17
#173 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9208
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

But that is only a declaration of one party...


As always one should not make far reaching assumptions before the final ruling.

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OlafS25 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 2-Nov-2020 9:55:41
#174 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5849
From: Unknown

@pavlor

What I read about the settlement also sounded not like Hyperion could do everything with the sources but only use it for developing 4.X what made sense at that time because nobody expected 68k to become the only profitable branch in future. And if I would have been Amiga Inc. I would also never signed a settlement that more or less gives everything of value in the hands of Hyperion (except brand "amiga"). But that has to be seen if the lawsuit is decided. At the moment we can only discuss opinions that depend on personal views. I also think that Hyperion is moving on thin ice, propably they did not expect Cloanto to defend themselves and certainly they did not expect Cloanto to buy what was left from Amiga Inc.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 02-Nov-2020 at 09:56 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 02-Nov-2020 at 09:56 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 2-Nov-2020 11:26:25
#175 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2192
From: Germany

@pavlor Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

But that is only a declaration of one party...

As always one should not make far reaching assumptions before the final ruling.

Correct. I've just re-read the Settlement, and there's no mention about PowerPC. So, I regret from this.

But it's clearly stated that the "Software" is only the Amiga o.s. 3.1, and it can be used (the agreement talks about "part". So, not even the full software) for developing OS4.

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eliyahu 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 10-Dec-2020 22:33:13
#176 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1846
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@thread

For those interested Trevor's presentation from AmiWest 2020 has been uploaded in high-quality to Youtube today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajLvza4BuaA

-- eliyahu

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Spectre660 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 11-Dec-2020 17:22:36
#177 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3885
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Version up scaled to 4k for download for AmgaNG full 4K aspirants .

Link

Quote:

eliyahu wrote:
@thread

For those interested Trevor's presentation from AmiWest 2020 has been uploaded in high-quality to Youtube today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajLvza4BuaA

-- eliyahu


_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 11-Dec-2020 17:56:03
#178 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 473
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

For those interested Trevor's presentation from AmiWest 2020 has been uploaded in high-quality to Youtube today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajLvza4BuaA


Now, my friend, we can better appreciate Trevor's eyelid blush makeup.
"Thanks".

MRJM

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--
CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK

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number6 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 17-Mar-2021 13:58:05
#179 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11025
From: In the village

@thread

AmiWest 2021 info/dates

#6


_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

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TearsOfMe 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 17-Mar-2021 18:46:51
#180 ]
Member
Joined: 31-Dec-2009
Posts: 89
From: Westerwald

I wonder if the things that were announced at the 2020 might have been released by then. But at least this way they can reuse the old presentations.

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