ZORRAM

_________________
I HAVE ABS OF STEEL
--
CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: Quote: number6 wrote: but the point on my part was to illustrate people exist with both the skill and the motivation to do the work. The fact they are not nurtured, but intentionally discouraged is "criminal", imo. #6 Criminal... I don't know.

Here's how it's criminal.

If I have a Kickstarter/Indiegogo (crowdfunding) campaign to deliver some software, and I raise a whole bunch of money, and then I never deliver. Would that be somewhat criminal?
You might say: These users knew or should have known that crowdfunding is a risk.

If I open a Casino, and I rig the games to favor the house more than other Casinos do. Would that be somewhat criminal?
You might say: The Casino does not owe its patrons a specific level of return on their gambling money.

The companies in question took money from Amiga users in good faith, and the price tag explicitly and implicitly included promises of upgrades and future functionality. And then these companies go out of their way to make it very difficult for upgrades and future functionality to be delivered, resulting in keeping personal profit money that would otherwise be paid for such upgrades and functionality.

Purchasers of AmigaOS 4 systems, and especially A-Eon systems have essentially been robbed of the full effect of the spoken and unspoken agreements of what the companies will deliver in return for the asking retail price.

To garner consumer confidence, A-Eon should have set up an Escrow account and held ~25% of the retail price, released to them upon delivery of full functionality of purchased systems, or released back to the consumers if said functionality is not delivered within n years.

Just because AmigaOS 4 users are generally quick to forgive these companies, does not make their actions any less unethical or, an argument could be made, criminal.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: Just because AmigaOS 4 users are generally quick to forgive these companies, does not make their actions any less unethical or, an argument could be made, criminal.

Friend agami, this is exactly the point: OS4 users are the primary problem and responsible for this situation.

In a normal world if you buy a license for a product which isn't yet delivered after more than 10 years then you make a class action and bring to the court the company which cheated you.

However OS4 users aren't normal persons (besides some exceptions): they are blind fanatics.
OS4 is, for them, as a totem: their new god. And its developers and the company which is (well, it WAS supposed to) delivering it are seen as their ministers. Yes, it's exactly like a religion: no difference here.

So, those users tend to protect their heroes, whatever it happens and whatever those heroes make to them, even when bad things happen.

It's the Stockholm syndrome, plus or minus.

Do you expect that this people constantly living on his checkered dreams could realize it and decide to assert is rights? Nope. No chance.

But, at the very end, is it really important? We're talking about their money. So, like Trevor, they can do whatever they want with them:

@cdimauro

Quote:

That's the only thing that he can do right know to continue cow-milking using his OS4.

The income stream for Hyperion is absolutely AmigaOS 3.x, although you could argue 4.x provides value -to- 3.x due to things like the backporting.

Quote:

It's the Stockholm syndrome, plus or minus.

already covered here

In fact devs have openly posted about how their love has them trapped.

You could argue that operating under fear of having your love taken away from you is also not so conducive to a business model.

@agami

Although I appreciate your analysis, I was referring with the word "criminal" to the human damage I've been forced to witness for 2 decades as a result of actions taken or not taken.
It is one of those intangible things, not often considered in a discussion of cause and effect here.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 26-May-2022 at 12:29 PM.
Last edited by number6 on 26-May-2022 at 12:15 PM.

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

@agami

Quote:

If I have a Kickstarter/Indiegogo (crowdfunding) campaign to deliver some software, and I raise a whole bunch of money, and then I never deliver. Would that be somewhat criminal? You might say: These users knew or should have known that crowdfunding is a risk. If I open a Casino, and I rig the games to favor the house more than other Casinos do. Would that be somewhat criminal? You might say: The Casino does not owe its patrons a specific level of return on their gambling money.

What makes it criminal is the intent - not necessarily the action.
1 - If the Kickstarter sponsors are able to justify the reasons for the lack of delivery, it may be not criminal.

2- Casino - In Las Vegas it would be criminal because the intent is to defraud the patrons. Gambling is to play games of chance for money.

Quote:

The companies in question took money from Amiga users in good faith, and the price tag explicitly and implicitly included promises of upgrades and future functionality. And then these companies go out of their way to make it very difficult for upgrades and future functionality to be delivered, resulting in keeping personal profit money that would otherwise be paid for such upgrades and functionality.

Again, was there intent to defraud the buyers of OS4? I am not familiar with all the terms of the licensing agreement - but there we have to go into the definitions of product warranties of merchantability and fitness for specific purposes.

Last edited by Nonefornow on 26-May-2022 at 04:40 PM.

@cdimauro

Quote:

They want to be bounded to a 32-bit (31, in reality) big endian architecture because having 68k apps running transparently (with the native ones) is the most (and maybe only) important thing which they care of.

This was a major feature. If 68K support wasn't transparent OS4 would have died in the ass. It's so tightly wound that even 68K interrupts are emulated in the supervisor mode of the native PPC.

In any case Amithlon can run x86 native code making calls to an emulated OS on an opposite endian, as well as emulating both code and OS on an opposite endian, so it's certainly possible to work around it.

But, of course we don't want to be bounded by 31 or 32 bits. That's a DOS limitation. And also, things like tag lists are 32 bit in design. Fact is AmigaOS was designed for a 32 bit CPU. There's more chance it could run on SMP than in 64-bit. It would obviously need a redesign to run a proper 64-bit. Could be a good idea. Commodore were taking AmigaOS into the OOP domain but basing it on C made it looks like a sloppy hack. OS4 also uses C but the implimentation is neater and more hidden in the interfaces model. But BOOPSI hasn't been extended to use it AFAIK. I think it would make sense to replace OS4 with a fresh C++ AmigaOS design.

Quote:

Anyway, selecting PowerPCs when OS4 started was already the wrong choice at the time. But it was Amiga Inc.'s fault here, so in line with the tradition of Commodore's bad management...

It was chosen before OS4 was started. As far back as 1996 there were documents detailing a move of AmigaOS to PowerPC. Though it didn't have direct support OS4 was built on the same CPU as WarpOS and PowerUP. No other CPU would have worked because no other CPU than PPC is on Amiga accelerator cards. The only exception is bridgeboard cards and they weren't going to port it to x86 to run on that where it's even more exclusive and slower than a PPC card.

I don't see how Amiga the Inc had influence on this. I met Bill the Mc daddy of the whole operation and they were only interested in x86. And also AmigaDE which wasn't AmigaOS at all. Also, the first OS4 announced was an x86 OS. So OS4 really should have been an x86 OS and should not have had any relation to AmigaOS at all. OS4 was not meant to be an AmigaOS. Not after Commodore.

Quote:

"[...]there's no documentation how to write a kernel module for example. Everything is locked behind NDA walls. So this will make it hard to write a NVMe driver for example." That's... unbelievable!

Kernel module? Is this Linux?

No it's not that hard. You just include a ROMTag like in 68K and use OS4 calls. Lump a kmod on the end and dump it in the Kicklayout.

The hardest is writing the technical code, testing and debugging it. As the X1000 Ethernet driver can attest too. OS4 has no concept of the difference between a process or an interrupt when it records a crash log. When the reaper blames who is sitting in ThisTask rather then the real offender it's no wonder it can take years to write drivers. I found this myself the hard way when I knew my own code was freezing the system inside an interrupt when all these random processes were blamed. Given how major it is to know what and where code crashed during a total system lock up inside an interrupt, especially in device drivers that rely on interrupts, I'm surprised they haven't fixed this major flaw up.

Anyway here's an old example of device driver code. Old as in it's been around for a few years. But would be current.

https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Anatomy_of_a_SATA_Device_Driver

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: @cdimauro Quote: That's the only thing that he can do right know to continue cow-milking using his OS4. The income stream for Hyperion is absolutely AmigaOS 3.x, although you could argue 4.x provides value -to- 3.x due to things like the backporting.

This is another sad chapter.

Unfortunately the AmigaOS3 developers deliberately decide to ignore what was happening between Hyperion and Cloanto / Amiga Corporation, and filled Ben Herman's pocket (which evidently use the money "for a just cause"). They did it, and Olaf clearly stated this here some time ago, because they like to work on this o.s.. So, only to satisfy their ego. And egoism, I would say.

To my they are Ben jointly-responsible and, as I've already written it here, I suggest Michele Battilana to sue them if he wins the lawsuit, because they infringed his IPs, working on them without having the rights to do it.
Quote:

Quote: It's the Stockholm syndrome, plus or minus. already covered here

LOL You were the precursor...
Quote:

In fact devs have openly posted about how their love has them trapped. You could argue that operating under fear of having your love taken away from you is also not so conducive to a business model.

Indeed. And, as I've said before, they should pay for their ego/ism.

@cdimauro

Quote:

To my they are Ben jointly-responsible and, as I've already written it here, I suggest Michele Battilana to sue them if he wins the lawsuit, because they infringed his IPs, working on them without having the rights to do it.

Would you be surprised though, if an indemnification clause existed in regards to this?

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: @cdimauro Quote: They want to be bounded to a 32-bit (31, in reality) big endian architecture because having 68k apps running transparently (with the native ones) is the most (and maybe only) important thing which they care of. This was a major feature. If 68K support wasn't transparent OS4 would have died in the ass.

Primarily because porting all needed components (I mean: for at least booting the machine) would have required A LOT of work and debug without the 68k emulator (which allowed to write PowerPC components one at the time, using the 68k ones as a fall-back).

In fact, running 68k software was already possible using UAE.
Quote:

It's so tightly wound that even 68K interrupts are emulated in the supervisor mode of the native PPC.

That's because they decided to have 68k code as "first citizen", like the PowerPC one. With the pros and cons of this solution.
Quote:

In any case Amithlon can run x86 native code making calls to an emulated OS on an opposite endian, as well as emulating both code and OS on an opposite endian, so it's certainly possible to work around it.

And Emu68k as well.
Quote:

But, of course we don't want to be bounded by 31 or 32 bits. That's a DOS limitation.

No, it was already an Exec limitation.
Quote:

And also, things like tag lists are 32 bit in design. Fact is AmigaOS was designed for a 32 bit CPU.

Correct: that's the point.
Quote:

There's more chance it could run on SMP than in 64-bit.

I beg to differ here as well: SMP isn't possible due to Amiga o.s. (bad) design.
Quote:

It would obviously need a redesign to run a proper 64-bit. Could be a good idea.

Then it's already available: it's AROS for x64.
Quote:

Commodore were taking AmigaOS into the OOP domain but basing it on C made it looks like a sloppy hack. OS4 also uses C but the implimentation is neater and more hidden in the interfaces model. But BOOPSI hasn't been extended to use it AFAIK. I think it would make sense to replace OS4 with a fresh C++ AmigaOS design.

It would have been enough to use a classic OOP implementation, using structures and VMTs, instead of the HORRIBLE solution which is BOOPSI: one of worst OOP implementations that I've seen in my life...
Quote:

Quote: Anyway, selecting PowerPCs when OS4 started was already the wrong choice at the time. But it was Amiga Inc.'s fault here, so in line with the tradition of Commodore's bad management... It was chosen before OS4 was started. As far back as 1996 there were documents detailing a move of AmigaOS to PowerPC.

No, PowerPC wasn't the only ISA, but one of many.
Quote:

Though it didn't have direct support OS4 was built on the same CPU as WarpOS and PowerUP. No other CPU would have worked because no other CPU than PPC is on Amiga accelerator cards.

But those didn't come from Commodore. Rather from private companies.

So, it's not correct to say that PowerPC was the choice only because of them.

I've to remind you that Amiga had several other accelerators, with the most famous ones using INMOS' Transputers.
Quote:

The only exception is bridgeboard cards and they weren't going to port it to x86 to run on that where it's even more exclusive and slower than a PPC card.

Ah, yes: I forgot them. So, even x86 was a good candidate. The first one, if you consider Commodore's Sidecar.
Quote:

I don't see how Amiga the Inc had influence on this. I met Bill the Mc daddy of the whole operation and they were only interested in x86. And also AmigaDE which wasn't AmigaOS at all. Also, the first OS4 announced was an x86 OS. So OS4 really should have been an x86 OS and should not have had any relation to AmigaOS at all. OS4 was not meant to be an AmigaOS. Not after Commodore.

But it was Amiga Inc. which commissioned the Amiga o.s. PowerPC port to Hyperion. That's why it was its fault.
Quote:

Quote: "[...]there's no documentation how to write a kernel module for example. Everything is locked behind NDA walls. So this will make it hard to write a NVMe driver for example." That's... unbelievable! Kernel module? Is this Linux? No it's not that hard. You just include a ROMTag like in 68K and use OS4 calls. Lump a kmod on the end and dump it in the Kicklayout.

So, the guy was wrong? It isn't true that there was a NDA for some needed documentation?
Quote:

The hardest is writing the technical code, testing and debugging it. As the X1000 Ethernet driver can attest too. OS4 has no concept of the difference between a process or an interrupt when it records a crash log. When the reaper blames who is sitting in ThisTask rather then the real offender it's no wonder it can take years to write drivers. I found this myself the hard way when I knew my own code was freezing the system inside an interrupt when all these random processes were blamed. Given how major it is to know what and where code crashed during a total system lock up inside an interrupt, especially in device drivers that rely on interrupts, I'm surprised they haven't fixed this major flaw up.

I don't understand what is complicated the things so much when writing X1000's Ethernet drivers, since other ethernet drivers have been written AFAIR.
Quote:

Anyway here's an old example of device driver code. Old as in it's been around for a few years. But would be current. https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Anatomy_of_a_SATA_Device_Driver

Thanks. It doesn't look so complicated.

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: @cdimauro Quote: To my they are Ben jointly-responsible and, as I've already written it here, I suggest Michele Battilana to sue them if he wins the lawsuit, because they infringed his IPs, working on them without having the rights to do it. Would you be surprised though, if an indemnification clause existed in regards to this? #6

Not surprised. Then I hope that it's already there.

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: @cdimauro Quote: To my they are Ben jointly-responsible and, as I've already written it here, I suggest Michele Battilana to sue them if he wins the lawsuit, because they infringed his IPs, working on them without having the rights to do it. Would you be surprised though, if an indemnification clause existed in regards to this? #6

You mean an indemnification clause from Hyperion?
Having an indemnification clause does not stop you from being sued. It just means that the other party of the contract promises to cover all legal expenses and all fines in case they get sued.
If it exists, that indemnification clause is not worth the paper it is written on because Hermans would just not honor it.


Anyway, it is moot. Cloanto will not sue them. Why would they? Cloanto wants to open source it all once the lawsuits are over and suing and driving away the people most likely to contribute to and maintain the sources is the opposite of what they want to do.
Cloanto has no beef with them, only with Hyperion.

@V8

Quote:

Cloanto wants to open source it all once the lawsuits are over and suing and driving away the people most likely to contribute to and maintain the sources is the opposite of what they want to do.

Given the statements of the senior members of the 3.x team which basically equates to "no open source ever. period" it seems to me there is some convincing yet to do in order to save the valuable contributors, no?

Regardless, given this sentiment the more current policy related by Mike concerning 3.x was expressed:
Here

#6

Last edited by number6 on 26-May-2022 at 11:04 PM.

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: @agami Quote: agami wrote: Just because AmigaOS 4 users are generally quick to forgive these companies, does not make their actions any less unethical or, an argument could be made, criminal. Friend agami, this is exactly the point: OS4 users are the primary problem and responsible for this situation. In a normal world if you buy a license for a product which isn't yet delivered after more than 10 years then you make a class action and bring to the court the company which cheated you. However OS4 users aren't normal persons (besides some exceptions): they are blind fanatics. OS4 is, for them, as a totem: their new god. And its developers and the company which is (well, it WAS supposed to) delivering it are seen as their ministers. Yes, it's exactly like a religion: no difference here. So, those users tend to protect their heroes, whatever it happens and whatever those heroes make to them, even when bad things happen. It's the Stockholm syndrome, plus or minus.

c’mon seriously now so I’ve been involved since pre-release and bought my first ever PPC mother board from ACube which happens to run my all time favourite OS. I’ve loved using/ testing & communicating with so many users like me and also dealing directly with many developers over the years. I was directly involved with helping/ testing the software for the Catweasel MKIV+ that I use everyday writing/ saving/ backing up all my old Amiga floppies on my X1000. I even sent over my own SID chip to the developer to help out with the OS4 driver….heck almost daily over at amigans.net there’s lots of stuff going on and NO we users don’t like what’s going on with Hyperion and A-Eon and lawsuits…head over to amigans and read some threads yourself.

anyhow I usually don’t bother …especially here anymore trying to make sense….Franko I miss you & your squirrels man!

Last edited by klx300r on 26-May-2022 at 11:05 PM.

_________________
____________________________
c64-2sids, A1000, A1200T-060@50(finally working!),A4000-CSMKIII
! My Master Miggies- Amiga 1000 & AmigaOne X1000 !
mancave-ramblings
X1000 I BELIEVE

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: Regardless, given this sentiment the more current policy related by Mike concerning 3.x was expressed: Here #6

Interesting:

Amiga Documents
OTOH legal issues started before 3.1.4 (which was not developed by Hyperion, but was a free contribution by some developers who had nothing better to do or to go to). And in 2007 Hyperion's legal case against Amiga was funded by the person who now controls the kernel of OS4...

So, Trevor founded The lawsuit. I was recalling right.

Then he deserves no respect.

@klx300r

Quote:

klx300r wrote: Quote: cdimauro wrote: Friend agami, this is exactly the point: OS4 users are the primary problem and responsible for this situation. In a normal world if you buy a license for a product which isn't yet delivered after more than 10 years then you make a class action and bring to the court the company which cheated you. However OS4 users aren't normal persons (besides some exceptions): they are blind fanatics. OS4 is, for them, as a totem: their new god. And its developers and the company which is (well, it WAS supposed to) delivering it are seen as their ministers. Yes, it's exactly like a religion: no difference here. So, those users tend to protect their heroes, whatever it happens and whatever those heroes make to them, even when bad things happen. It's the Stockholm syndrome, plus or minus. c’mon seriously now so I’ve been involved since pre-release and bought my first ever PPC mother board from ACube which happens to run my all time favourite OS. I’ve loved using/ testing & communicating with so many users like me and also dealing directly with many developers over the years. I was directly involved with helping/ testing the software for the Catweasel MKIV+ that I use everyday writing/ saving/ backing up all my old Amiga floppies on my X1000. I even sent over my own SID chip to the developer to help out with the OS4 driver….heck almost daily over at amigans.net there’s lots of stuff going on and NO we users don’t like what’s going on with Hyperion and A-Eon and lawsuits…head over to amigans and read some threads yourself.

This is a red herring. Trying to change the discussion is useless with me: I recognize it and put it right back on the topic.

You're an X1000 user. Then please show me your copy of AmigaOS 4.2.

Then show me how SMP (NOT a generic multi-core support: SMP was promised!), Gallium (NOT Nove3D: Gallium was promised!), and 64-bit (NOT the ridiculous bank-switching which is using part of the 32-bit PowerPC standard) are working.
Quote:

anyhow I usually don’t bother …especially here anymore trying to make sense….Franko I miss you & your squirrels man!

Nobody forces you to read this discussion, and even worse contribute by writing...

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: Then he deserves no respect.

I am glad,
friend cdimauro,
that this oh so important epiphany finally caught up with you.

He deserves no respect.

He deserves a wooden stake,
a silver bullet,
holy water,
a pentagram of banishment.

You found one reason in your heart, one, for which he does not deserve respect.
That number, my late-night dwelling friend,
is much higher.

The number of digits of that number barely belongs to the realm of the countable.

Sleep well, dearest friend.
Sleep cuddled by this newfound truth.








/mega......

_________________
I HAVE ABS OF STEEL
--
CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK

@Nonefornow

Quote:

What makes it criminal is the intent - not necessarily the action.

Not necessarily. One can be criminally negligent.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@number6

Quote:

@agami Although I appreciate your analysis, I was referring with the word "criminal" to the human damage I've been forced to witness for 2 decades as a result of actions taken or not taken. It is one of those intangible things, not often considered in a discussion of cause and effect here.

I was sticking to the material examples.

I didn't want to get into emotional damage. As you say, that is much more difficult to quantify. I wish I could simply point to all the emotional scars my Amiga fandom has brought me over the decades. Most of which were caused by the suffering since 2010.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@V8

Quote:

You mean an indemnification clause from Hyperion?

I think @#6 was referring to the developer indemnifying and holding Hyperion harmless for the work they produce.

Which it turns that for all intents and purposes would not be their work as they could never exercise traditional ownership over such work and take it elsewhere, [cough]MorphOS[/cough].

For crying out loud Hyperion, why not just cut their hands off so they can never create code for any other master.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: Not necessarily. One can be criminally negligent.

Only in my spare time.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

PADDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

_________________
I HAVE ABS OF STEEL
--
CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK