@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote: Quote: Hammer wrote: @OneTimer1 Fun Fact via Commodore - The Final Years, A600 was designed to kill GVP. Mehdi Ali hates GVP. [quote] Mehdi Ali and Bill Sydnes continued looking for ways to hurt GVP’s dominance of the Amiga peripherals aftermarket. “Basically a number of people at Commodore felt that GVP was growing too large,� recalls Bucas. “So finally Commodore management decided I don't believe this, the best way to kill GVP would have been an early A1200 or A4000 instead of an A600. The A600 don't stop people buying Accelerators for their bare A500, a faster A1200 might have done this.

Commodore definitely did see GVP as a competitor after sales of their own accelerator cards started dying. But that was on the A2000, not the A500. Even if Ali was trying to hurt GVP with the A600, the 'impact' on GVP's sales would have been minimal. Commodore had already sold millions of A500s and A500+s, so there was plenty of potential for sales of the A530 - assuming that's what owners wanted. But while GVP might have selling a relatively large number of A530's, for how long would that continue? The A500 was getting tired and most fans wanted more than just a CPU upgrade. By 1992 most were probably looking at getting a PC rather than upgrading their A500.

Anyway that didn't last long. Bucas was very happy when the A1200 was released a few months later with a full 32-bit trapdoor slot, and wasted no time producing accelerator cards for it. By this time Commodore had decided to leave expansion card production to 3rd parties, including GVP. Some fans say this was a mistake, but I agree with it. Commodore had enough trouble just making the A1200 itself in quantity.

As for the A600 not having a CPU expansion slot, with probably 95% of A500 owners not upgrading their machines beyond a 0.5MB RAM card and extra disk drive, it made sense to drop that feature to get the cost down. That was the primary motivator, not screwing GVP.

A negative narrative developed around the A600 based on a few statements made public and general sentiment at the time. Bucas's claim that Ali ordered it to hurt GVP is part of it. Another part is that it was supposed to be cheaper than the A500, but ended up costing more. While technically true, there were good reasons for that:-

- It was challenge to get the price below the A500 due it's having already paid its development costs and being made in far-East factories at the lowest possible cost. The 2 layer PCB was dirt cheap despite its size, and other components were also honed for lowest cost over many years. Nevertheless Sydnes accepted the challenge after Porter reportedly said "Oh yeah,? Do you know who designed the A500? Just try it asshole". Now that's a challenge!

- Commodore had to go fully smd to stay competitive, but initially the retooling would cost them. Economy of scale meant the first batch of A600s would likely sell at a loss. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, but Commodore was being squeezed by its creditors and needed to make money ASAP, so they 'had' to set a higher price.

- An A300 that was cut to the bone with no expansion capabilities at all would not go down well. The Germans (rightly IMO) insisted that it have a hard drive interface, and it needed some kind of bus expansion beyond the trapdoor ChipRAM connector. But the 50 pin 0.1" Zorro connector was too big. Having yet another proprietary connector would be a pain.

PCMCIA was an upcoming standard for laptop PCs and other devices, and a similar port was already being used the CDTV, so it was a good choice. It meant memory cards etc. could be immediately available on launch. There was also the possibility of using it as a cartridge port. The only downside was the slim farm factor meant cards tended to be expensive, but 2MB RAM cards for the A600 were no more expensive than similar expansions for the A500.

The other claim that is accepted without question is that despite costing more the A600 did less than the A500. But this isn't true. The A500 didn't have ECS, didn't have ks2 and didn't have 2MB ChipRAM. The A600 was actually closer to the A500+, with the bonus of an internal hard drive and modulator. The only thing missing was the numeric keypad, which got very little use apart from in a few flight simulators. Sure it didn't have the Zorro bus expansion connector, but that wasn't needed when it already had everything most people who would have bought an A500 wanted.

There was really only one thing about the A600 which made it disappointing - it didn't have AGA. A curious thing about the A1200 is that if you remove the mouse port and bit of circuit board next to it that doesn't have anything on it, the PCB will actually fit in the A600 case. What a pity Commodore didn't produce that instead! But then had they not designed the A600 first, they might not have had the experience to do the A1200.

Last edited by bhabbott on 23-Nov-2024 at 08:02 AM.

@bhabbott

A600 has extra PLL chips for PCMCIA's byte swaps and laptop PCMCIA slot. A500 has the cheaper PCB edge connector without byte swap PLL chips.

Quote:

The other claim that is accepted without question is that despite costing more the A600 did less than the A500. But this isn't true. The A500 didn't have ECS, didn't have ks2 and didn't have 2MB ChipRAM. The A600 was actually closer to the A500+, with the bonus of an internal hard drive and modulator. The only thing missing was the numeric keypad, which got very little use apart from in a few flight simulators. Sure it didn't have the Zorro bus expansion connector, but that wasn't needed when it already had everything most people who would have bought an A500 wanted.

The A500P Rev 8 has ECS Denise, different pins ECS Agnus, 512 KB Kickstart ROM support, and a 2 MB Chip RAM limit. A500P Rev 8 was released before the A300/A600.

1989 era A500 Rev6A PCB has reserve 2MB Chip RAM jumpers capability, 512 KB Kickstart ROM support, and compatibility with A3000's ECS Agnus B. Commodore management decided to assign full ECS for A3000's 1990 release. A500 Rev6A PCB is ECS-ready.

In Sep 1988, ECS was demo'ed on 16-bit A2000 before A3000.

A500's side CPU expansion doesn't need to be kitbashed like on A600's i.e. less stable 020/030 accelerator on surface mounted 68000 in a small case.

A500's large case and socketed 68000 allow the A500 to scale with 68040-28 or 68040-33 accelerator. The missing feature is RTG.

ACA500 shows A500's side edge connector to be closer to A1200's internal CPU edge connector. ACA500 is an A1200 CPU accelerator card adaptor for A500.

Without AmigaOS device drivers, PC PCMCIA cards are useless for Amiga PCMCIA.

Quote:

@bhabbott, As for the A600 not having a CPU expansion slot, with probably 95% of A500 owners not upgrading their machines beyond a 0.5MB RAM card and extra disk drive, it made sense to drop that feature to get the cost down. That was the primary motivator, not screwing GVP.

Wrong. You missed Ali's anti-GVP memo. By 1992, GVP's revenue reached $35 million and A500's market size was in the multi-million install base.

Investing in a fat 040 accelerator for A500 is pointless without RTG. Like many A500 owners, I rather buy a 32-bit PC with a fast SVGA clone for similar money.

Last edited by Hammer on 22-Nov-2024 at 11:23 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 22-Nov-2024 at 11:16 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 22-Nov-2024 at 11:07 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 22-Nov-2024 at 11:02 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 22-Nov-2024 at 10:58 PM.

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@bhabbott

Quote:

The other claim that is accepted without question is that despite costing more the A600 did less than the A500

I have big news for you: A500 plus existed before A300/A600, not other way around.
At time of A300 introduction,. all A500s were on sales replaced by A500 plus.

Even intended to cost less and offer a bit more. A600 turned out to be absolete
|unnecessity since 1 year later A1200 appeared. Very wrong line of thinking.

Same with CD32 first instead of CD units for A1200.

CD32 could suceed if it added 030, some 3D and FAST RAM to it and same for A1200, but making A1200 in console CD case was plain dumb, resulting in

In the end Atari had better computer with Falcon.

A3000 AGA DSP was big missed opportunity - AGA earlier, no A500 plus and A600 just A2000ECS, and further AGA models with DSP, FAST RAM and at least 030, maybe a bit weaker 030.
020 was supposed to be introduced with A2000 but CBM was laisy to even use 68010.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Mehdi Ali could have issued a direct order for the AA500 design in February 1991.

But the AGA chips weren't ready in 1991!

Last edited by BigD on 23-Nov-2024 at 12:28 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 23-Nov-2024 at 12:26 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 23-Nov-2024 at 12:26 AM.

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The way for Commodore to take market share from GVP was to create better value products. Commodore used the cheapest possible everything everywhere if they could get away with it. They successfully killed the high end Amiga market and walked the line between low end and obsolete in their quest for the cheapest possible C64 replacement.

vox Quote:

CD32 could succeed if it added 030, some 3D and FAST RAM to it and same for A1200, but making A1200 in console CD case was plain dumb, resulting in In the end Atari had better computer with Falcon.

Without chipset development delays, a 68EC030&AA+@28MHz with at least double the AGA chip mem bandwidth, 8MiB max chip mem (CD32 maybe 3 or 4MiB?), real chunky modes, faster blitter and 16-bit sound would have made the CD32 much more competitive even without 3D hardware. It would have made the Amiga 1200 much more competitive too as non-interlaced VGA resolutions could be supported in more colors, high density disk drives could be used at full speed, the serial port would be buffered and the increased 68EC030 address space could allow the PCMCIA port to be used with other address using add-ons like memory (address space size: 68EC020=16MiB, 68EC030=4GiB). The better AA+ integration would have offset some of the increased spec increase, allowed for smaller footprint hardware and the full CMOS chipset design likely would have offset much of the power increase from the higher clocked 68EC030 and chipset. Commodore needed 7 years to produce a major Amiga chipset upgrade and it was a rushed and only half upgraded AGA chipset that was too little too late.


vox Quote:

A3000 AGA DSP was big missed opportunity - AGA earlier, no A500 plus and A600 just A2000ECS, and further AGA models with DSP, FAST RAM and at least 030, maybe a bit weaker 030. 020 was supposed to be introduced with A2000 but CBM was laisy to even use 68010.

An AGA Amiga 3000 would have been nice but it was not the project that was going to save Commodore, at least not without an earlier AGA chipset where the Amiga 3000 launched with AGA instead of ECS. Launching with AA+ specs in 1990 may have made it a successful high end graphics workstation and the flicker fixer could have been saved to lower costs (AA+@57MHz chipset was planned for double the bandwidth over the lower end AA+@28MHz).

A 68020 Amiga 2000 at introduction could have allowed 32-bit expansion slots for a much earlier Zorro III standard. Amiga 2000s would have remained more upgradeable and useful machines with large memory and graphic card options. This would have been better for most customers in the long run rather than so many limited Zorro II and ISA slots. It would have increased the price of the Amiga 2000 but it would have been a higher performance and high end Amiga with or without the Ranger chipset.

Last edited by matthey on 23-Nov-2024 at 03:35 AM.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: Without chipset development delays, a 68EC030&AA+@28MHz with at least double the AGA chip mem bandwidth, 8MiB max chip mem (CD32 maybe 3 or 4MiB?), real chunky modes, faster blitter and 16-bit sound would have made the CD32 much more competitive even without 3D hardware.

This implies that specs were the main issue in the CD32 failure when in reality it was everything but.
Specs were o.k. compared to every other console available in 93, price wasn't competitive (and would have been much worse with your specs) but the real problems were the lack of exclusive launch titles, questionable marketing and the whole US patent clusterf###.

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@ Forum

Quote:

Kronos wrote: This implies that specs were the main issue in the CD32 failure when in reality it was everything but. Specs were o.k. compared to every other console available in 93, price wasn't competitive ...

We should always keep in mind how consoles are priced and how they are marketed:

Consoles have to be cheap and the price is subsidized by the sales of the games, the marketing is totally different to the PC(Amiga) market.

It was something C= didn't or couldn't do with the CD32, consoles have a high number of exclusive titles that are only possible if you are already in the gaming market or if you pay the publisher to support you.

The Sony Playstation, that had a better performance came later.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 23-Nov-2024 at 01:37 PM.

Kronos Quote:

This implies that specs were the main issue in the CD32 failure when in reality it was everything but. Specs were o.k. compared to every other console available in 93, price wasn't competitive (and would have been much worse with your specs) but the real problems were the lack of exclusive launch titles, questionable marketing and the whole US patent clusterf###.

Value was a problem so either better specs and/or a lower price would have improved sales and chipset upgrades were one of the cheapest ways to improve value for mass produced hardware. Commodore docs mentioned an upcoming 68k SoC was expected to drop the cost of Amiga systems by $100 USD but it would have included value adding AA+ upgrades too (68EC030&AA+@57MHz). The cost of more memory would offset some of the integration savings but some of the performance is wasted without it. Increasing memory to 3MiB could have been a reasonable compromise but 4MiB should have been considered too to make porting PC games easier. The Amiga did not have ultra memory saving console like chipsets with many sprites including features like flipping or tile support and the AmigaOS used some memory. The Amiga was half way between a console and PC as a lighter weight version of the PC desktop spec which did save memory. The 68k Amiga could more easily, cheaply and compatibly be upgraded than PCs and most consoles but Commodore did not upgrade the C64 and the Amiga was supposed to be the C64 replacement. Amiga's largest early advantage of a highly integrated chipset is what killed Commodore when they failed miserably to adequately upgrade and cost reduce it.

The CD32 spec was weak other than having a low cost CD-ROM. It competed with the CD-ROM system competition mostly based on price and leveraging the existing Amiga game library.

3DO
+ much better chipset than AGA
+ better 3D support
+ more and faster memory than the CD32
+ upgradeable OS
+ low royalties for games
- expensive hardware
- no existing game compatibility and game support was slow to appear

CD-i
+ universal CD based system but ended up more like CDTV
+ gained some unique content and games for the system
+ upgradeable OS
- very expensive
- no existing game compatibility
- hardware not as gaming oriented
- weak 68000 CPU

Sega-CD
+ affordable Sega Genesis/Mega Drive upgrade
+ Large game library to enhance for CD like the CD32
- required original console
- based on aging hardware with some upgrades like AGA
- lack of OS limited upgradeability while retaining compatibility
- only a faster clocked 68000 was possible

SNES
+ good console chipset
+ large game library with 6502 family CPU compatibility
+ fast cartridge loading
+ affordable
- weak CPU performance and features
- lack of OS and CPU severely limited upgradeability while retaining compatibility
- no CD-ROM upgrade

Atari Jaguar
+ maybe the 2nd best hardware behind 3DO, at least on paper
+ fast loading
+ affordable
- hardware bugs resulted in some games falling back to using the 68000 I/O controller
- new hardware with few games
- poor controller
- CD-ROM upgrade was too late in 1995 and only had 13 games

If the CD32 was a failure, it was less of a failure than 3DO, CD-i and CDTV which I expect were overall financial failures. I would not be surprised if the CD32 was a financial success or at least near break even. If Commodore had survived, continued CD32 sales likely would have made the project profitable as a whole if it was not already. Better value was needed to carve out enough console market share and survive the Saturn and PS1. The PS1 has a reputation as a monster but the launch was not as good as the Saturn and a few years were needed to build a library of 3D game titles. It was the better value of the PS1 hardware with Sony's low cost vertically integrated mass production that won the console market. The CD32 price would have had to drop to below half of the PS1 price to survive but it was more universal hardware that could be turned into a full computer and was used in the embedded market (kiosks and set top boxes) so it is possible it could have survived until a 3D chipset could be integrated into the 68k Amiga SoC. The PS1 fixed point integer 3D support was low quality and an upgraded CD32 that was closer to PC specs could have allowed PC games to more easily be ported to it. The 68k does not have the power problems that caused the first XBox to use PPC until newer fab processes allowed x86(-64) into consoles.

Last edited by matthey on 23-Nov-2024 at 05:59 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 23-Nov-2024 at 05:40 PM.

@matthey

Out of the consoles you listed only SNES (you know the one with the weakest specs) was a success.

Being "less of a failure" is still a failure.

It's not just value, but also value vs your target market.

At least in Europe at that time consoles were something only bought by (grand)parents for kids 10 or under in relatively numbers as even a SNES was just to much for what just a toy and nothing more.

The whole idea of buying a "real computer" even if it just ended up as glorified game consoles was what made C64 and Amiga(500) such huge successes.

At about the same price as an A1200 (or an A500 3 years prior) the CD32 just wasn't in the average XMAS present budget and adults buying consoles for themselves wasn't yet a thing (and would have needed much more/better/different launch titles).

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Quote:

Kronos wrote: At least in Europe at that time consoles were something only bought by (grand)parents for kids 10 or under in relatively numbers as even a SNES was just to much for what just a toy and nothing more. The whole idea of buying a "real computer" even if it just ended up as glorified game consoles was what made C64 and Amiga(500) such huge successes.

Ack! Consoles where not very popular in Germany.

There was an advertisement that would explain why Home Computers where much more popular than Consoles:

Situation job interview:

------------------------
Boss:
Oh you where a gamer and you landed 6 Million U.F.O.s ?

Candidate:
Yes (hopefully)

Boss:
You are a good gamer and what did you know about computers?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oePfE0tN7ds (Austrian version only)
------------------------

This sounds up the idea behind the home-computers for kids, parents saw the computer as some kind of investment in the future of their children. Game consoles where meant for gaming only.

Back then I had a C64 (paid it myself) and I wrote some games that where published in magazines, so it really worked for me.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 23-Nov-2024 at 08:58 PM.

Kronos Quote:

Out of the consoles you listed only SNES (you know the one with the weakest specs) was a success.

I expect the SegaCD with 2.24 million units sold was a success too. It was based on the 1988 released Sega Genesis/Mega Drive with about 35 million units sold or about 37 million units sold counting Minis. The 1988 Genesis and 1990 SNES provided most of their value with the chipset like the original Amiga although the Amiga and Genesis chose a better CPU in the 68000. The Amiga CD32 AGA chipset was far from the strength of the CD32 and could be considered a weakness other than the fact it is small and backward compatible. The 68k Amiga/CD32 was able to upgrade to a 68EC020 and could have increased the CPU further while maintaining compatibility which would have caused incompatibility for the SegaCD. The CD32 could also better utilize added memory. Yes, the SNES and Genesis scaled to a more limited and cheaper lower spec but the CD32 could scale to a much higher spec, even multi-GHz CPUs and up to at least 2GiB of memory with a SoC ASIC that is cheaper than a meal. There are CD32 owners who have upgraded their console to a 68060@100MHz, more memory than most 68k Amiga systems and large drives that are more like mini versions of modern consoles. This is not possible even with the 3DO, Saturn, PS1, PS2, PS3, etc. up to x86-64 consoles. The 68k Amiga/CD32 was the lighter weight, smaller footprint and more affordable version of the x86(-64) PC that Commodore did not think they needed to upgrade to remain competitive.

Kronos Quote:

Being "less of a failure" is still a failure.

The amount of failures is important as large ones can be catastrophic. The big Japanese console businesses often bet more on their consoles which is how Sega ended up out of the game. The CD32 was a small bet with minimal spending on the launch and advertising. It was not enough to save Commodore but it did not bankrupt them either.

Kronos Quote:

It's not just value, but also value vs your target market. At least in Europe at that time consoles were something only bought by (grand)parents for kids 10 or under in relatively numbers as even a SNES was just to much for what just a toy and nothing more. The whole idea of buying a "real computer" even if it just ended up as glorified game consoles was what made C64 and Amiga(500) such huge successes. At about the same price as an A1200 (or an A500 3 years prior) the CD32 just wasn't in the average XMAS present budget and adults buying consoles for themselves wasn't yet a thing (and would have needed much more/better/different launch titles).

I agree that value is relative to the market competition. The CD32 was a hard sell in the Europe market without reducing the price and having boxes on the shelve with a keyboard and mouse (with a nice pic showing the setup). Actually, it needs a drive of some kind to be useful which is no longer a cheap upgrade. Commodore missed the mark by not including enough value, including not enough expandability into a computer out of the box and not enhancing and cost reducing the chipset enough. They were close to what later upgradeable consoles became and could upgrade later versions of the CD32 like was planned with the CD32+. They were just too little too late.

CD32 had a reputation for being flimsy (the CD lid broke easily) and for barely having any new games. In an alternative reality, CD32 and A1200 could have existed as a “small box� Amiga with external keyboard and tray loading mechanism, available in beige and charcoal…

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@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:

I expect the SegaCD with 2.24 million units sold was a success too.
[/quote]

9 million Dreamcast, 13 million WiiU neither considered a success.

Quote:

It was based on the 1988 released Sega Genesis/Mega Drive with about 35 million units sold or about 37 million units sold counting Minis. The 1988 Genesis and 1990 SNES provided most of their value with the chipset like the original Amiga although the Amiga and Genesis chose a better CPU in the 68000. The Amiga CD32 AGA chipset was far from the strength of the CD32 and could be considered a weakness other than the fact it is small and backward compatible. The 68k Amiga/CD32 was able to upgrade to a 68EC020 and could have increased the CPU further while maintaining compatibility which would have caused incompatibility for the SegaCD. The CD32 could also better utilize added memory. Yes, the SNES and Genesis scaled to a more limited and cheaper lower spec but the CD32 could scale to a much higher spec, even multi-GHz CPUs and up to at least 2GiB of memory with a SoC ASIC that is cheaper than a meal. There are CD32 owners who have upgraded their console to a 68060@100MHz, more memory than most 68k Amiga systems and large drives that are more like mini versions of modern consoles. This is not possible even with the 3DO, Saturn, PS1, PS2, PS3, etc. up to x86-64 consoles. The 68k Amiga/CD32 was the lighter weight, smaller footprint and more affordable version of the x86(-64) PC that Commodore did not think they needed to upgrade to remain competitive.

Little of that matters now and none did when C= was trying to sell the CD32 in 93/94.


Quote:

I agree that value is relative to the market competition. The CD32 was a hard sell in the Europe market without reducing the price and having boxes on the shelve with a keyboard and mouse (with a nice pic showing the setup). Actually, it needs a drive of some kind to be useful which is no longer a cheap upgrade. Commodore missed the mark by not including enough value, including not enough expandability into a computer out of the box and not enhancing and cost reducing the chipset enough. They were close to what later upgradeable consoles became and could upgrade later versions of the CD32 like was planned with the CD32+. They were just too little too late.

You know that C= did have such a thing? It was called the A1200 and sales were meh.

Btw "upgradeable consoles", none of that really drove sales and the PS3 "OtherOS" was just a blip.

Adding all that to the CD32 would have pushed the price into "what are they smoking " territory.

So in short: CD32 made had no market in Europe and couldn't be sold in the US due to the patent issue making everything spec an afterthought.

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@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Hammer Quote: Mehdi Ali could have issued a direct order for the AA500 design in February 1991. But the AGA chips weren't ready in 1991!

From Commodore - The Final Years
Quote:

A1200 Origins In February 1992, Ali told Sydnes he wanted a “full court press� to produce an A500 class machine using the upcoming AA chipset by September 1992. All this even before the AA chipset was done beta testing and months before the A600 launch in May.

Try again.

From Commodore - The Final Years
Quote:

As work progressed on the graphics chip, Lisa, it became clear that the timeline was too ambitious. Jeff Porter set a more realistic expectation of late 1990. As Porter predicted, CSG produced the first prototype chips by late November 1990 and testing began.

AGA Lisa prototype testing began in Nov 1990.

CSG fabricated the prototype Lisa.

Quote:

By early December, the team felt the Lisa chip would be delivered ahead of schedule. All but the color table was working, a problem Raible felt he could overcome with a hack.

A bug was found in Lisa and a workaround hack can fix it.


Quote:

The AA chips continued to be revised and tested through early 1991 until they were good enough to use in the A1000 Plus and A3000 Plus prototypes. Dave Haynie managed to boot up his A3000 Plus with AmigaOS and the AA chipset in February 1991. In an interview given to Amiga Computing magazine, Irving Gould revealed, “As a matter of fact, there is a new chip set for the Amiga we’ve been working on now, I guess, for almost two years that should be ready this fall.�

This is before "more than six months" delays by Jeff Franks and Bill Sydnes.


Mehdi Ali has woken up and ordered a direct command in Feb 1992 which overrides Jeff Franks' and Bill Sydnes' failed direction.

Last edited by Hammer on 24-Nov-2024 at 10:17 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 24-Nov-2024 at 10:14 PM.

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@matthey

Quote:

I expect the SegaCD with 2.24 million units sold was a success too. It was based on the 1988 released Sega Genesis/Mega Drive with about 35 million units sold or about 37 million units sold counting Minis. The 1988 Genesis and 1990 SNES provided most of their value with the chipset like the original Amiga although the Amiga and Genesis chose a better CPU in the 68000. The Amiga CD32 AGA chipset was far from the strength of the CD32 and could be considered a weakness other than the fact it is small and backward compatible. The 68k Amiga/CD32 was able to upgrade to a 68EC020 and could have increased the CPU further while maintaining compatibility which would have caused incompatibility for the SegaCD. The CD32 could also better utilize added memory. Yes, the SNES and Genesis scaled to a more limited and cheaper lower spec but the CD32 could scale to a much higher spec, even multi-GHz CPUs and up to at least 2GiB of memory with a SoC ASIC that is cheaper than a meal. There are CD32 owners who have upgraded their console to a 68060@100MHz, more memory than most 68k Amiga systems and large drives that are more like mini versions of modern consoles. This is not possible even with the 3DO, Saturn, PS1, PS2, PS3, etc. up to x86-64 consoles. The 68k Amiga/CD32 was the lighter weight, smaller footprint and more affordable version of the x86(-64) PC that Commodore did not think they needed to upgrade to remain competitive.

From Jan 1994, the potential market size for the 68040/68LC040 accelerator for CD32 is about 166,000 units install base. This is not factoring the attachment rates. This is a small install base with a weak economy of scale for 3rd party add-on vendors. There's a data cache issue with Akiko C2P.

Later, CD32 had a 3rd party A1200 adapter expansion card. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYnvLVyL4G4


Jeff Porter's original CD32 spec has 8 MB RAM for a minor cost increase, hence 2 MB Chip RAM and 6 MB Fast RAM.

68060's asking price is outside of game console chip prices and it's too late for 1993 release.

Motorola doesn't offer 68040 class CPU for 68030 price. DSP56K is 24-bit fix point.

https://segaretro.org/History_of_the_Sega_Saturn/Development
Quote:

EGM reported that this new Saturn project was likely to use a Motorola 68030 processor. It also became increasingly unlikely that this new project would not be compatible with Mega Drive or Mega-CD software. (skip) On September 21st, 1993, Sega announced a joint venture with Hitachi with the intention of producing a "32-bit" video game multimedia machine, the idea being that Hitachi would be responsible for producing the processor

32-bit game console designs wins for Hitachi SuperH2 and MIPS R3000A (fix point).

PS4's APU and memory price is around $188 (Ref 1) around 2012 price which is about $114 in 1993 (Ref 2). It estimates Sony spends $88 for the GDDR5 memory (Ref 1), hence APU price is $100 at around 2012 or $61.12 in 1993.

AMD's profit margins from PS4 and XBO are razor-thin at around 10 to 20%. Motorola is not AMD.

AMD allocated lower tier CPU designs for PS4's Jaguar and PS5's Zen 2 with cost reduction e.g. missing second FADD pipeline and half the L3 cache. AMD has Zen 3 when PS5 has cost reduced Zen 2.

$61.12 in 1993 is the budget for AMD CPU, AMD GpGPU 3D, AMD GCN CU based DSP audio, AMD memory controllers, AMD competent cache coherent northbridge, AMD USB (for player control device IO) and southbridge links.

For game console contracts, AMD can execute 3 (CPU, GPU, DSP) for 1 deals to beat competitors like IBM (e.g. PPE/PowerPC A2) or Motorola/Freescale/NXP.

Intel can offer similar 3 for 1 deal. Intel was defeated by AMD for PS6 contract.

NVIDIA's CPU solution is from ARM, hence NVIDIA's value add is on CUDA GPU and GPU software support.

Qualcomm GPU is a weak sauce.


Reference,
1. https://www.guru3d.com/story/sony-ps4-production-cost-estimated-at-381/

2. https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator

3. https://www.kitguru.net/components/anton-shilov/amd-console-chip-business-is-thriving-margins-set-to-grow-to-over-20/

Your costings doesn't include running the company with R&D!

Beyond 68000 or 68EC020, Motorola is a bad partner for game consoles.

Microsoft subsidized NVIDIA's SoundStorm for original Xbox which is based on Motorola 56300-based digital signal processor (DSP). When MS's XBox subsidy is removed, NVIDIA removed Motorola 56300-based DSP from nForce 3.

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoundStorm
Nvidia decided the cost of including the SoundStorm SIP block on the dies of their chipsets was too high and was not included in nForce3 and beyond

On 3D with vector FMA3 and vector gather instructions, PS5's cost reduced Zen 2 design will crush 68060 design. AVX2 gather instruction can load 8 32-bit data elements from a single instruction. 68060 only has scalar load.

68060 doesn't have the front end design to mitigate the gap between multi-Ghz CPU vs external memory performance.

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_________________
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@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: Adding all that to the CD32 would have pushed the price into "what are they smoking " territory. So in short: CD32 made had no market in Europe and couldn't be sold in the US due to the patent issue making everything spec an afterthought.

You can always play the "What If Game"

What if C= had found a way for CD32 marketing
What if C= could have sold it on Christmas in the USA (patent issue)
What if C= would have lowered the price
What if C= would had AAA titles for the CD32
What if C= would have known how to subside the CD32 price via games.
What if C= had the money and know how to do everything right.

---

The PS1 that came 2 years later shuck up the whole market, some competitors disappeared, C= would had major troubles if if they would have done everything right on the hypothetical "What If Game"

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@OneTimer1

Quote:

The PS1 that came 2 years later shuck up the whole market, some competitors disappeared, C= would had major troubles if if they would have done everything right on the hypothetical "What If Game"

PS1's 3rd party developer relations and game studio buyouts started earlier than 1994.

For example, Sony demonstrated PlayStation's Ridge Racer to 3rd party developers in December 1993. Sony's early PlayStation game demos caused Osborne effect on competing platforms.

PlayStation's Ridge Racer roughly targeted Namco System 22 level.

The Namco System 21 "Polygonizer" is an arcade system board unveiled by Namco in 1988 with the game Winning Run.

Main CPU: 2x Motorola 68000 @ 12.288 MHz
DSP (used for performing 3D math): 4x Texas Instruments TMS320C25 @ 24.576 MHz


https://ridgeracer.fandom.com/wiki/Namco_System_22
Namco System 22 (released in 1992)
Main CPU: Motorola 68020 32-bit @ 24.576 MHz
DSP: 2x Texas Instruments TMS32025 @ 49.152 MHz (exact number of DSPs may vary)
GPU: Evans & Sutherland 'TR3' based GPU (Texture Mapping, Real-Time, Real-Visual, Rendering System)

R&D occurred before the product's release date.

PC's texture mapped 3D games released in 1993 and 1994 has R&D phase between 1991 to 1993. PC was chunky pixel ready for large scale texture mapped 3D game development.

R&D phase occurred before the product's release date.

During CD32's development and meeting with Mehdi Ali, Psygnosis and Bull Frog (associated with EA) was giving advice on low-cost improvements for CD32.

From Commodore the Inside Story - The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant by David John Pleasance
Quote:

Ian explained to Mehdi that with a few seemingly quite modest design changes, the CD32 could have an incredible boost in performance at very marginal additional cost. He also pointed out the benefits it would give developers like Psygnosis and other major players in the industry, who would find it easier to produce even better-quality products and enhance the reputation of the CD32 and the games publishers – a genuine ‘win-win’. Ian had not requested any financial reward for this – it seemed he simply wanted to offer considerably improved games performance and to be credited for his contribution. Well, it went exactly as expected. Mehdi was rude and ignorant, and clearly had no idea what Ian was talking about. But instead of just admitting that, he more or less turned on Ian, as though he ‘must be crazy telling us how to design our computers!’ I ushered Mehdi out of the building feeling very ashamed, and it was quite a while before I plucked up the courage to talk to Ian again. Luckily for me, Ian had realised what kind of a person Mehdi Ali was and held no bad feelings towards me. The real sting to this story is that Psygnosis subsequently sold their company to Sony Computer Entertainment Europe, with Ian Hetherington being made head of Sony PlayStation Europe – and I often wonder to myself: ‘If Mehdi Ali had not been such an obnoxious prick, would Commodore have had that technology?’

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_________________
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@matthey

Full 32-bit gaming PC-VGA's 4MB RAM equipped hard disk mass storage is closer to the 3MB RAM equipped CD-ROM mass storage game console target group.



Atari Jaguar
- Stock config 2MB RAM missed the 3MB RAM equipped CD-ROM game console target group i.e. PS1, Saturn and 3DO.
- Game cartridge can be expensive for 1994-era PC's 4MB RAM with hard disk game design.
- Stock storage solution is outside the 3MB RAM equipped CD-ROM game console target group.
- Not close to full 32-bit gaming PC's 4MB RAM equipped hard disk mass storage target.
- Weak exclusive games.


CD-i
- Not close to full 32-bit gaming PC-VGA's 4MB RAM equipped hard disk mass storage target.
- Slow 16-bit ALU 68000 CPU.
- Weak exclusive games.


Sega-CD
- Not close to full 32-bit gaming PC-VGA's 4MB RAM equipped hard disk mass storage target.
- 32X upgrade path confusion with Saturn.


SNES
+ Strong exclusive SNES games.
+ Cheap math processor upgrades with SuperFX and SuperFX2. SuperFX2 is fast Am386-40 or 68030-40 class.
+ Delivered arcade quality Street Fighter 2.



3DO
- Weaker exclusive games when compared to Saturn and PS1.
- Weaker 3D when compared to PS1 e.g. Tomb Raider 3DO port.
+ Delivered arcade quality Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo.


Quote:

@matthey, The PS1 fixed point integer 3D support was low quality and an upgraded CD32 that was closer to PC specs could have allowed PC games to more easily be ported to it.

Motorola's FPU from 68040 is expensive which is NOT game console chip price range.


Quote:

@matthey, . The 68k does not have the power problems that caused the first XBox to use PPC until newer fab processes allowed x86(-64) into consoles.

Nope, it's the Lisa Su factor. Lisa Su was the IBM person who interfaced IBM CELL team and Sony. Lisa Su was from IBM CPU division.

Lisa Su was vice president of IBM's Semiconductor Research and Development Center responsible for the strategic direction of IBM’s silicon technologies.

When Lisa Su gained AMD CEO position, Sony followed.

--------------------

68K didn't deliver Intel Coppermine @ 733 Mhz with vector FP units. The original Xbox prototype has AMD's K8 Duron before Bill Gates intervention.

Due to the original XBox CPU contract debacle, AMD CPU division didn't participate in Xbox 360's CPU contract competition. Hector Ruiz's AMD bought ATI in 2005.

In terms of TDP, AMD's K8 Turion 2X (dual core, 35W) can displace Intel Coppermine.

PS4's CPU is based on AMD's tablet/laptop Jaguar designs. Jaguar is effectively cost-reduced K8 (e.g. dual issue) with full 128-bit SIMD hardware.

PS5's CPU is based on AMD's half L3 cache Zen 2 laptop designs. The full CCD Ryzen Zen 2 desktop PC version is faster.

PS5's reduced cost Zen 2 CPU design is the precursor to compact Zen 4C and Zen 5C designs.

Think of IBM's PowerPC 602 cost reduced vs fat PowerPC 601 direction for 3DO M2.

With Lisa Su, AMD knows IBM's tactics for game consoles.

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@matthey

Quote:

Without chipset development delays, a 68EC030&AA+@28MHz with at least double the AGA chip mem bandwidth, 8MiB max chip mem (CD32 maybe 3 or 4MiB?), real chunky modes, faster blitter and 16-bit sound would have made the CD32 much more competitive even without 3D hardware

68030's IPC is not DSP level.

Namco System 22's CPU is a Motorola 68020 @ 24.576 MHz with at least two Texas Instruments TMS32025 @ 49.152 MHz.
https://ridgeracer.fandom.com/wiki/Namco_System_22#System_22_Specifications

Namco System 22 also has Evans & Sutherland's TR3 (texture mapper).

Evans & Sutherland graphics workstation has TR3 and DSP320 array (geometry).

PS1 targeted Namco System 22 level e.g. Ridge Racer port.

PS1's MIPS R3000A CPU @ 33 Mhz and MIPS based GTE @ 58Mhz roughtly covers Namco System 22's weak 68020 CPU @ 24.5 Mhz and two TMS32025 @49 Mhz (geoometry).

Note why Dave Haynie was pushing for DSP3210 @ 50Mhz with AGA.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: Jeff Porter's original CD32 spec has 8 MB RAM for a minor cost increase, hence 2 MB Chip RAM and 6 MB Fast RAM.

Are you sure about that? The A4000 has a jumper to enable 8MB Chip RAM, which suggests they were thinking of doing the same in the CD32.

In any case, the consensus from subsidiaries was that 2MB was the sweet spot, and I agree. It meant the same game would work on the CD32 and a stock A1200. This was a point in favor of the CD32 that other consoles didn't have, and was important given the small user base. Developers could produce basically the same games on both platforms, with CD enhancements that A1200 users could also access if they got a CD-ROM drive.

By this time CD-ROM drives were becoming standard on PCs too, so the CD32 could be seen as an entry-level computer without paying for stuff you didn't need for games. All it needed for full computer functionality was a keyboard, mouse, writable storage and comms. Those last two functions could be provided via the internal serial port, which was quite slow - but then how much data did you really need to transfer?

Quote:

68060's asking price is outside of game console chip prices and it's too late for 1993 release.

Indeed. There's no way that was happening. And it wasn't just the CPU. You would also want plenty of really fast RAM, and the pcb (and therefore the whole console) would have to be considerably larger. You would also need a bigger power supply (not a repurposed Plus 4 psu). The result would be a ridiculously high price for a console even if the CPU itself was cheap.

BTW someone recently gave me an Xbox, and I was surprised by how bulky and heavy it was. You turn it on and the hard drive whirs away for quite a while as it boots up. It's practically an entire PC in a box! The PlayStation 2 is much more compact and more convenient. I carry my mine (original larger version) around in a laptop bag with all the accessories. The Xbox would need a larger bag, and be a pain to carry as the main unit alone weighs over 3kg, almost twice the weight of the PlayStation 2. That's the price you pay for making a console from 'conventional' PC parts.

A console should be small and light. The CD32 was better than the CDTV in this regard, and still had room for lots of internal expansion. I made an internal floppy drive interface and installed the drive into the right side of the unit. I plugged in a PC keyboard in via an adapter I made, and a mouse, turning it into the equivalent of a stock A1200 with CD-ROM drive - only more compact and 'console-like'. I really regret selling that machine. A CD32 is listed on TradeMe (NZ auction site) right now, and I'm hoping the price won't go too high.