@Dandy

You might want to check the dates of the posts you are replying to.

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@herewegoagain

Quote:

herewegoagain wrote: @joerg Quote: The old versions of AmigaOS were completed before AmigaOS4 was started, everyone working on AmigaOS4 knew how the previous versions worked and had access to the old sources. Since the goal of AmigaOS4 was to create a compatible, but PPC native, update of AmigaOS 3.x the AmigaOS4 developers didn't have to be involved in the development of older versions of AmigaOS but only had to know how the old versions worked. And Amiga Inc have access to those same sources. Or do you say they do not understand how it works ...

Exactly.
Or do you seriously believe that a CEO inbetween "stacked old computers and card boxes" had the ability to understand how AmigaOS works?

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herewegoagain wrote: ... Quote: If you believe everything Bill "On Schedule and Rockin'" McEwen writes but nothing from Rogue for example you are of course free to continue to imagine Amiga Inc.'s "OS5" would be an AmigaOS version 5.x, but don't be surprised when you find out what it actually is (if it exists at all). Yeah, I'm about sick of people trolling with that slogan. And that is trolling. ...

If this is trolling, then your echoing of empty phrases like "Ainc deserves our faith" is trolling as well...

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Dandy
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@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @voyager2007 ... Even in the EU, you can't take someone elses source code, copy its function and call it your own, ... ...

Nonsense.
Of course you can - no, actually you have to.

But you should be aware of the possible consequences...

If one copies someone elses source code and calls it his own then this is a crime.
And a crime has to be commited first, before one can go to the court and sue the thief.

Here you cannot sue on someone intenting to commit a crime...

"When it's done", you know?

Last edited by Dandy on 22-Oct-2007 at 01:11 PM.

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Dandy
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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: @Dandy You might want to check the dates of the posts you are replying to.

To discover what exactly?
That I haven't seen them when they were written and answered immediately?
That's why I'm answering today...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy
Quote:

Quote: Dandy wrote: @SpaceDruid You might want to check the dates of the posts you are replying to. To discover what exactly? That I haven't seen them when they were written and answered immediately? That's why I'm answering today...

That the thread started over a year ago on Sept 14, 2006 and until Wegster brought it back to life it last had a post on Sept 27, 2006. So lots of what you are responding to are comments before last years Amiwest, before AI cancelled the contract, before "Its released" before either lawsuit, etc.
-Tig

Last edited by Tigger on 22-Oct-2007 at 04:29 PM.

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@voyager2007

Quote:

voyager2007 wrote: Sorry, I don't have time ATM to dig thoroughly thru the documents, but take a look at this: Document #26 (Declaration by Evert Carton) IMO, Evert Carton says in paragraphs 26 and 27, that AInc. didn't give Hyperion the source code to OS 3.5 and 3.9, because they didn't have it, and that it would've been required to develop OS 4.0. So, I think that the OS 4.0 kernel was developed from scratch.

Exec is in Rom, so its part of 3.1 and Hyperion provided us the document to prove they got 3.1, plus we have the comments.

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Do you have links to the postings that you're referring to? I think those would be interesting to read!

Search for Ben Hermans and Exec-SG and you'll find lots of interesting comments about it.

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You might also want to look at Document #28, a declaration by HJF, containing his contract with Hyperion. If I read it correctly, it says that Hyperion gets a binary license only.

You need to read it close, 2.02 makes it quite clear that money and only money keeps Hyperion from owning the source code, that is not a reason for Hyperion to not deliver it to AI.

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A strange item from that contract is the 400 man hours section. So, Hyperion demanded that they work at least 20 x 20 hours per month, that'd be 10 hours per day and developer (both Friedens), at least. So, who wants to volunteer to develop software under such a contract?

I'd love to work under this contract, I dont have to finish anything and they have to pay me until I think I am done. This is the most awesome software contract ever given, now it sucks for Hyperion, but as a programmer, I would love this contract. It doesnt prevent me from working on other projects, there is no non-compete, this is a gravy train contract, and those Frieden boys like gravy.

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Anyhow, IMO, neither contract (the one between AInc and Hyp, and the one between Hyp and the Friedens) contains a full description on what exactly will happen to the source code. If I read the contract with the Friedens correctly, they own all of the source code.

Actually all the source owned by Hyperion goes to AI once the 25K is paid, according to the Friedens contract, Hyperion doesnt have the Exec-SG code because they havent been paid in full, so Hyperion needs to pay them and give the code to AI.

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So, what was it again that AInc can do to obtain ownership of that source code? Sue Hyperion?

Absolutely, Hyperion has delivered no code to AI, so they are obviously in breach of the buy-out clause. Once they provide the code, AI might still want to sue them over not getting enough stuff, but at this point, they have delivered nothing. In addtition, according to several of the OS 4.0 people, Hyperion is also in trouble because Hyperion doesnt have transferable licenses for the object code only parts of the OS, which are also clearly called out in the contract.
-Tig

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Without going to specifics, I like many keep a scorecard. I haven't been someone who believes anything I hear when since the "Classic" days when I hear "REAL SOON NOW" attached to anyone's messages or announcements. RSN in "Amiga" years is like "dog years"..

It's not that I don't want to be positive but care needs to be taken not to build up unrealistic expecations of users. Over the years, the number of announcements that haven't came true is larger than things that came true. It's very difficult to believe what you see from them, and (IMHO) things that you read here are getting more difficult to believe. As the community is shrinking so it the objectivity of what's really happening is as well..

@Tigger

I wrote:
Quote:

You might also want to look at Document #28, a declaration by HJF, containing his contract with Hyperion. If I read it correctly, it says that Hyperion gets a binary license only.

But I was referring to this document (#28 not #26).

Sorry, copy and paste error.

@Tigger

Quote:

You need to read it close, 2.02 makes it quite clear that money and only money keeps Hyperion from owning the source code, that is not a reason for Hyperion to not deliver it to AI.

You're right. Guess I was too tired when reading it previously!

Quote:

I'd love to work under this contract, I dont have to finish anything and they have to pay me until I think I am done. This is the most awesome software contract ever given, now it sucks for Hyperion, but as a programmer, I would love this contract. It doesnt prevent me from working on other projects, there is no non-compete, this is a gravy train contract, and those Frieden boys like gravy.

You're right again: The contract contains no provision for being overdue. Also it explicitly mentions (in the Appendix) SMP capability. Does OS4 have that? If not, then it's still not finished.

But it looks like fairly regular contract, at least for European standards. Non-compete sections for freelancers aren't very common, I haven't seen them yet. But I haven't been self-employed for over a decade. What's missing is what happens in the case when the deadlines cannot be kept. (Is there a timeline mentioned at all in the contract? I didn't see one.)

The monetary compensation, 30,000 bucks per man month (a man month being 400 hours as mentioned before), plus 10 bucks royalties per copy look quite OK for a freelancing contract. Anyhow, If they worked 6 years on it, then that would sum up to over 2 million bucks, the royalties of already sold copies not counted.

Um, yeah. I guess, I would've done it for less money! (AmigaOS being my favorite platform, and all!)

What I still don't get is, how Hyperion believed that they could pull it off in only 6 months. Especially with the huge feature set that they requested. Any reasonable calculation would've counted in person years, not months. I would've estimated about 3-6 person months just for planning the implementation.

@voyager2007

Quote:

voyager2007 wrote: You're right again: The contract contains no provision for being overdue. Also it explicitly mentions (in the Appendix) SMP capability. Does OS4 have that? If not, then it's still not finished. But it looks like fairly regular contract, at least for European standards. Non-compete sections for freelancers aren't very common, I haven't seen them yet. But I haven't been self-employed for over a decade. What's missing is what happens in the case when the deadlines cannot be kept. (Is there a timeline mentioned at all in the contract? I didn't see one.)

No SMP yet, and there is no timeline in the contract, which is just ludicrous, if they didnt sign up for a schedule, they should have signed up for a cost We often put non-compete or exclusive work sections in our monthly contracts because if we are paying for 200 hours a person per month (or 160 as we normally do) I dont want them spending a bunch of time on other projects, especially when they are working out of there home. My Lockheed counterpart tells a funny story about the freelancer writing the exact same code for 3 divisions and being triple payed (120 hours a week plus some overtime) and it was going so good for him till the big show when all 3 versions were going to be rolled out and they realized that they had all been paying him to write a very similar program.
Quote:

What I still don't get is, how Hyperion believed that they could pull it off in only 6 months. Especially with the huge feature set that they requested. Any reasonable calculation would've counted in person years, not months. I would've estimated about 3-6 person months just for planning the implementation.

Thats been Bernd and my comments several times of the years. The other issue is that even if they did get it done in 6 months, they would be in the brothers for 180,000 Euros, thats the profit from over 4000 units plus paying for everything else, they were never going to make money from the venture. Thats why this was always about getting the right to use the trademarks and not about making OS 4 for the community.
-Tig

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@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: @Tigger Quote: Tigger wrote: @voyager2007 ... Even in the EU, you can't take someone elses source code, copy its function and call it your own, ... ... Nonsense. Of course you can - no, actually you have to. But you should be aware of the possible consequences... If one copies someone elses source code and calls it his own then this is a crime. And a crime has to be commited first, before one can go to the court and sue the thief. Here you cannot sue on someone intenting to commit a crime... "When it's done", you know?

??? I dont understand your post at all. You say you have to do it that way, then you say its illegal (which is what I said) then you said you can't sue one for intent to commit a crime. They have done this, its not intent.
-Tig

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@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Dandy ... So lots of what you are responding to are comments before last years Amiwest, before AI cancelled the contract, before "Its released" before either lawsuit, etc. ...

Yes - and what's wrong with that?
I don't seem to get your point...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

I think this quote is reliant to the checking of dates before posting, comment made earlier.

Quote:

Aha. Just "two months ago" AInc contacted the Friedens "to write the OS5 kernel for them". Didn't Bill say they (AInc) had been working on it during the last 18 months?

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Dandy Quote: Dandy wrote: @Tigger Nonsense. Of course you can - no, actually you have to. But you should be aware of the possible consequences... If one copies someone elses source code and calls it his own then this is a crime. And a crime has to be commited first, before one can go to the court and sue the thief. Here you cannot sue on someone intenting to commit a crime... "When it's done", you know? ??? I dont understand your post at all. You say you have to do it that way, then you say its illegal (which is what I said) then you said you can't sue one for intent to commit a crime. They have done this, its not intent. -Tig

What I tried to say with that simply was that you actually can "take someone elses source code, copy its function and call it your own" here in Europe - there is no one that prevents you from doing so.

But here are laws in place and according to them it is illegal and you have to expect legal actions if you do it.

In order to get sued you even have to commit the deed first.

Legal actions can only take place, if you really did it.

So it is a precondition here in Europe in order to get sued that one commits a crime first.

And that's what I meant - without comitting the deed first you can't get sued here (Exception: Terorism) - as you stated: "Even in the EU, you can't take someone elses source code...".

Therefor my answer: "Of course you can - no, actually you have to" (in order to get sued)...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

Thread question : Is he the only one to see Bill's Q&A as positive?

At this point the only thing I'll see positive from Amiga Inc. is a total hardware/software Amiga solution. Until then this is all just a delay of start of game.

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: @Tigger Therefor my answer: "Of course you can - no, actually you have to" (in order to get sued)...

So basically you wrote a really long message that you had to then explain in another long message just to say I was right. Great.

-Tig

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@BrianK

Thread answer is: No, their attorney too.

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@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Dandy ... So basically you wrote a really long message that you had to then explain in another long message just to say I was right. Great. -Tig

Aside from the fact that I've already seen longer postings here - yes, I wrote a message that you appearently were not able (-> "??? I dont understand your post at all") or not willing to understand and I took the additional time to explain it further.

A simple "Thanks for taking the extra time for explaining" would already have been fine - no need for subtle innuendos (just shades a strange light on you)...

Last edited by Dandy on 24-Oct-2007 at 10:48 AM.

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Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Maybe is it a language barrier :

for Tigger, "can't" would mean "don't have the right to",

an for you "can't" would only mean "not able to".

Feel free to correct me.

Peace and harmony.
Woon

Last edited by woon on 24-Oct-2007 at 11:17 AM.

@woon

Quote:

woon wrote: @Dandy Maybe is it a language barrier : for Tigger, "can't" would mean "don't have the right to", an for you "can't" would only mean "not able to". Feel free to correct me. Peace and harmony.

Thats exactly right. If someone says "you cant go around shooting people in the head" in Dandyspeak that would be not true, its illegal and eventually the cops capture you but they way he looks at things, you can go around doing it. The problem with his response in my book is by his very answer he is proving my point. What Hyperion did was illegal and the court and the copyright laws arent going to allow them to do it. You can put the entire Beatles Catalog up for download on your computer at home, but in a court of law thats not going to be a very good defense (I CAN DO IT) when they Apple Music's lawyers find you sitting in your parents basement.
-Tig

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